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"If You Don't Like Me, Don't Read" <- His lordship


British_Dan

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Thank you very much for posting this.

I'm quite flattered you decided to copy it.

 

The reason I didn't post this on Tip.it, is because in general I think the Tip.it people already know what I had to say.

As a general rule, you're more respectful and I took it for granted that you had this basic code of honour.

RSC on the other hand, is a mess.

 

EDIT: Also massive respect to the topic maker for actually following through with the post in his own clan. It makes all the difference and the change happens one clan at a time until it becomes commonplace.

yea i would have to agree... tip.it is much cleaner than rsc... the amount of ddos'ing and hacking is pretty minimal among tip.it clans it seems. Hopefully some people take this to heart.. some arguing and debate is fine... however, when personal real life threats are made... thats when it has gone to far.

 

Yeah it was great up until last summer.

 

 

 

Removed deleted post quote.

 

not gona lie i LOL'd at this.

 

but yeah i try to stay away from those sort of clans that ddos etc. Kinda makes me think what will happen at runefest since there is quite a large ammount of hate towards other clans

 

That's where I'll DDos people's FACES. But seriously I would laugh if clan beef pulls up there, and wouldn't be the least bit surprised.

I have lived my life to the best of my ability, but I have not been able to escape fate, anger, or pain.

Bring me the answers, and the road that leads to truth, reveal to me once and for all, how all of this will end.

Shadows cannot exist without the light. But without the shadows, the light has no meaning.

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Yeah, it's getting out of hand. I agree with AM8, people who do this must have absolutely nothing outside of this game, and forget that despite all clan beef and drama, this is still an online game. We've been experiencing some sort of problems recently with our TeamSpeak, but it really doesn't bother us since we only have to think of the type of individual who'd do that, and then laugh at them.

 

In TO, we're very strict about no honour offences, with caught flamers often having a week suspension or a strike depending on what it is. However it's sad to see other clans lose control of their members who do crimes such as DDoSing, hacking, and I pin the blame on the Clan Leaders for not cracking down on these problems in the first place in these clans where people get away with murder just for the extra 3 options at a fight.

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Ex-Leader of Silent Ember - Ex-Leader of True Ownage - Ex-Leader of Legendz

Former Tip.It Clan Community Leader

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Well, to be honest, I have always believed that the ones who does the ddos/hacking/insult or whatever is because of inane reasons. Perhaps it is because of they are bored/trolling/epeen whatever. I honestly do not believe the people understand the full consequences of their actions. Hopefully the post will make at least some people realize what the hell they are doing and stop, and if they cannot, the clan world must isolate and reject every single one of them. Perhaps it is only then all this can go away.

 

Already read this on RSC, great read.

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Your comment in the title of "If you don't like me, don't read" made the topic lose a lot of credibility in my eyes (@His Lordship). If you're under the impression that people are so biased that they'll allow their feelings towards you as a person affect their judgement, then why even bother posting. By similar logic, those who do respect you as a person will agree with you regardless of what you say. Take that a few steps further and we're pretty much incapable of free thought. You're sort of saying "Well if you don't like me, you must be against me and everything I stand for." Ummm, no. That's one of the most polarizing statements I've ever come across. Anyway, I just feel that your title was poorly thought out and was directed your topic at the wrong group of people. Unless, of course, you were trying to preach to the choir.

 

The main topic is pretty well written. Idealistic, perhaps, but the same is true of pretty much any sort of mediation between clans.

 

Regardless, DDoS attacks and/or hacking (with definitive proof) result in an unconditional ban for TR members, and RL flaming could result in anywhere between a stern warning to a kick depending on the severity, so I guess this post wasn't exactly directed at me or my clan :P

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Your comment in the title of "If you don't like me, don't read" made the topic lose a lot of credibility in my eyes (@His Lordship). If you're under the impression that people are so biased that they'll allow their feelings towards you as a person affect their judgement, then why even bother posting. By similar logic, those who do respect you as a person will agree with you regardless of what you say. Take that a few steps further and we're pretty much incapable of free thought. You're sort of saying "Well if you don't like me, you must be against me and everything I stand for." Ummm, no. That's one of the most polarizing statements I've ever come across. Anyway, I just feel that your title was poorly thought out and was directed your topic at the wrong group of people. Unless, of course, you were trying to preach to the choir.

