Is RuneScape's technology obsolete?

[glasscube]

Java's garbage collection makes me want to barf.

 

That is all.

 

Edit: How does having a faster CPU reduce overhead? The overhead is still there, it doesn't magically go away.

[fragg]

Everything about runescape is obsolete now. The code, the graphics, the gameplay. Back in the day, maybe saying you were able to click more than another person made you "better", but it doesnt take a college grad to figure out how to play and be "good" at this game. It requires no skill, and you can say ppl fail and suck at rs, its more like they fail and suck at life more than rs. Any other MMO requires some sort of skill to it in order to do something and progress and be considered good, all you have to do is click one time on rs and your character does everything in combat for you. It's a fun game to pass time, maybe 3-4 years ago, but everything else is so much more advanced and runescape just seems to be stalling over in the corner. ill give the life of this game about 1 year, 2 max, all that will be left is the jagex fan boys.

[zotto]

Jard,

 

You make some good technical points. But I think you *vastly* underestimate the non-technical importance of RS being a browser-based game. The portability and universality of the game have been major factors in its success, and changing to a downloadable model would be, IMO, a risky move that would cost them far more customers than it would gain.

I totally agree with this point.

 

I actually play runescape because it is a browser-based game. That is because I play on my work laptop when I am home. That is allowed. What is not allowed is that I install programs myself on the computer. I actually don't have the rights to do so. And this work computer isn't build for resource hogging games of course. A modest graphics card and semi-outdated CPU.

 

And when I don't play on this computer I play on my own computer.

 

And the ability to switch between computers without effort is just great. Imagine having a client installed on several computers who all need to be updated regularly with massive patches. I couldn't even switch between computers within a time span of one minute like I do currently.

 

The browser-based aspect is personally for me one of the main selling points of runescape. I probably wouldn't play it if it was a client-based game.

[Jard_Y_Dooku]

Jard,

 

You make some good technical points. But I think you *vastly* underestimate the non-technical importance of RS being a browser-based game. The portability and universality of the game have been major factors in its success, and changing to a downloadable model would be, IMO, a risky move that would cost them far more customers than it would gain.

I totally agree with this point.

 

I actually play runescape because it is a browser-based game. That is because I play on my work laptop when I am home. That is allowed. What is not allowed is that I install programs myself on the computer. I actually don't have the rights to do so. And this work computer isn't build for resource hogging games of course. A modest graphics card and semi-outdated CPU.

 

And when I don't play on this computer I play on my own computer.

 

And the ability to switch between computers without effort is just great. Imagine having a client installed on several computers who all need to be updated regularly with massive patches. I couldn't even switch between computers within a time span of one minute like I do currently.

 

The browser-based aspect is personally for me one of the main selling points of runescape. I probably wouldn't play it if it was a client-based game.

 

I'm not disagreeing that RuneScape being browser-based does have some advantages, such as being able to play games while you are supposed to be working, studying or doing something other than playing games. ;)

 

But it's all about architecture. If RuneScape were out-of-browser and supported the ability to run from a thumb/flash/stick/whatever-the-hell-they-changed-the-name-to-now-but-whatever-you-know-what-I'm-talking-about-anyways drive, you wouldn't be impaired by access right preventing you from installing software, since nothing would be written to protected directories like C:\Program Files. Plus if you had it on a flash drive you wouldn't need to install it on multiple computers. Download once, play anywhere. Also, RuneScape being a browser game doesn't inherently make its patches small. It's (a) due to Jagex's streaming update architecture and (B) they simply don't release large patches.

 

So I think the flash drive approach is a pretty awesome (and even better) alternative to browser games. For one, no Java needed. 100% pure, native code, with all required libraries packaged in. Any other dependent code is in system libraries which are guaranteed to exist (obviously). There could be 2 executable files for each of the 3 (or more) major platforms. runescape[Caution: Executable File] and updater[Caution: Executable File] for Windows, runescape.app and updater.app for Mac OS X, and runescape and updater for Linux/X11. Whatever platform you're on, you run the runescape[[Caution: Executable File]/.app] file, it runs the updater[[Caution: Executable File]/.app] if needed. The updater program then updates the game executables for ALL platforms in one go (ftw) and all the resource files. Everything stays on the flash drive.

 

This would be an advantage over the browser, since you wouldn't have to download all those cache files every time you play on a new computer like you have to now, and you wouldn't be impaired by lack of a JVM or almost any permission restrictions. AND you wouldn't leave junk on other peoples' computers...

 

I am definitely taking this approach with the MMO I'm working on. It will have an install option too, creating all kinds of nice shortcuts and all that. I think the operating system agnostic flash drive approach would be super cool though.

