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Tip.It Times - 06th June 2010


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#21
Ring_World
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The strange thing is that whenever they do make something that's fun, it never gives any meaningful amount of experience, because they don't want to detract from the previous, not fun methods as though they were worth preserving.

However, this probably stems from the fact that people who used the previous, not fun methods would complain very loudly that they want to keep things stupid and not fun because otherwise it would detract from whatever honor they had obtained from doing it the hard way.

As a result, nobody uses the new thing because they don't get much exp, and they just keep using the old thing.

PROGRESS.

The Penance Horn from Barbarian Assault and the tools from Stealing Creation are good examples of using "fun" methods to get more efficient experience.


Not really. Your still doing the same boring skill just getting faster xp.

And as an added bonus you get to do frustrating mini games (im talking mainly about BA if your not on a pro team) to get the bonus.

#22
strilmus
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I'm comparing that to the mountain of other things that nobody uses.

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#23
xxshady
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Second article was really great for me, considering that i'm one of the biggest complainers about the insane amount of afkable/buyable content that Runescape has. Jagex has always had great fun content (Quests and certain activities) but the amount of mindless afkable content greatly outweighs it. Dungeoneering is certainly a large step forward in this regard, giving the afkable skills actual meaning other than a number in your skills tab. As the uses of Dungeoneering expand, the uses of all the mindless skills will expand by proxy, so the future looks quite bright.

I'm glad Stellar Dawn is doing away with XP and levels though, Jagex has always said that the mindless grinding was one of the biggest lessons they learned from Runescape that they won't repeat in Stellar Dawn.
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#24
Melencholy
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Naturally, there are those whom describe this puzzle as being simple, straightforward, or easy. I would posit these people are egomaniacal fools who simply need to be told how smart they are. Pass them along with a little pat on the head as you laugh internally at their silly display of bravado.



:angry: calling me and hundreds of others egomaniacal fool's that needs to be told how smart they are? quite frankly that puzzle is NOT that hard once you figure it out. yes it is harder for some then others but mournings end two was far harder. and that remark is going WAY too far.

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#25
wizardguy31
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I like both articles but I think if the writer of the second article wants his figures to be taken seriously he should have a larger sample size for his 'poll'. Twenty-Two people is nothing to base his statements on in a game with as large a community as RuneScape. Which isn't to say I don't agree with him. I just think he could distribute his poll more.
I resemble that remark!
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Beat Nomad on 6-24-10 WOOHOO!.

#26
Ring_World
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Naturally, there are those whom describe this puzzle as being simple, straightforward, or easy. I would posit these people are egomaniacal fools who simply need to be told how smart they are. Pass them along with a little pat on the head as you laugh internally at their silly display of bravado.



:angry: calling me and hundreds of others egomaniacal fool's that needs to be told how smart they are? quite frankly that puzzle is NOT that hard once you figure it out. yes it is harder for some then others but mournings end two was far harder. and that remark is going WAY too far.


I think this is at people who claim that there has never been a hard puzzle in a quest. That they've done every quest the day it came out, with no struggle and dont understand why everyone else cant do the same. At least thats how i took it...

#27
wizardguy31
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The strange thing is that whenever they do make something that's fun, it never gives any meaningful amount of experience, because they don't want to detract from the previous, not fun methods as though they were worth preserving.

However, this probably stems from the fact that people who used the previous, not fun methods would complain very loudly that they want to keep things stupid and not fun because otherwise it would detract from whatever honor they had obtained from doing it the hard way.

As a result, nobody uses the new thing because they don't get much exp, and they just keep using the old thing.

PROGRESS.

The Penance Horn from Barbarian Assault and the tools from Stealing Creation are good examples of using "fun" methods to get more efficient experience.


Not really. Your still doing the same boring skill just getting faster xp.

And as an added bonus you get to do frustrating mini games (im talking mainly about BA if your not on a pro team) to get the bonus.