 

The main topic is pretty well written. Idealistic, perhaps, but the same is true of pretty much any sort of mediation between clans.

 

Regardless, DDoS attacks and/or hacking (with definitive proof) result in an unconditional ban for TR members, and RL flaming could result in anywhere between a stern warning to a kick depending on the severity, so I guess this post wasn't exactly directed at me or my clan :P

I hate to say it, but this is "his lordship" we're talking about. Given the large amount of immaturity in the clan world a huge number of people are so biased that they will allow their personal feelings to stand in the way of this topic.

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Regardless, DDoS attacks and/or hacking (with definitive proof) result in an unconditional ban for TR members, and RL flaming could result in anywhere between a stern warning to a kick depending on the severity, so I guess this post wasn't exactly directed at me or my clan :P

your clan is made of babeishness and win then.

 

Gratz

Look guys... I absolutely must be a mass baby-seal murderer!

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No one cares, it will happen regardless, it can't really be controlled either. If you kick the members Ddosing etc, your risking your own clan as they already have your info etc.

 

No one cares? It just pains me to see a clan official feel this way. The occasional "your clan sucks" and crash wars are inevitable. But when you have members who would go to a player's facebook and photoshop the pictures while post it over the internet. That is no different from cyber bullying, which is a crime in itself. Keep your virtual life separate from your real life.

 

Also are you really going to keep people who Ddos just because you are afraid they will somehow retaliate? What happened to rules and honor? Crime and punishment? You are going to let players slide just because you are afraid? What kind of a clan leader are you?

 

Perhaps this cannot be controlled, maybe the clan world will always be a mess. But it does not mean we cannot TRY. Making an effort is a HUGE step in cleaning the community, if everybody is going to sit there and say "oh man this can never be fixed." Then absolutely nothing can be done after.

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No one cares, it will happen regardless, it can't really be controlled either. If you kick the members Ddosing etc, your risking your own clan as they already have your info etc.

 

No one cares? It just pains me to see a clan official feel this way. The occasional "your clan sucks" and crash wars are inevitable. But when you have members who would go to a player's facebook and photoshop the pictures while post it over the internet. That is no different from cyber bullying, which is a crime in itself. Keep your virtual life separate from your real life.

 

Also are you really going to keep people who Ddos just because you are afraid they will somehow retaliate? What happened to rules and honor? Crime and punishment? You are going to let players slide just because you are afraid? What kind of a clan leader are you?

 

Perhaps this cannot be controlled, maybe the clan world will always be a mess. But it does not mean we cannot TRY. Making an effort is a HUGE step in cleaning the community, if everybody is going to sit there and say "oh man this can never be fixed." Then absolutely nothing can be done after.

 

Just putting it out there, but it's harder to see from your perspective. Sure it looks promising, but if you're within the mess of things you'll see how it can't be changed. If people don't care, they'll continue not to care. Of course there are limits and regulations on how far you can go, but really if you take things all the way clearly you wouldn't care about any punishments that a gaming clan can give you.

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Just putting it out there, but it's harder to see from your perspective. Sure it looks promising, but if you're within the mess of things you'll see how it can't be changed.

 

Nah, it's much more likely harder for you to see it from your perspective. The amount of BS that's involved with Crash wars, DoSing etc has just blinded you to it.

 

It's like: World hunger could be solved if all the leaders of the world got together and agreed to donate large sums of money to the poorer countries. But still, world hunger wont be solved because giving away money(trying to directly deal with NH scum) is not top of a Government's(clan leader's) agenda, how in the name of hell is upsetting the voters (clan members) going to win them votes (allow them to keep control).

Look guys... I absolutely must be a mass baby-seal murderer!

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No one cares, it will happen regardless, it can't really be controlled either. If you kick the members Ddosing etc, your risking your own clan as they already have your info etc.

 

No one cares? It just pains me to see a clan official feel this way. The occasional "your clan sucks" and crash wars are inevitable. But when you have members who would go to a player's facebook and photoshop the pictures while post it over the internet. That is no different from cyber bullying, which is a crime in itself. Keep your virtual life separate from your real life.

