israeli soldiers kill 9 in international waters

[Romy]

Mage there's a video up above that shows the soldiers being attacked.

 

And quit being so melodramatic.

 

I've seen the video. What's your point? I hardly think that being armed as well as the local 2nd grade class could constitute justifiable defense in the case of military soldiers illegally boarding an aid ship in international waters. What would you do if someone tried to illegally board your boat, knowing full well what would happen once the items I listed were found?

2. A second one said: "It's funny to think about the way we treated all of this when we started preparing for the operation. We all understood we were going there to discuss things, not fight. Each of us had to deal with three-four men, and as a last resort, I took the gun out and started shooting their legs, because I knew I had to stop them. As we were getting off the rope, the passangers grabbed the rope and tied it to some iron parts, trying to disrupt the helicopter.

 

During the struggle we clearly identified shooting at our direction, from the ship."

 

Through ships and tunnels?

 

Without those tunnels, the Palestinians might have already been successfully fully cleansed from the region. Those tunnels are their lifeblood.

Through these tunnels, which Eygept agreed to block, weapons were smuggled on a regular basis. And that's also why Eygept agreed to block those tunnels.

 

Israel sent messages to all the ships, and 'Marmara' is the only one that started attacking. The rest weren't attacking, and were neither attacked.

 

I know how much of a staunch supporter of Israel that you are, romy, but this is completely unsubstantiated. Define "attacking" for me. If you mean by attacking "thwacking and throwing IDF soldiers overboard once they illegally boarded their ship," I would agree, but I wouldn't call that attacking.

Want me to define attacking? Hitting, shooting, throwing grenades, throwing soldiers.

 

'Marnara' DID contain weapons.

 

Yes, they did:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FzGiSpXmnQ0

So where did the shooting and grenades come from?

 

And even if there were no weapons, no weapons at all, Israel did it because of the experiences it had with these things. It wouldn't be the first time hidden weapons were being sent to the Gaza strip.

[das]

im going to state i feel alot of you guys who scream that's Zionism" are probably anti-semantic. This is not a cut and dry issue.

[qeltar]

im going to state i feel alot of you guys who scream that's Zionism" are probably anti-semantic. This is not a cut and dry issue.

And Israel is its own worst enemy when it gives anti-Semites reason to scream.

 

romy, I don't give a flying fig what has transpired in the past, or what they "suspected", or even what they found. They had no right to do this, and if they want people to think they are morally/ethically superior to their enemies, they need to ACT LIKE IT.

[Romy]

'Marnara' DID contain weapons.

 

Thats where things get a little hinky for me. "IF" the Marnara did have weapons and if israel really did alert the ships that they were being borded then wouldn't they have used them instead of sticks and stones? From what i can tell they only used sticks and stones and a few small arms which makes me feel like they were surprised and whatever arms they did have on board were only for self defense.

 

If out of the blue an armed helicopter starts droping armed soldiers onto your boat with guns pointed at you what would you do?

 

But they did use other weapons:

 

2. A second one said: "It's funny to think about the way we treated all of this when we started preparing for the operation. We all understood we were going there to discuss things, not fight. Each of us had to deal with three-four men, and as a last resort, I took the gun out and started shooting their legs, because I knew I had to stop them. As we were getting off the rope, the passangers grabbed the rope and tied it to some iron parts, trying to disrupt the helicopter.

 

During the struggle we clearly identified shooting at our direction, from the ship."

 

Atleast according to the videos, and the soldiers.

[magekillr]

Well, do you even know what items Israel prevents from getting through their blockade? Many materials were on board the ship; things such as chocolate, biscuits, potato chips, fresh meat, coriander, industrial margarine are the food items prevented. Other banned goods include musical instruments, pens, notebooks, toys, cars, fridges and computers, as well as building materials like cement, iron, gravel, marble and some wood.

 

You forgot weapons and ammo, sent with the intent to harm Israeli citizens. Israel supplys what it can to the Gaza strip, but it cannot let weapons reach the hands of the Hamas, that's just irrational.

 

Your evidence that this kind of weaponry was on the ship is...? This organization, as I have stated, is pretty non-violent. They're not stupid. You're assuming that they are.

 

Of course they didn't want the IDF to search their ship. Anyone with half of a brain knows that the ship would be towed back to an Israeli port, where all of the listed items would be removed from their ship.

Then why did the rest of the ships have no problem with being searched? They weren't aggressive, they let the soldiers do their thing and leave.

 

I don't know. Why did the many other attempts by the same organization not result in this manner?