That's just your opinion. Many people (myself included) find BA fun even with a non-pro team. And I know many people who find Stealing Creation fun despite (or because of) the things that annoy me most about it. Really comes down to personal preference on what is fun and what is boring or tedious in RuneScape. I used to spend hours training Woodcutting before SC tools came out, simply chatting with people on RuneScape.
I resemble that remark!
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Beat Nomad on 6-24-10 WOOHOO!.

#28
Sir_Squab
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Naturally, there are those whom describe this puzzle as being simple, straightforward, or easy. I would posit these people are egomaniacal fools who simply need to be told how smart they are. Pass them along with a little pat on the head as you laugh internally at their silly display of bravado.



:angry: calling me and hundreds of others egomaniacal fool's that needs to be told how smart they are? quite frankly that puzzle is NOT that hard once you figure it out. yes it is harder for some then others but mournings end two was far harder. and that remark is going WAY too far.


Nuclear physics isn't hard once you understand it..... Frankly, once I got the hang of the puzzle it wasn't too hard, but it took me ages to figure it out.

Frankly, every single possible thing to do in life is easy once you know/understand how to do it. Anyways, he's referring to people who put others down because they "claim" to find something easy. I'd like to see someone to MEP2 without a guide or help from a friend and say they found it easy....I'd think a person was a liar if they said so.

(And yes, I think MEP2 was harder then EW3. Partly because of those stupid shadows. I did that quest WITH a guide and found it kinda hard and long. Longer then EW3.)

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#29
neonihilist
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I always listen to either music or talk while playing RS, and I do even more while skilling. I have even read books while training skills, the reason I did so was I had to study and RS hellps me to not be bored while studying. I wonder if the author has considered that maybe the reason people multi task isnt that runescape isnt interesting enough, but that multi-taskers would rather multi-task no matter what they're doing?

The only quest I havn't finished is Nomads Requium. It is extremely difficult, but I plan on trying again today.
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#30
dargonhuman
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Regarding multitasking, I tend to do so as well, but that's mostly because I have a short attent... Squirrel!
...
Sorry, had to. But yea, I have a short attention span that stems from an overactive imagination. If I can keep my "hind-brain" distracted with something, be it music, TV shows or movies I've already seen or whatever, I can focus more fully on what I'm supposed to be (or want to be) doing. Sometimes that's Runescape, sometimes it's reading a book, sometimes it's work (used to be homework til I graduated).
Hell, even now I'm watching videos from the Internet as I write this. Browsing the forums helps me concentrate on the show better.
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#31
aspeeder
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To bring the puzzle part of the prestige to the Quest Cape, Jagex has to create puzzles like these two where the starting position is randomized. A player therefore has no way to follow a step by step guide but must understand the workings of the puzzle. That ups the difficulty for a lot of the people that stormveritas mocks while keeping the same level of difficulty for those who already struggle without guides.

You mean like the puzzle from Within the Light? I actually found that to be the best quest puzzle to date: you needed to have a good understanding of the mechanics and what your end goal was but it was condensed to one area and easy to control. The Temple of Light is just too big (Not to mention the agility obstacles) and the controls for EMIII were just god awful.

On topic...I enjoyed both articles this week, keep up the good work!

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#32
Troacctid
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To bring the puzzle part of the prestige to the Quest Cape, Jagex has to create puzzles like these two where the starting position is randomized. A player therefore has no way to follow a step by step guide but must understand the workings of the puzzle. That ups the difficulty for a lot of the people that stormveritas mocks while keeping the same level of difficulty for those who already struggle without guides.

You mean like the puzzle from Within the Light? I actually found that to be the best quest puzzle to date: you needed to have a good understanding of the mechanics and what your end goal was but it was condensed to one area and easy to control. The Temple of Light is just too big (Not to mention the agility obstacles) and the controls for EMIII were just god awful.

On topic...I enjoyed both articles this week, keep up the good work!

Agreed, Within the Light was easily one of my favorite puzzles. Wish the reward was better.