 

Also are you really going to keep people who Ddos just because you are afraid they will somehow retaliate? What happened to rules and honor? Crime and punishment? You are going to let players slide just because you are afraid? What kind of a clan leader are you?

 

Perhaps this cannot be controlled, maybe the clan world will always be a mess. But it does not mean we cannot TRY. Making an effort is a HUGE step in cleaning the community, if everybody is going to sit there and say "oh man this can never be fixed." Then absolutely nothing can be done after.

 

Just putting it out there, but it's harder to see from your perspective. Sure it looks promising, but if you're within the mess of things you'll see how it can't be changed. If people don't care, they'll continue not to care. Of course there are limits and regulations on how far you can go, but really if you take things all the way clearly you wouldn't care about any punishments that a gaming clan can give you.

 

Bad assumpation there, why do people not care? Because very minimum effort has been made trying to stop this. If clan leaders are willing to punish(kick the person out of the clan for example), then people will think twice about it. Furthur more I am sure we can agree that this kind of thing is WRONG and therefore there they SHOULD be stopped. Now whether or not this can be stopped is another question entirely, but it does not mean it is IMPOSSIBLE. Go for the extremes if you think it is required. Ban and blacklist everybody who has Ddos etc and give a warning beforehand. If the majority of clans are willing to do this, then at least some of the harrassment go stop. Hell the clan world can submitt the names of the players to Jagex in the clan leaders forum if it is needed.

 

TL;DR: Make an effort, then tell everyone how the clan world has failed themselves. Only then are the excuses justified.

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Only people who want to be rewarded something from an online game by breaking the rules/law is people who have never been rewarded something irl. Making fun of someone's personal life like an irl pic by saying they look like a piece of [cabbage] and will never accomplish anything is a whole other thing. Same thing goes with making fun of a family member, friend, girlfriend/boyfriend. Internet cyber bullying either comes from being bullied irl and can't make fun of anyone irl so they do it online or it comes from someone who is naturally like this emote :twisted:. But no matter what they are twisted.

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If it could've been changed it would've been changed by now. The goal in RuneScape clans is to be superior to the other clan by winning wars, etc. Trying to feel "superior" is also a feeling that many people want to have in real life, so why would it change in a game that you spend so many hours playing? That's why people ddos other people or do any sort of flaming because they want to feel stronger or superior than the other person. The fact of the matter is, every clan would have to do it and clearly if just one or two smaller clans do it, it wouldn't change much Even if one large clan tries to bring this to a reality, it again wouldn't change much. Policing the entire clan world is just insane, and trying to do it is just a wasted effort. There is just no real "reason" to stop doing it because there are no real gains from it, just moral values. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, it's just the way it is.

 

And your analogy using world hunger doesn't work because it doesn't involve the basic concept of clans. Look at terrorism: it's used because it's effective. My example works better because nuclear weapons were used as a way to make one country stronger than the other. Sure it can cost the lives of millions of people, but why should it matter? What gain is there by one country destroying all their nuclear weapons other than moral gains?

 

Being nice in real life is a lot different than being nice on the internet. Being nice on the internet doesn't mean anything. If you want to, then go ahead, but if you don't what does it matter? Ironically, if you're an [wagon] you receive a lot more gains than a nice person. Therefore there are no real ethical standards on the internet.

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If it could've been changed it would've been changed by now. The goal in RuneScape clans is to be superior to the other clan by winning wars, etc. Trying to feel "superior" is also a feeling that many people want to have in real life, so why would it change in a game that you spend so many hours playing? That's why people ddos other people or do any sort of flaming because they want to feel stronger or superior than the other person. The fact of the matter is, every clan would have to do it and clearly if just one or two smaller clans do it, it wouldn't change much Even if one large clan tries to bring this to a reality, it again wouldn't change much. Policing the entire clan world is just insane, and trying to do it is just a wasted effort. There is just no real "reason" to stop doing it because there are no real gains from it, just moral values. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, it's just the way it is.

 

And your analogy using world hunger doesn't work because it doesn't involve the basic concept of clans. Look at terrorism: it's used because it's effective. My example works better because nuclear weapons were used as a way to make one country stronger than the other. Sure it can cost the lives of millions of people, but why should it matter? What gain is there by one country destroying all their nuclear weapons other than moral gains?