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Gaza_Movement

 

Perhaps it's because the IDF has continued to try and feed its lies, just like most other armies (especially the United States army).

 

Israel has not only once again demonstrated their arrogance in thinking they're above all law, but they have quite possibly ruined any peace agreements that they had with Turkey, Egypt, and Jordan. All this, and for what? To keep construction materials from the Gazan people?

It's very, very, very unlikely that any of these 3 countries would break the peace agreements. You'll live to see that statement has no valid basis.

 

Really? The Arab League will meet tomorrow and put immense pressure on Egypt to lift their portion of the Gazan blockade. I can't imagine that Egypt will refuse. It will continue to deteriorate their peace deal made through Jimmy Carter so many years ago. It might not end the deals, but it will put serious strains on their peace fronts.

 

Meanwhile, Turkey has taken away their Israeli ambassador, and has "threatened Israel with unprecedented action after Israeli forces attacked an aid vessel, killing 10 peace activists headed to Gaza.":

 

http://ibnlive.in.com/news/turkey-threatens-action-israel-on-alert/116743-2.html

 

This is serious, and you're making it seem like it's just another day in Israel's apartheid regime. Well, ironically, it is. This time, they may have overstepped their bounds, even with the United States.

[The Dark Lord]

Qeltar, what's wrong with being anti-Zionist?

 

Are you implying that we're being anti-Semitic?

I don't believe the two are the same. But I do believe one is often used as a cover for the other.

 

There's no way for me to read anyone's mind and know for sure what they are thinking. But when some of the rhetoric goes over the top, the balance of probabilities begins to tip.

 

The reality to any objective observer is that both parties are right in many ways and wrong in many ways. This isn't a simple situation and there is no simple, easily-identified "bad guy". When an individual tries to boil down an event into something to entirely damn one side and portray the other as innocent victims, it is easy to tell that there's an agenda at work.

 

Valid point. I can understand why Jews would want a homeland, but it entails kicking Arabs from their homes in order to create a Zionist nation.

 

I just get pissed off when Israel does arrogant crap and acts hypocritical. They're acting like a bunch of damn Nazis when they throw Arabs into ghettos and treat Jews as first-class citizens while the rest are confined to [cabbage].

[qeltar]

...Israel's apartheid regime...

This would be another good example of the sort of inflammatory rhetoric that makes people think it is more than the Israeli government you disagree with.

 

To even suggest that Israel is in any way comparable to apartheid-era South Africa is insulting and, frankly, idiotic.

 

Compare the way Israel treats minorities to how they are treated in say, Saudi Arabia.

[Romy]

You forgot weapons and ammo, sent with the intent to harm Israeli citizens.

1. I haven't seen any objective evidence that such was on the ship.

 

With what did they attack the soldiers then?

 

2. If Israel was worried about that, it could have and should have dealt with it in some way OTHER than violating international waters. All they had to do was stop them from landing, and if they suspected arms were on board, ask for a third party to inspect.

 

I completely agree, it definitely shouldn't have been done on international waters. But it should have been done, and even if it was done a few hours later on national water, I doubt the scenario was any different.

 

Turkey is currently very biased against Israel, which can be seen by what's going inside of Turkey, and out.

And so Israel goes and gives them good reason to be biased against them? Brilliant tactical move, guys.

 

Israel cannot value it's every action and consider whether or not it would piss off turkey. A biased country is likely to take something Israel does and spin it around anyway (and it has).

 

Israel was wrong for doing that in international waters, but was not wrong for searching the ships.

[Jaziek]

This time, they may have overstepped their bounds, even with the United States.

 

Yeah, thats not possible.

[Romy]

romy, I don't give a flying fig what has transpired in the past, or what they "suspected", or even what they found. They had no right to do this, and if they want people to think they are morally/ethically superior to their enemies, they need to ACT LIKE IT.

 

The searches were almost obligatory. Israel cannot let weapons reach the Hamas, just so Israeli citizens could be shot with ease. Even if that makes Israel immoral from the viewpoint of whoever, the rest of the world as far as I'm concerned.

[Alg]

I'd have to wonder what the response would be if this did take place in national waters though.

[das]

...Israel's apartheid regime...

This would be another good example of the sort of inflammatory rhetoric that makes people think it is more than the Israeli government you disagree with.

 

To even suggest that Israel is in any way comparable to apartheid-era South Africa is insulting and, frankly, idiotic.

 

Compare the way Israel treats minorities to how they are treated in say, Saudi Arabia.

 

I do believe that if Isreal - had the size or economic power of the USA, no one would care what they did as much.