[RSBDavid]

 

Also, Sun/Oracle has gotten very good with their VM optimizations. In an object oriented sense, java is just as fast or faster than C++ because it spreads out the work. In C++, when you want to lose an object / garbage collect, you have to do it while the program is running. With java, you can forget about it and the VM will take care of it when thread executing isn't so processor intensive.

Yes, because not learning programming concepts and relying on a virtual machine to do the dirty work is a good idea.

[Jard_Y_Dooku]

Also, Sun/Oracle has gotten very good with their VM optimizations. In an object oriented sense, java is just as fast or faster than C++ because it spreads out the work. In C++, when you want to lose an object / garbage collect, you have to do it while the program is running. With java, you can forget about it and the VM will take care of it when thread executing isn't so processor intensive.

Yes, because not learning programming concepts and relying on a virtual machine to do the dirty work is a good idea.

 

You highlighted the problem Java programmers have perfectly.

[Alpha_ONE]

I completely agree with you.

[Obtaurian]

Everything about runescape is obsolete now. The code, the graphics, the gameplay. Back in the day, maybe saying you were able to click more than another person made you "better", but it doesnt take a college grad to figure out how to play and be "good" at this game. It requires no skill, and you can say ppl fail and suck at rs, its more like they fail and suck at life more than rs. Any other MMO requires some sort of skill to it in order to do something and progress and be considered good, all you have to do is click one time on rs and your character does everything in combat for you. It's a fun game to pass time, maybe 3-4 years ago, but everything else is so much more advanced and runescape just seems to be stalling over in the corner. ill give the life of this game about 1 year, 2 max, all that will be left is the jagex fan boys.

 

This paragraph is so untrue that I've lost several braincells just trying to comprehend its stupidity. Runescape is what you make of it. Some people like to do things that are just point and click tasks, and some people like to do things that require actual skill. That's the beauty of Runescape -- you play it how you want to.

[headshot007111]

I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned this already but; @ the original topic question, yes. The reason RS was originally made in Java is because it can "run anywhere". For a long time, many RS players have played from crappy old PCs, or with dial-up internet. Java allowed the game to be playable under those conditions.

 

But the reason that it's obsolete these days, is that more and more people are getting new computers (which at this point are overkill for RS max setting requirements) and dialup is pretty much a thing of the past.

 

 

If anything needs to be done, it should be an "optional" upgrade. The current web based client would still work, but the same game/servers/characters will be accessible through the downloaded version of RS.

[Jard_Y_Dooku]

I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned this already but; @ the original topic question, yes. The reason RS was originally made in Java is because it can "run anywhere". For a long time, many RS players have played from crappy old PCs, or with dial-up internet. Java allowed the game to be playable under those conditions.

 

But the reason that it's obsolete these days, is that more and more people are getting new computers (which at this point are overkill for RS max setting requirements) and dialup is pretty much a thing of the past.

 

 

If anything needs to be done, it should be an "optional" upgrade. The current web based client would still work, but the same game/servers/characters will be accessible through the downloaded version of RS.

 

Please stop citing this. Stop, stop, stop. Java is not any better than any other language for that. No language in the world is going to change the speed of your Internet connection. It's all about how much you're sending. Java doesn't inherently send less data than other languages.

 

I would be fine with an optional downloadable C++ client. As long as I don't have to tolerate the slowness of Java.

 

EDIT: Even better pic.

 

[Pirate_Felix]

If i play runescape i lagg like hell.

I can run Guild Wars, Warcraft 3, Oblivion and Starcraft at the same time and not lagg.

[RSBDavid]

If i play runescape i lagg like hell.

I can run Guild Wars, Warcraft 3, Oblivion and Starcraft at the same time and not lagg.

 

 

But kids in Africa --who use the money we donate for food to buy laptops and wifi-- can't afford GW,SC, or Oblivion. <<SARCASM

 

Runescape is built for accessibility not performance. It shows in the way it performs. Why do you think people in India can play? Stellar Dawn will be the same way.

[glasscube]

If i play runescape i lagg like hell.

I can run Guild Wars, Warcraft 3, Oblivion and Starcraft at the same time and not lagg.

 

 

But kids in Africa --who use the money we donate for food to buy laptops and wifi-- can't afford GW,SC, or Oblivion.

 

Runescape is built for accessibility not performance. It shows in the way it performs. Why do you think people in India can play? Stellar Dawn will be the same way.

Runescape is so bloated now I wouldn't be surprised if a computer that can play RS can play GW. Oblivion may be pushing it but GW has always been very good on catering to people with multiple different systems.

 

Starcraft? Seriously? That game can be run on any computer.

[Jard_Y_Dooku]

If i play runescape i lagg like hell.

