Is RuneScape's technology obsolete?

[Jard_Y_Dooku]

For a while now, I have maintained that Java sucks and I hate it. I believe this started when I entered university, being forced to use it to write the usual introductory course nonsense like a program to put a list of books in order. Or maybe it was before. But anyways, the point it, I hate Java. The language is old and lacks too many simple features, it's slow as hell, and it's also slow.

 

Every single other game I've ever played (which were written in C++) has had no performance issues and worked fine, and with better graphics. Maybe Jagex's programmers are just horrible. Maybe Java is just slow. Probably both. No, wait, it IS both. I played World of Warcraft for 5 days and found the GUI far better designed. It was also not slow. But before I encounter a slew of "K DEN GO PLEH WOW NOOB" I will say I don't intend to leave RuneScape - I still prefer its gameplay and simpler (though in some ways lacking) user experience over WoW's.

 

RuneScape is a great game with a great background and storyline. *pauses* Shut up. But its current implementation is horrible.

 

One of Java's supposed advantages is "write once, run anywhere". That became, "write once, debug anywhere." Jagex also thinks that RuneScape being a browser-based game is all great and fine. I say BS - RuneScape being a browser game means more memory and resources and the overhead of a plugin. Plus it's plain annoying. I don't want to have to open a damn web browser to play a game. I've been wanting a desktop application for so long now. Despite Java's sluglike performance, a desktop application would be a little better and would be less annoying since I don't have to open a stupid browser. It's not hard for them to make a desktop client. I've been able to code Java applications that worked out of the box as an applet OR a desktop application. It's just a few extra lines of code.

 

It's been proven for years that Java applets are dying. Go on Stack Overflow, there's plenty of threads about it. I really don't think the "PLEH ANYWHUR HURR DURR" slogan that Jagex loves to use is really that much of an advantage. Browser or not, RuneScape is STILL a large program. There's no difference between loading for an hour and installing for an hour. RuneScape is just smaller than other games because everything is such low detail. I'm more apt to download a game than play a browser one, because odds are the downloadable one is better. Also, no one mention s

 

ecurity. RuneScape is a signed applet, so it has permission to do basically whatever it wants. Keylog you, install viruses, etc. Not that Jagex would do that, but the technological capability is there. What would be even better, but is nearly impossible for obvious reasons, is to rewrite RuneScape completely, in C++, as a desktop application. Then again, companies do do radical changes requiring massive resources and effort. RSHD was a pretty huge update. Starting from scratch is even more demanding, but hey, it can be done.

 

The thing is, is it worth it? Yes this would require a huge amount of resources from Jagex, and 99% chance it'll never happen, but there's also a 99% chance RuneScape will never keep up with or will always be 10 years behind everything else. Despite our own ramblings that graphics don't matter, many of you WILL admit they do matter to an extent, and no matter what WE think, a very LARGE number of other people DO think they matter - a lot. What do you guys think about all this?

 

PS - Check out Google's NaCl project. It's kind of interesting. http://code.google.com/p/nativeclient/

 

This is so great it has to go on the first page.

 

[RSBDavid]

I 100% agree with you.

 

It wouldn't be too hard to rewrite the game in c++. I remember someone writing a c++ script which could log on to the Runescape servers and move the character with no gui at all. I think that with Runescape in c++, Jagex could provide an add-on sdk and allow users to modify the UI. I think it could be done in a couple of years or less if they are willing to hire some individuals with a good understanding of c++.

Edited May 24, 2010 by laura0077

[Jard_Y_Dooku]

I believe World of Warcraft allows you to script your user interface using a popular scripting language called Lua.

[RSBDavid]

I believe World of Warcraft allows you to script your user interface using a popular scripting language called Lua.

Yes they do. Lua and c++ go really well together. Of course Jagex would have to implement that alongside it's RuneScript language.

[Sy_Accursed]

I think they fact they just implemented direct X and such kind of undermines 90% of ur argument.

As does the existence of some very successful browser free game launchers.

[Fellfrosch6]

While I do feel that rewriting the entire RS code in C++ would be cumbersome and a waste of resources, I also think that creating a capable game client to run from the desktop rather than through an internet browser is a useful step forward for those with more capable machines. The game client will complement the browser version, rather than replace it.

 

With the various graphics upgrades, the most recent being Direct X implementation, the RS graphics are quite scalable. The use of a stand-alone game client could allow for improved graphics in terms of increasing draw distance, polygon count, shadow resolution etc., and could help increase the UI's reactivity and eliminate dead clicks and those short, annoying pauses after clicks.

 

But, I'm just speculating. I'm no computer code whiz.

[knight10071]

Besides the fact it would take a huge amount of time to rewrite everything, I think you should consider the following:

 

If my observations are correct, practically anything that is a desktop-application can be hacked. Hacked as in altering the game itself, not stealing passwords or any of that nonsense.