 

Being nice in real life is a lot different than being nice on the internet. Being nice on the internet doesn't mean anything. If you want to, then go ahead, but if you don't what does it matter? Ironically, if you're an [wagon] you receive a lot more gains than a nice person. Therefore there are no real ethical standards on the internet.

 

Again, bad assumpation there, you are quitting before making an effort. How can you say nothing can be changed when NOTHING HAS BEEN DONE? Also no, the point of RS clans is not to feel superior, the point is to have FUN. Now winning is only a part of it, meet some great people and playing together is part of having fun as well. Are you really telling me that winning is the only thing left in warring? What happened to simply HAVING a great fight?

 

Now of course most people would want to feel superior, I mean there is nothing wrong with trying to win, online games included. But it is wrong to cheat by Ddos other players just to secure a win. Are you really telling me that people actually applaud the when a clan use Ddos to win? Do you really think people will care if you win when you cheated? Now from the reading RSC I can assume that a significant amount of players are apathic towards rule breaking, but few, if any actually openly supported the use of Ddos. This is a fact you cannot deny, people does not care if you win or not when you cheat. Clans who cheat receive no feeling of superiority when nobody acknowledges the win. Therefore there really is no point to Ddos.

 

Policing the entire clan world is absolutely not insane. Why would you think so? Because it is hard? Just because it is hard does not mean it is neccessary. Even if you have no moral standard at all, then think about why every so often a thread pops up on why the clan world is dying and where is the fresh blood? Where do you think they went? Do you really think a player who wants to try out clan will join when so much crap is happening? If the clan world wants some fresh blood, then start clearing up your act instead of keep recycling the scum bags that are ruining the clan world. Also why do you think clans like TT refuse to post on RSC? To avoid dealing with these things of course.

 

Terrorism is actually no as effective as you think, 9/11 brought America together, it is guerrilla warfare that is effective. Using nuclear warfare as an example is a big mistake you have just made too, are you honestly saying that creating nukes is fine because the end justify the means? "I get to controll the world because I can kill everyone who oppose me." Then what is left to rule? The point of destorying nukes is not just because of moral standards, not only it destorys the environment if it is any accident happens. They are very expensive to maintain and I really would not consider killing potential millions of people as a "moral standard".

 

Lastly, whether you like it or not, there is a moral standard on the internet, well except for maybe 4chan. If you treat people nice, they will behave nicely back, it is a rule of human behavior. Do you really think acting like an arse on the internet will be better? What POSSIBLE gain is there from being an arse? World wide recognition as an ass? On the other hand, if you behave nicely, you will be liked(I am sure you can pull the I don't care attituide, but I am sure you would prefer to be treated nicely than treated horribly.)

 

TL;DR: People LIKE to be treated nicely, serious actions needed to clean up the clan world and bringing in fresh blood. A general rule of honor and respect is IMPORTANT. Seriousy, the clan world went from "no flaming" to "Is ok to Ddos", what the hell is next? Lets hack RS accounts to win wars? The end does not justify the means, following your logic then bots and macroing is fine and everybody should do it because the end justify the means.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I'm not justifying anything. But to respond to a few of your points.

 

People don't openly support DDoSing because it makes them and their clan look stupid, even though they know that they do it too, which is hypocritical, but what can you do. It is the target of punishments a lot more than flaming is. Like so what you get flamed and you grow up, but ddosing is more damaging, and I know that. But, it's fairly hard to trace. Imagine being hit with a 500 host botnet. It's almost impossible to trace because there are 500 innocent computers that were used for it. And why waste thousands of dollars on an investigation on someone ddosing a small internet gaming forum?

 

And really the whole era of attitude has changed. If you look at a large portion of the larger clan world, you'll see trolling attempts left and right which isn't exactly "morally correct". People do what they want for fun, it's fun for them even though it's not for other people. In real life you see people "flaming" others in real life by calling them "fat, losers" etc. but it really isn't something we can all "band together" to control. What high school have you seen that is perfectly harmonious where everyone is equal outside of Disney? It'll be pretty hard to find one unless you happen to come across a rather prestigious one. My point being, it happens in real life as well as in this game, so it's not exactly some outlier that just happens. So real life flaming really isn't as controllable as DDoSing is for example.