#33
jettrider
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Mod Dylan's response:

As this quest is only played through once per account (unlike the treasure trail puzzles), it was considered unnecessary to randomise it to give it variation, as this would have added significant development and QA time without much noticeable benefit.

Another problem with randomising is we would not be able to guarantee two players approaching the puzzle would have that same difficulty of problem to solve.

Source


Well there you have it. It'll take time to get people to stop bragging about solving puzzles quickly (with the help of a guide). It's much harder to randomize a puzzle with a turn limit - like this one - without creating unsolvable positions; for something like the 9-square slider in Nomad's Requiem, though, I would like to see it scrambled by having the computer execute a set number of moves randomly. A reverse scramble can't create an unsolvable position and it ensures a generally equal set of difficulty the more moves the computer makes.

I understand the prioritizing that's going on - designing the puzzle as the main element of a small low level quest and taking out weeks of QA - but I'm hoping that when a true Grandmaster quest rolls around, the puzzle is created from the beginning with the purpose of randomization. If you think about it, there are really three ways of completing a quest:

1. Getting out a guide and following it through step by step.
2. Looking at general tips, required items (so you don't have to run around while doing the quest), and then figure out how to complete each step on your own. In the case of a puzzle, you get help understanding the concept of the puzzle but do the solving on your own.
3. You do not look at anything and just play through the quest by yourself.

Jagex cannot stop people from using the second method, but they can increase the prestige of the quest cape by making sure that you can't use a "Puzzles for Dummies" guide. I have a couple friends who still had no idea how the puzzle worked after the quest was over, as all they did was watch a video and mimicked what the other character did. For a small-scale quest like EW3 that's okay, but not when designing bigger puzzles.


I actually had to look up Within the Light to remember the puzzle. I'm assuming it's the one where you redirect light to the appropriate wall? I barely remember doing that one - I guess I got lucky, but I just remember taking each pillar one step at a time and rotating it in the right direction. It's not really a puzzle when every plausible solution works.

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#34
Rosanante1
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With reference to the QC requirements, see below the list which I think is up to date.

The fact that this cape is never secure on your back is what makes it a 'must-have' for me. Even today I could log in and find the message "Your QC unequips because you have no longer completed all of the quests".

Occasionally, it is followed by a bit of grinding to secure 'ole bluey' as part of my daily apparel. I think the hardest grind was smithing when I was only 62 and needed 69 and I had no spare coins =/


Levels required to complete every quest

Total level: 1520

Attack 75
Constitution ----
Mining 66
Strength 75
Agility 69
Smithing 69
Defence 65
Herblore 65
Fishing 62
Ranged 75
Thieving 66
Cooking 70
Prayer 70
Crafting 66
Firemaking 61
Magic 75
Fletching 70
Woodcutting 75
Runecrafting 50
Slayer 65
Farming 65
Construction 60
Hunter 65
Summoning 41
Dungeoneering ----
Combat level 85

Q. Pts 270

---
Temporary boosts
may be used in some quests
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#35
obidiah
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It could be argued that people multitasking to stop themselves getting bored is a strength of Runescape!

A lot of games people don't multitask simply because they can't. People don't get necessarily get bored of other games any less than Runescape.
But if you get bored of other games your only option is to stop. At which point you forget where you were up to and find it hard to re-engage when you might be in the mood again.

Runescape you can just keep on trucking with some of the less interactive gameplay and then when a new quest or something comes out, I'm ready to dive back in.

#36
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I don't have any comment....I guess this just left me dumbfounded, i submitted that article over 6 months ago i think and just a few minutes ago some friends showed me the link to it :shock: I don't even actually remember writing it since it's been so long ago, it took me about 20 minutes to summon the courage to give it a read myself and then read the actual comments on it. Thank you for you generous comments, it astonished me to see such kind words :thumbsup:

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#37
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I don't have any comment....I guess this just left me dumbfounded, i submitted that article over 6 months ago i think and just a few minutes ago some friends showed me the link to it :shock: I don't even actually remember writing it since it's been so long ago, it took me about 20 minutes to summon the courage to give it a read myself and then read the actual comments on it. Thank you for you generous comments, it astonished me to see such kind words :thumbsup:

We try to use our own articles most of the time, but sometimes we need a guest article and we've thankfully got a backlog of articles submitted by generous users like you :thumbup: It was a good article :)


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#38
Likely
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In the Multi-tasking article I felt the argument was flawed.