I would gladly take the slowish performance and sub-par graphics over a bunch of hackers/scriptkiddies any day.

[J35u5_M4]

I think, you're right.

 

They SHOULD make a desktop client with improved graphics and stuff, perhaps they could keep the browser one and launch a desktop one? With better graphics so people who can afford to download the game will do so, and those who don't will not. But thi.

[RSBDavid]

Besides the fact it would take a huge amount of time to rewrite everything, I think you should consider the following:

 

If my observations are correct, practically anything that is a desktop-application can be hacked. Hacked as in altering the game itself, not stealing passwords or any of that nonsense.

I would gladly take the slowish performance and sub-par graphics over a bunch of hackers/scriptkiddies any day.

 

Runescape can be injected by Java byte-code using BCEL just as easily as desktop application else can be injected by a dynamic-link library. The only hacks they could do are client side anyways. The server would still have to verify they have the correct GP for a certain item, levels for a quest, etc.

 

The most harm a user could do is switch a bronze sword to a Armadyl godsword and look bad-[wagon] on a pk video.

[Jard_Y_Dooku]

I think they fact they just implemented direct X and such kind of undermines 90% of ur argument.

As does the existence of some very successful browser free game launchers.

 

I think they fact they u just posted a 2 sentince post with no actuel argumint and such kind of underminez 90% of ur argument. Do you even know what DirectX is, what OpenGL is?

 

Besides the fact it would take a huge amount of time to rewrite everything, I think you should consider the following:

 

If my observations are correct, practically anything that is a desktop-application can be hacked. Hacked as in altering the game itself, not stealing passwords or any of that nonsense.

I would gladly take the slowish performance and sub-par graphics over a bunch of hackers/scriptkiddies any day.

 

Anything that is a computer program can be 'hacked'. Java applets are no different, and are in fact easier to 'hack' as you can fairly easily get source code back from compiled Java and .NET applications. RuneScape's is obfuscated but the point is you can still get high level source code back. With a C++ application you'd be swimming in assembly, and there's a lot less people who can work with that easily, especially on the scale of an entire MMO client.

[DeeKay]

saying Java is great because it works on all operating systems is like saying anal sex is great because it works on all genders

Ha ha ha! Good one!

But matey, with all do respects to your almighty university, Java doesn't revolve around Runescape, and if Java can run on anything, that's a big plus for developers. There's a reason Oracle bought Sun for 7.4$ billion, and that reason is because large corporations do wonders with Java. With a bit of thinking Java can be efficient enough, so I'd take back those pompous talking about how Jagex writes their code, because you don't know how they write their. Hey, I don't know how they write their code either. Nobody knows. Only Jagex employees that code the game know. That's 'bout the language.

Now the game. We can only guess, like most of this thread, that the game's written in Java because at the time it was accessible. Just download some debugging tool and off you go. Easy to start, and just as easy to keep on. And hey, if you can make it run on anything additional to Windows, why not.

 

I'll sum this up with some personal experience. When you start programming, everyone thinks they know what's the best method to approach things, what's most efficient and how stuff are done. That's very nice, especially when you build purposeless little programs like shop manager or something. What everyone doesn't know is how huge, REAL f***ing huge, projects like Runescape are. I'll take the shop-manager-or-something program and try my best to explain:

* The shop is a government warehouse with hundreds of categories, and tens of thousands of items.

* Each six hours the warehouse inventory needs to be reorganized and archived - that's being done by multiple processes which append the data in realtime and must not interfere with each other.

* 100,000 clients concurrently create and append orders.

* Each 24 hours the warehouse inventory needs to be backed up, while considering the aforementioned number of connected clients.

* The system is spread across 8 servers, with an equal of 8 backup servers on standby.

* The distribution of clients across servers is done by two server dedicated for the job.

* 20% of all orders are summarized calculation, with each category having its own calculation method.

 

Now, you'd agree that making this mess work together, and in a satisfactory way as Runescape does, is a pretty god damn impressive feat.

[RSBDavid]

saying Java is great because it works on all operating systems is like saying anal sex is great because it works on all genders

 

I'll sum this up with some personal experience. When you start programming, everyone thinks they know what's the best method to approach things, what's most efficient and how stuff are done. That's very nice, especially when you build purposeless little programs like shop manager or something. What everyone doesn't know is how huge, REAL f***ing huge, projects like Runescape are. I'll take the shop-manager-or-something program and try my best to explain:

* The shop is a government warehouse with hundreds of categories, and tens of thousands of items.

* Each six hours the warehouse inventory needs to be reorganized and archived - that's being done by multiple processes which append the data in realtime and must not interfere with each other.

* 100,000 clients concurrently create and append orders.