[magekillr]

Thanks for the clarification, but if you're going to damn countries based on religious focus, guess what? Israel is the only country in the entire area that provides reasonable rights to those of minority religions. So you should temper your viewpoints on that basis.

 

I won't temper my viewpoints, I will condemn them all, including the Islamic Republic of Iran and any other country that defines itself based on one race or religion. Ironically, though, the people of Iran are probably the most pro-Western in the entire region. It's their corrupt and fanatical government that is the problem. I will also condemn the wretched Egyptian government, a government the US is glad to be pals with in exchange for their agreements to peace with Israel. In a just world, we would be criticizing them far more than we criticize, say, Venezuela. We don't. Geopolitics are a [bleep].

 

And your rhetoric does come across as anti-Semitic, at least to me. It's one thing to criticize some of what they do, but you appear to have bought the whole "Gaza is an innocent victim of Jewish oppression" bullspit -- hook, line and sinker.

 

There is no two sides to this issue. I'm sorry if I treat the Israeli government with far more scorn than I do Hamas, an organization which I also condemn, but this is not two equal sides here. There is an oppressor, and an oppressed. Unlike Das' assertion, it is clear cut and dry, and has been since the 1970's. More often than not, especially since that period, they have been the aggressor, and have acted disproportionately. Israel shouldn't have been established in the first place, but now that it has, it's not going anywhere, nor should it. It should, however, not be defined as the Zionists want as a "homeland for Jews." Palestine and Israel need to be united under one flag, ruled by a secular democratic government. We can discuss two sides when the other "side" actually has a state-hood to be sided with.

 

If the people of Gaza want a better life, they could start by not electing a government devoted to eternal war with its most important neighbor. Hard to have good relations after that.

 

Hey, I agree, however, extend some empathy. Who has given them most of their schools, roads, hospitals and food? It certainly wasn't the corrupt Fatah government, who pocketed most of the money. It hasn't been the international community or Israel. It has been Hamas. And like most people's around the world, the Palestinians are the least concerned with their government's foreign policy, and most concerned with the domestic aspects. If they weren't put in a hopeless situation in the first place, groups like Hamas wouldn't rise to power.

 

I could say the same with Israel, who has elected a far-right Hawkish government with people like Avigdor Lieberman in power.

[Jaziek]

romy, I don't give a flying fig what has transpired in the past, or what they "suspected", or even what they found. They had no right to do this, and if they want people to think they are morally/ethically superior to their enemies, they need to ACT LIKE IT.

 

The searches were almost obligatory. Israel cannot let weapons reach the Hamas, just so Israeli citizens could be shot with ease. Even if that makes Israel immoral from the viewpoint of whoever, the rest of the world as far as I'm concerned.

 

Doesn't give them the right to do it in international waters though does it?

 

They're just showing their flagrant disregard for the law, because they know they can get away with it.

 

im going to state i feel alot of you guys who scream that's Zionism" are probably anti-semantic. This is not a cut and dry issue.

 

And you know what? I resent the implication that I hate Jews, just because I'm not ok with the IDF killing innocent civilians.

[qeltar]

You forgot weapons and ammo, sent with the intent to harm Israeli citizens.

1. I haven't seen any objective evidence that such was on the ship.

 

With what did they attack the soldiers then?

From what I can see, improvised weapons.

 

A better question would be: if the place was a floating armory, why is it 10 of them got killed and no Israelis?

 

I completely agree, it definitely shouldn't have been done on international waters.

Then you might want to stop defending it.

 

Israel cannot value it's every action and consider whether or not it would piss of turkey.

It has nothing to do with what pisses off Turkey. It has everything to do with RESPECTING INTERNATIONAL LAW.

 

Israel cannot have it both ways. They cannot claim to be the good guys, and then act like bad guys. It won't fly.

 

EVERY country thinks it is justified in doing whatever it convinces itself has to be done. If they all do whatever they want, we end up with anarchy and world wars.

[Romy]

Well, do you even know what items Israel prevents from getting through their blockade? Many materials were on board the ship; things such as chocolate, biscuits, potato chips, fresh meat, coriander, industrial margarine are the food items prevented. Other banned goods include musical instruments, pens, notebooks, toys, cars, fridges and computers, as well as building materials like cement, iron, gravel, marble and some wood.

 

You forgot weapons and ammo, sent with the intent to harm Israeli citizens. Israel supplys what it can to the Gaza strip, but it cannot let weapons reach the hands of the Hamas, that's just irrational.

 

Your evidence that this kind of weaponry was on the ship is...?

 

That statement was in regards to the blockade, not the ship. Also, they had to get their grenades from somewhere.