You inferred that, because people say they 'need' to multi task to play RuneScape, this means they do not enjoy RuneScape.

I however, refute.

1) When people say they 'need' to multi task, there is room for the argument that this is clearly an exaggeration.
2) Music is something that is listened to every day by most people, doing all sorts of things. Just because one likes listening to music while doing activity X does not mean they do not like activity X without music, but instead, prefer it.

Example, I often attend the gym. I love going to the gym, and while I'm often with a few friends, due to their job requirements they are, on occasion, not able to attend when I am able to do so. So, I listen to music while I work out. Listening to music does not take the love of working out away, at all, but instead, increases my enjoyment because I love both working out AND music. My enjoyment in the gym is not dependant on music.

Another example, I dislike very much training prayer, because it is incredibly boring. However, I enjoy the benefits. Due to the turmoil prayer being required in order to join the so called 'pro' godwars teams, I paid for the bones for 95 prayer. Throughout training from 90-95, i hated it and thus watched countless episodes of Frasier. Afterwards however, I enjoyed getting hilts on LS and splits in CS very much.

My point in this example is, some 'journey's' of the game can be boring for some, while the destination is far better. Just because someone might need to listen to music/watch films to keep them from getting too bored does not mean, at all, that the game itself bores them, but the skill in general.

Another point I wish to make on this topic is that of motivation;

When one sets themself a high levelled goal, i.e. a 99, there can be times where it is so boring that you may wish to stop. Many of my friends watch YouTube videos of people reaching the goal that they themselves wish to achieve, to motivate or inspire them to do the same and carry on. Here, yet again, the distraction, in this case the video, is not a neccesity, but instead a motivator.

If anyone wishes to dispute my points, I welcome it, as, of course, you are entitled to your opinion.


Edit: my new name is Revising, just in case people look up Likely and notice that the prayer level is not in fact level 95. xD


#39
Ring_World
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With reference to the QC requirements, see below the list which I think is up to date.

The fact that this cape is never secure on your back is what makes it a 'must-have' for me. Even today I could log in and find the message "Your QC unequips because you have no longer completed all of the quests".

Occasionally, it is followed by a bit of grinding to secure 'ole bluey' as part of my daily apparel. I think the hardest grind was smithing when I was only 62 and needed 69 and I had no spare coins =/


Levels required to complete every quest

Total level: 1520

Attack 75
Constitution ----
Mining 66
Strength 75
Agility 69
Smithing 69
Defence 65
Herblore 65
Fishing 62
Ranged 75
Thieving 66
Cooking 70
Prayer 70
Crafting 66
Firemaking 61
Magic 75
Fletching 70
Woodcutting 75
Runecrafting 50
Slayer 65
Farming 65
Construction 60
Hunter 65
Summoning 41
Dungeoneering ----
Combat level 85

Q. Pts 270

---
Temporary boosts
may be used in some quests


A minimum of 76 constitution in case you get hit by Nomads 750 attack. Its its suggested that combat skills all be 80+ including defense and summoning at least 67 for tortoise so combat around 110 at least. Of course these are just soft caps not true requirements.


Also for the bonus list for Fur and Seek, you need 78 slayer, however this is a soft cap too because this quest gives no quest points for completing

#40
Sir_Kurity
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That multitasking one really spoke to me...

Thing is, i dont find most of runescape fun, and have to find other things to amuse me while playing runescape, but the thing is. AFTER the grinding is done, and i can spend my time PKing, thats when i have the real fun.

Basically, use youtube to numb the grind, play runescape when youve got the money to have fun :D
O.O




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