* Each 24 hours the warehouse inventory needs to be backed up, while considering the aforementioned number of connected clients.

* The system is spread across 8 servers, with an equal of 8 backup servers on standby.

* The distribution of clients across servers is done by two server dedicated for the job.

* 20% of all orders are summarized calculation, with each category having its own calculation method.

 

Now, you'd agree that making this mess work together, and in a satisfactory way as Runescape does, is a pretty god damn impressive feat.

 

Most, if not all of that is handled at the server-end. Runescape is a server based game. The client requests information as it needs it. All calculations, collision management, chat, etc takes place at the server-end.

[xxshady]

Runescape's technology is far from obsolete. In fact, for a browser game based on Java, it is cutting edge. The word you are looking for is inefficient. Much more could be done at far less performance cost if there was a full C++ client.

[GlowinRedM]

Yet you have no idea if the server end is even written in Java. For all you know, the server could be Python or C++, and the client shell is in Java. Not hard for separate languages to communicate.

[RSBDavid]

Yet you have no idea if the server end is even written in Java. For all you know, the server could be Python or C++, and the client shell is in Java. Not hard for separate languages to communicate.

 

I never specified what language the server was written in earlier at all. I just stated the game as a whole was server-based [source]. There is a good indication that the game server is written in java [source] .

[deletemeplease]

I agree.

When it comes to Jagex, it seems graphics and current technology doesn't really seem to be a top priority of theirs.

 

I don't know, I'd like to think that your ideas will be done one day. I mean, RS2 was a big step from classic, so maybe when(if) RS3 is released coding it in a different language and trashing the internet browser thing all together would be one of the outcomes.

The coding thing I could live without, I mean Runescape has its own unique style of game play, even if it is just clicking.

I think it would be a smart idea to make downloadable content for the game, or, make downloadable map packs and such so that it can interact with the internet browser and reduce a lot of the lag.

[Dexek]

I agree, but I can play it on dial up without latency issues, so thats pretty much why I play. I like the gameplay itself for the most part, although it could always be better. Generally everything you stated was true in my opinion. Don't call down anal sex though.

[Triquos]

I think the graphics are alright. We still pretty much look like dolls though, I would like to see more realistic faces and bodies (not just in the chat interface, but physically) look at the fighter torso, it's like a fatsuit with painted abs. Also I've noticed almost everyone lags more these days, I know it's not just me. Something should be done about it, these updates are gonna kill us one day. Either they need to improve their game engine and get more data space for updates and content, or something, otherwise we'll all start disconnecting and ragequitting.

[tortilliachp]

I think the graphics are alright. We still pretty much look like dolls though, I would like to see more realistic faces and bodies (not just in the chat interface, but physically) look at the fighter torso, it's like a fatsuit with painted abs. Also I've noticed almost everyone lags more these days, I know it's not just me. Something should be done about it, these updates are gonna kill us one day. Either they need to improve their game engine and get more data space for updates and content, or something, otherwise we'll all start disconnecting and ragequitting.

 

thing is, even if the looks of our characters are changed, that won't change turn-based combat where you hit the opponent in the exact same way over and over again. No graphics can change that, unless a massive amount of new animations are created, and adapt to hits being blocked, strikes to different body parts etc. etc.

 

It'll look terrible, even if we have photographic realism, due to the non-direct combat of runescape (no asdw controlling, no strike area or type control). a game engine, or gameserver update is very necessary for reducing lag, not for better graphics.

[Jard_Y_Dooku]

I think the graphics are alright. We still pretty much look like dolls though, I would like to see more realistic faces and bodies (not just in the chat interface, but physically) look at the fighter torso, it's like a fatsuit with painted abs. Also I've noticed almost everyone lags more these days, I know it's not just me. Something should be done about it, these updates are gonna kill us one day. Either they need to improve their game engine and get more data space for updates and content, or something, otherwise we'll all start disconnecting and ragequitting.

 

thing is, even if the looks of our characters are changed, that won't change turn-based combat where you hit the opponent in the exact same way over and over again. No graphics can change that, unless a massive amount of new animations are created, and adapt to hits being blocked, strikes to different body parts etc. etc.

 

It'll look terrible, even if we have photographic realism, due to the non-direct combat of runescape (no asdw controlling, no strike area or type control). a game engine, or gameserver update is very necessary for reducing lag, not for better graphics.

 

The reason I suggest a C++ client in the first place is to reduce lag...

[ArtemisCatal]

I think the graphics are alright. We still pretty much look like dolls though, I would like to see more realistic faces and bodies (not just in the chat interface, but physically) look at the fighter torso, it's like a fatsuit with painted abs. Also I've noticed almost everyone lags more these days, I know it's not just me. Something should be done about it, these updates are gonna kill us one day. Either they need to improve their game engine and get more data space for updates and content, or something, otherwise we'll all start disconnecting and ragequitting.