 

Of course they didn't want the IDF to search their ship. Anyone with half of a brain knows that the ship would be towed back to an Israeli port, where all of the listed items would be removed from their ship.

Then why did the rest of the ships have no problem with being searched? They weren't aggressive, they let the soldiers do their thing and leave.

 

I don't know. Why did the many other attempts by the same organization not result in this manner?

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Gaza_Movement

 

Perhaps it's because the IDF has continued to try and feed its lies, just like most other armies (especially the United States army).

 

What's Israel's incentive then? Pure malice?

 

Israel has not only once again demonstrated their arrogance in thinking they're above all law, but they have quite possibly ruined any peace agreements that they had with Turkey, Egypt, and Jordan. All this, and for what? To keep construction materials from the Gazan people?

It's very, very, very unlikely that any of these 3 countries would break the peace agreements. You'll live to see that statement has no valid basis.

 

Really? The Arab League will meet tomorrow and put immense pressure on Egypt to lift their portion of the Gazan blockade. I can't imagine that Egypt will refuse. It will continue to deteriorate their peace deal made through Jimmy Carter so many years ago. It might not end the deals, but it will put serious strains on their peace fronts.

 

Meanwhile, Turkey has taken away their Israeli ambassador, and has "threatened Israel with unprecedented action after Israeli forces attacked an aid vessel, killing 10 peace activists headed to Gaza.":

 

http://ibnlive.in.com/news/turkey-threatens-action-israel-on-alert/116743-2.html

 

This is serious, and you're making it seem like it's just another day in Israel's apartheid regime. Well, ironically, it is. This time, they may have overstepped their bounds, even with the United States.

 

Yes, the relations aren't good at all. But neither Eygept, nor Jordan, nor Turkey, will break peace agreements, and you can take my word for it.

[qeltar]

I won't temper my viewpoints, I will condemn them all, including the Islamic Republic of Iran and any other country that defines itself based on one race or religion.

Yes, people like yourself always say this in general terms. But in practice, it's always about Israel.

 

In a just world, we would be criticizing them far more than we criticize, say, Venezuela. We don't. Geopolitics are a [bleep].

Don't kid yourself -- the Saudis are far worse and we give them hugs and kisses on a regular basis.

 

Unlike Das' assertion, it is clear cut and dry, and has been since the 1970's.

Oh, this is complete [cabbage]. If you really think the Palestinians bear no responsibility for their predicaments, you are severely brainwashed.

 

Palestine and Israel need to be united under one flag, ruled by a secular democratic government. We can discuss two sides when the other "side" actually has a state-hood to be sided with.

Nicely oversimplified. Because again, you only look at one side of the issue, conveniently ignoring the reasons why this doesn't happen due to the Palestinians.

[Tetsuya]

Unbelievably stupid move by the Israeli military to do this in international waters where they don't have jurisdiction.

[Romy]

romy, I don't give a flying fig what has transpired in the past, or what they "suspected", or even what they found. They had no right to do this, and if they want people to think they are morally/ethically superior to their enemies, they need to ACT LIKE IT.

 

The searches were almost obligatory. Israel cannot let weapons reach the Hamas, just so Israeli citizens could be shot with ease. Even if that makes Israel immoral from the viewpoint of whoever, the rest of the world as far as I'm concerned.

 

Doesn't give them the right to do it in international waters though does it?

 

Not at all, but the search should've been done either way, IMO.

[magekillr]

This would be another good example of the sort of inflammatory rhetoric that makes people think it is more than the Israeli government you disagree with.

 

To even suggest that Israel is in any way comparable to apartheid-era South Africa is insulting and, frankly, idiotic.

 

Tell that to Desmond Tutu

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/1957644.stm

 

In case you're wondering who this is:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desmond_Tutu

 

Desmond Mpilo Tutu (born 7 October 1931) is a South African cleric and activist who rose to worldwide fame during the 1980s as an opponent of apartheid. In 1984, Tutu became the second South African to be awarded the Nobel Peace Prize. Tutu was the first black South African Anglican Archbishop of Cape Town, South Africa, and primate of the Church of the Province of Southern Africa (now the Anglican Church of Southern Africa). Tutu chaired the Truth and Reconciliation Commission and is currently the chairman of The Elders. Tutu is vocal in his defence of human rights and uses his high profile to campaign for the oppressed. Tutu also campaigns to fight AIDS, tuberculosis, homophobia, poverty and racism. He received the Nobel Peace Prize in 1984, the Albert Schweitzer Prize for Humanitarianism, the Gandhi Peace Prize in 2005[1] and the Presidential Medal of Freedom in 2009. Tutu has also compiled several books of his speeches and sayings.