I can run Guild Wars, Warcraft 3, Oblivion and Starcraft at the same time and not lagg.

 

 

But kids in Africa --who use the money we donate for food to buy laptops and wifi-- can't afford GW,SC, or Oblivion.

 

Runescape is built for accessibility not performance. It shows in the way it performs. Why do you think people in India can play? Stellar Dawn will be the same way.

 

Umm... I think kids in Africa have more to worry about than playing computer games...

 

You could just as easily build a more accessible game in C++. And I'll bet there are people in India with better computers than me. :P

[Sbrideau]

About using C++ on more than one platform, I think it really depends on what code you use for the library things. If you use code that works only on Windows for windows computers, then you're going to have a different library that is just for windows. Same goes with other platforms. If you want a C++ application to be portable to any platforms, you have to use code that is standard to all the platforms you plan on making it play on.

 

And rs isn't that slow. My laptop isn't that strong and I don't have any lag while playing HD resizable with most settings on high. Plus when I click I don't have a delay at all, it really depends on what you have on your computer and also your internet connection. Ok Java is slower than C++, but with processing power in today's computers, it compensates and the Java program runs almost as fast as the C++ one despite being on a VM. And I'm sure that those Java programmers also learned how to code in C++ when they were studying, so they would know the concept of managing the memory themselves.

[jessy87]

you sir, have always made posts that some seemed to consider "extreme" or something of that manner. I find this post to be a refreshing look on things, yet somewhat agree with you. It maybe obsolete, but its not so far gone that i feel that is the appropriate term for it.

[Jard_Y_Dooku]

About using C++ on more than one platform, I think it really depends on what code you use for the library things. If you use code that works only on Windows for windows computers, then you're going to have a different library that is just for windows. Same goes with other platforms. If you want a C++ application to be portable to any platforms, you have to use code that is standard to all the platforms you plan on making it play on.

 

And rs isn't that slow. My laptop isn't that strong and I don't have any lag while playing HD resizable with most settings on high. Plus when I click I don't have a delay at all, it really depends on what you have on your computer and also your internet connection. Ok Java is slower than C++, but with processing power in today's computers, it compensates and the Java program runs almost as fast as the C++ one despite being on a VM. And I'm sure that those Java programmers also learned how to code in C++ when they were studying, so they would know the concept of managing the memory themselves.

 

First paragraph: you're the most accurate person to post as yet. It does depend on what code you use for the "library things", which is a good point. However, think about this: in Java, the default libraries are extensive, and support a good amount of whatever you could want to do in a program. C++ standard libraries are very basic and don't have any support for things like GUI and networking. Some see this as a disadvantage because it "inherently" makes programs less cross-platform. However, there are a great amount of toolkits available for cross-platform C++ programming, such as Qt and wxWidgets. Qt is simply amazing, it's one of the best software development frameworks I've ever seen. 99.9% of all their classes (just like Java) are fully cross-platform. So if you write a Windows app with the Qt library, you've automatically written a Mac OS X and Linux/X11 app.

 

Now, you don't use different libraries for each platform, you don't write 3 separate programs. What you do is use a toolkit like Qt (or make your own, but that's generally not a good idea), which itself hooks into the native libraries of each platform and provides you with an interface that is cross-platform. Behind the scenes, when you want to create a window, for example, it'll call the Win32 API if you're using Windows, it'll call Cocoa or Carbon on Mac OS X, and it'll call X11 on Linux/UNIX. All this is transparent to you. However, there comes a time when you need to do things beyond what any particular toolkit supports and this applies to any language, Java OR C++. For example, I am writing an application now that requires advanced interaction with the window manager of the underlying platform. I need to be able to get a tree of windows and their properties running in the current session - including their handle (ID#), name, bounds (location on screen), etc. So what I do is create a class to wrap this functionality. Inside my class I have switches inside each method, so for my "get window text" function it will run a different block of code depending on what platform it's running on, and throughout my programs I call that abstract function I made (so, like, WindowManager::getWindowName) INSTEAD of using the underlying platform's methods.

 

 

Second paragraph: at my university, nearly everything is Java. The kids in my courses won't be learning C++ until our fourth semester, or even not at all. Sad. What you introduce people to first is what they become most familiar with (most of the time). I myself started with PHP as my first programming language, but feel far more comfortable programming in C++ and C# because I took it upon myself to learn it all. Unfortunately university forces Java upon me, which I really don't care for...

 

you sir, have always made posts that some seemed to consider "extreme" or something of that manner. I find this post to be a refreshing look on things, yet somewhat agree with you. It maybe obsolete, but its not so far gone that i feel that is the appropriate term for it.

 

It's my specialty. ;)