 

thing is, even if the looks of our characters are changed, that won't change turn-based combat where you hit the opponent in the exact same way over and over again. No graphics can change that, unless a massive amount of new animations are created, and adapt to hits being blocked, strikes to different body parts etc. etc.

 

It'll look terrible, even if we have photographic realism, due to the non-direct combat of runescape (no asdw controlling, no strike area or type control). a game engine, or gameserver update is very necessary for reducing lag, not for better graphics.

 

The is a lot more to this game than combat, so I don't see how totally un-runescaping runescape combat with asdw control, strike areas, type control, etc would make the game look any better. If what you want in a game is fancy combat controls, you should find some other game to get your fix of that. I've always thought runescape combat was just fine. I like it plain, simple, and straight forward the way it is.

 

Personally, every runescape item could be replaced with a brown paper sack, and I would be fine with it. I play for how it plays, not what it looks like. But one thing I'm emphatic about is to leave in a low graphics option for people who don't have the internet or the computer to play a "fancy" game. As long as they leave a safe mode and I can still play it on my thrown together peice of junk computer, I'm down with what ever it looks lilke.

[sees_all1]

As much as you hate java, it isn't going away. Java is becoming much more prevalent for... wait for it.... everything.

That's right. From bluray players to cable boxes, to hand held devices such as phones. Do you have any idea how much of a pain in the [wagon] it is to have to compile something 1000s of times for the slightest variation of devices?

 

And you linux / mac fanboys that play runescape - Do you honestly think Jagex would spend time supporting 10% of the computer population if they had written their code in C++ originally?

 

Its also the reason that game counsels were so popular from the 1980s until 2000s; there were limited platforms to develop for (2 or 3 at most) and a large user base that were willing to shell out $50 for even half-baked games.

 

 

 

 

Also, the fact that JaGEx stands for Java Game Experts - you really think they'll move away from java?

[IamRhhh4]

Mod MMG changed Jagex into Just About the Gaming Experience (http://www.jagex.com/coporate), so moving away from Java is a possibility.

[DeeKay]

Good people! I know not how relevant this is at this point of the thread, but I will still suggest the following guess:

Even when playing in HD, the CPU is used to render the wire-frame and applying a basic colour or texture to it (when not playing in HD). Since the CPU isn't very good at it, or at least a lot worse than dedicated graphics cards, this what causes the lag, or low performance compared to other games. As for networking lags, s'not something in my field of expertise so I can't comment.

 

 

 

saying Java is great because it works on all operating systems is like saying anal sex is great because it works on all genders

 

I'll sum this up with some personal experience. When you start programming, everyone thinks they know what's the best method to approach things, what's most efficient and how stuff are done. That's very nice, especially when you build purposeless little programs like shop manager or something. What everyone doesn't know is how huge, REAL f***ing huge, projects like Runescape are. I'll take the shop-manager-or-something program and try my best to explain:

* The shop is a government warehouse with hundreds of categories, and tens of thousands of items.

* Each six hours the warehouse inventory needs to be reorganized and archived - that's being done by multiple processes which append the data in realtime and must not interfere with each other.

* 100,000 clients concurrently create and append orders.

* Each 24 hours the warehouse inventory needs to be backed up, while considering the aforementioned number of connected clients.

* The system is spread across 8 servers, with an equal of 8 backup servers on standby.

* The distribution of clients across servers is done by two server dedicated for the job.

* 20% of all orders are summarized calculation, with each category having its own calculation method.

 

Now, you'd agree that making this mess work together, and in a satisfactory way as Runescape does, is a pretty god damn impressive feat.

 

 

Most, if not all of that is handled at the server-end. Runescape is a server based game. The client requests information as it needs it. All calculations, collision management, chat, etc takes place at the server-end.

Indeed. Allow me once more to try and provide an example, this time a wild guess about how the game might be built:

Let's assume the game is divided into modules, and that all these modules must run simultaneously to run the game. We then might have, the least:

* A module which renders the picture.

* One that is responsible for interaction with the scene (left-clicking).

* Chat module.

* Friends list and clan chat module that keeps the lot up to date.

* An on-screen 2D rendering module (minimap, compass).

* A synchronization module which checks that the client's data match to the server's.

* An anti-bot module.

* A network module.

* A module that times between the lot.

 

That's lots of stuff to be running all at once!

[Karvinen]

RS is already partially written in C++. Things like HD mode or the "new" SD/software mode wouldn't be possible in pure Java.

 

Go to the Jagex cache folder and you'll see some DLL files like jaggl.dll.

 

And I agree that Jagex should take RS out of browser. Java isn't restricted to browser applets.