 

Compare the way Israel treats minorities to how they are treated in say, Saudi Arabia.

 

We don't even need to get into how Saudi Arabia treats its minorities. Just examine the way they treat their own citizens; Saudi Arabia is still stuck in the year 1100. I condemn them just the same as I condemn what's going on in Darfur. The difference is how we as citizens can affect policy. We can do very little to affect the US policy towards Saudi Arabia. However, we CAN remove this stigma in the US that we can NEVER condemn Israel no matter what they do. When does the US ever condemn the Saudis? Never. Why? Oil. Again, geopolitics are a [bleep].

[das]

We can remove this stigma in the US that we can NEVER condemn Israel no matter what they do

No democratic or republican will ever carry the bible belt or the other christian predominant states with a policy like that.

 

Infact I daresay that it would be political suicide for any candidate

[Romy]

You forgot weapons and ammo, sent with the intent to harm Israeli citizens.

1. I haven't seen any objective evidence that such was on the ship.

 

With what did they attack the soldiers then?

From what I can see, improvised weapons.

 

A better question would be: if the place was a floating armory, why is it 10 of them got killed and no Israelis?

 

It wasn't a "floating armory", but there were weapons there.

 

Again, even if there weren't, Israel cannot afford not to check that. Past experiences are enough of a proof that these things aren't unlikely to carry weapons, sometimes in very large quantities.

 

I completely agree, it definitely shouldn't have been done on international waters.

Then you might want to stop defending it.

I don't defend the fact that Israel broke the international law. It cannot be defended, Israel was in the wrong here. I AM defending the rest of it though.

 

Israel cannot value it's every action and consider whether or not it would piss of turkey.

It has nothing to do with what pisses off Turkey. It has everything to do with RESPECTING INTERNATIONAL LAW.

 

Israel cannot have it both ways. They cannot claim to be the good guys, and then act like bad guys. It won't fly.

 

EVERY country thinks it is justified in doing whatever it convinces itself has to be done. If they all do whatever they want, we end up with anarchy and world wars.

 

And I again repeat, I think Israel was in the wrong for breaking international laws - but some action had to be taken, Israel can't afford not to search ships arriving Gaza.

[qeltar]

Tell that to Desmond Tutu

Gladly. But I doubt he'd take my call.

 

There are also people who think the Israelis are the same as the Nazis. Doesn't make that right either.

 

Arabs in Israel are able to vote in elections, and are integrated into society in pretty much every way. To even compare Israel to apartheid shows that the person saying it is either a moron or just a Jew-hater (in Tutu's case, probably a bit of both.)

[Jaziek]

 

Again, even if there weren't, Israel cannot afford not to check that. Past experiences are enough of a proof that these things aren't unlikely to carry weapons, sometimes in very large quantities.

 

 

Given that there were 2 members of German parliament and a swedish MP on board, I'm going to assume that the boats were not in fact smuggling large amounts of weaponry into the region.

[magekillr]

I won't temper my viewpoints, I will condemn them all, including the Islamic Republic of Iran and any other country that defines itself based on one race or religion.

Yes, people like yourself always say this in general terms. But in practice, it's always about Israel.

 

See my post below about why this is about Israel. I can do very little about Saudi Arabia until we get off of oil completely. I advocated for the Obama administration to condemn Turkey's Armenian Genocide when he met with them last year, but he stopped short. When he didn't, I was very disappointed, although I somewhat expected him not to do it. Why did he stop short? They're a NATO ally, and are very key to stability in the region. Now Israel may have gone and f'ed that up.

 

For the third time, geopolitics are a [bleep].

 

Palestine and Israel need to be united under one flag, ruled by a secular democratic government. We can discuss two sides when the other "side" actually has a state-hood to be sided with.

Nicely oversimplified. Because again, you only look at one side of the issue, conveniently ignoring the reasons why this doesn't happen due to the Palestinians.

 

I do think they've done a lot of damage to their own cause by reacting with violence in some cases to Israeli aggression; even in cases where violence is justified, should they have reacted in that way? I'd say no, as I am strictly non-violent in nature and think it only does harm to your cause. However, it is far from being "both are bad so let's be in the middle and condemn both as equals!" One side is rich, prosperous, has the richest most powerful nation on their side, is educated, has universal health care (when the US doesn't even have that); the other is being occupied, is subjected to apartheid in East Jerusalem, is largely uneducated, starving, poor, and mostly children.