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Excellent post from a very intelligent person. Pretty sad to escalate to things like DDOSing, hacking, and even real-life flaming..

 

RIP Thomas, your memory lives on forever. A true Corruption Legend.

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I'm not justifying anything. But to respond to a few of your points.

 

People don't openly support DDoSing because it makes them and their clan look stupid, even though they know that they do it too, which is hypocritical, but what can you do. It is the target of punishments a lot more than flaming is. Like so what you get flamed and you grow up, but ddosing is more damaging, and I know that. But, it's fairly hard to trace. Imagine being hit with a 500 host botnet. It's almost impossible to trace because there are 500 innocent computers that were used for it. And why waste thousands of dollars on an investigation on someone ddosing a small internet gaming forum?

 

And really the whole era of attitude has changed. If you look at a large portion of the larger clan world, you'll see trolling attempts left and right which isn't exactly "morally correct". People do what they want for fun, it's fun for them even though it's not for other people. In real life you see people "flaming" others in real life by calling them "fat, losers" etc. but it really isn't something we can all "band together" to control. What high school have you seen that is perfectly harmonious where everyone is equal outside of Disney? It'll be pretty hard to find one unless you happen to come across a rather prestigious one. My point being, it happens in real life as well as in this game, so it's not exactly some outlier that just happens. So real life flaming really isn't as controllable as DDoSing is for example.

 

The problem here is not whether or not it is possible to trace the offender, the problem here is the people's acceptance of it. Ddos borderlines as a criminal activity and cyber bullying is a flatout crime. I am not saying the clan should spend everything they have trying to punish the person, what I want to be changed is the people's reaction towards it. Right now if you ask a person in a clan, chances are his/her opinion towards Ddos will be acceptance. Not because it is completely stupid, but it is because nothing has being done towards it. I mean there are times where the person who did actually Ddos is found and nothing has being done towards it. This is what has to be chance, at least set up a few example to serve as a scare tactic rather than bend over and take it. In other words, do something.

 

 

Yes the attitude has been changed, and I believe I have just explained why. Yes people do flame, but I know no other competitive gaming community does this kind of thing. Hell RS clan community can be called 4chan of gaming clan communities. Do you really want this to stick? In real life people do flame, and that is when people can and should stand up for themselves. Even if bullying in real life is an act tolerated by all(which is obviously not), there is no reason to do it on the internet. Just because everybody does it does not make it right, do you not agree? You seem to be submitting to the will of the majority simply because you feel it is useless, but how would you know if no effort has been made?

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  • 4 weeks later...

I would post something long and drawn out and meaningful but this topic seems to have gone from an agreement that things like this shouldn't happen to something entirely different, so I will just say it straight.

 

My clan is low in numbers and things like this is the reason. Clan leaders (I do this myself) have to step up and look for quality rather than quantity. If all you care about is the amount of OP's you have at a war or the number of people on your members list then you don't truly care about the welfare of your clan or it's members. The quality of a member is if they will take the time to step back and think about what they are doing and be the bigger man (or woman) and walk away in difficult situations.

 

The clan leaders can say "no, stop, don't", they can forbid it, they can kick people out and ban them to the ends of the earth, but what it comes down to is the person that is committing these acts taking it into their own hands hand examining their own morality and learning to say "enough is enough" or even a simple NO! when pressure from their "E-Friends" is applied.

 

I don't allow this kind of behavior in my clan. It is punishable by banning and dismissal as well as the reporting of the IP address of the person to their ISP along with proof of the accusation (hacking is a crime after all). I have children, I'm a mother, I wouldn't want it to be my son or daughter that something this tragic happens to. So I step up, I get disliked by people for my stern rules about flaming and behavior when with my clan, but I am all the better for it.

 

EDIT: I have added the original post made by HisLordship to my clans forums. Maybe just maybe, like others have said, it will work doing it just one clan at a time.

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:S Sorry about all the trolls i did to you Dan.

 

---

 

Anyways, It is only a game so I don't really take this stuff seriously, But like sometimes i do... Like it's all a game why do we need all this trolling, hacking and flaming. Why can't we just enjoy playing the game of Scape?

 

 

Really good topic btw.

Recruit me pl0x?

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