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The Greatest Triangular Issue.


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Melee weapons have unlimited uses for one large one-off cost which can be redeemed at the end of use of said weapon.

JaGEx's halfass reason is that melee requires food, and that Magic and Ranged can safespot. However, one lobster every 5 monsters =/= 944gp/Fire Surge every round of attack, and Ranged and Magic can definitely require food as well.

 

NukeMarine describes a few of the most pressing issues with a bit more depth!:

There are three different issues at play here with regards to balance: Cost in Training the skill, Balance of combat between types, Balance of combat between levels.

 

Cost in Training

 

I think that Melee is unbalanced. It's cheap to train melee compared to the other combat styles. Jagex seriously needs to consider adding a fair training cost to melee (food ain't it). Degrading weapons and armor seems the most fair, with no impact on stats till it's 0%. Best way is balance the degradation is compare in cost to a guy that trains with arrows. How much does it cost a guy training with rune arrows from a safe spot compare to a guy training in full rune against an enemy that doesn't damage him fast enough to need food. Compare this for other metal types to get a fair level of degradation.

 

Also, mage is unbalanced as it can be trained with a non-combat spell such as alchemy. Seriously, that's like improving the attack skill because you train attacking a tree and an ore rock. Split magic into two skills - Combat magic or "Mage" and non-combat magic or "Wizard". Not sure how to fairly go about splitting the skill, but I think after an update a player is given the option of how much Magic XP goes to each skill after that it's set.

 

Balance in Combat by Type

 

This can be balanced with an over all philosophy that using gear of other combat styles lowers your bonuses in other styles. Sounds fair to me.

 

Balance in Combat across levels.

 

Here's where Jagex can begin smoothing the triangle. Start at level 10 gear and work it's way up. People with COMBAT LEVELS wearing opposing armor should win on average based on the triangle a certain percentage of the time. Of course, the higher the combat level wearing lower armor will have closer percentages than lower combat levels just by virtue of the armor/weapons having bigger impact.

 

 

Slightly less pressing issues abound!:

Melee weapons do not lose their ability to attack on death (stackables are always lost!).

Magic lacks a "huge hit" KO.

Magic can rarely be effectively trained in the same vein as melee or Ranged...

^ It should be noted that all three styles have expensive but extremely fast methods, which strangely enough can all be done on Ape Atoll.

When "unarmed", all a player can use is melee, which does make some sense. However, allowing the player to draw upon their magical energies for a weak Magic attack or pick up rocks off the ground for a weak Ranged attack doesn't seem like too much to ask for.

~More to come, but be assured they've probably been visited somewhere in this thread already!

 

[spoiler=So, my solution:]Unlimited uses of one type of combat spell / bolt / arrow bound to a weapon (so this binding is not lost on death)

4xp/HP inflicted for Magic damage (like melee and Ranged)

No longer must equip ammo or have inventory space taken up by runes

 

~In exchange for:

10,000 of each of the required runes or ammunition (non-refundable)*

Loss of that weapon's special attacks**

Casting XP - Ability to "splash AFK" is in effect also removed

 

* - A level in either Magic or Ranged is required equivalent to the skills needed to manufacture that ammo (65 Magic is required if a spell requires

** - Only if the ammo has a special ability, in which case the special attack becomes that ability. EX1: Ice Barrage would be able to freeze and hit 3x3 for 25% of the user's special attack bar; EX2: Dragonstone Bolt's special ability for 50%. The ammo or spell no longer naturally has its abilities.

 

Runecraft will be largely unaffected, aside from a possible HUGE boost when this suggestion was implemented. Runecrafters typically do not manufacture combat runes, focusing primarily on Nature, Astral, and Law Runes. Staves can only be bound to combat spells.

Fletching will be unaffected, because enchanted bolts aren't used for training anyway. The Rune Crossbow as a "Ranged Godsword" would cost 58.8m at current prices, and wouldn't be able to outhit the Armadyl Godsword anyway.

 

TL;DR: Ranged Godsword equivalent, and Ranged and Magic can be trained slower, but otherwise more economically equal to melee, and can be effectively used in PvP, as melee can.

 

Fairness.

 

Everyone is welcome to submit their own suggestions on this thread. If you're constructive. There will always be the dumb asses who don't read or ignore everything in favor of personal attacks. I will quote myself from this as is fit.

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Wouldn't it be...Ranged Godbow or something? Doesn't make sense for a GodSWORD to be used for ranged, unless you're planning on throwing it.

 

Aside from that, well, maybe this should be added, but not for everyone, considering many might hate this.

 

Also, I don't support the fact that you know that this belongs to another forum, yet you posted it on the wrong one on purpose.

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While i think many of your suggestions are very balancing, i think its fine as it is. Each combat style being distinctly different from the other.

 

Melee is the best for PVM, great for PVP KO's, and has very little upkeep, but highly priced weapons.

 

Mage is great for PVP, crap for PVM because of very large upkeep. But nonetheless is very powerful.

 

Range is good for PVP, and good for PVM, it has moderate upkeep and the weapons themselves are also moderately priced.

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Wouldn't it be...Ranged Godbow or something? Doesn't make sense for a GodSWORD to be used for ranged, unless you're planning on throwing it.

 

Aside from that, well, maybe this should be added, but not for everyone, considering many might hate this.

 

Also, I don't support the fact that you know that this belongs to another forum, yet you posted it on the wrong one on purpose.

 

Lol, really, there's a ton of threads like this in General. I just read one, in fact. I gave you a problem and then I told you how I would fix it.

It's not literally a ranged Godsword, it's the Rune Crossbow with unlimited Dragonstone Bolts, but with the special effect transferred to being a special attack.

 

The whole binding thing is optional. People could still use spells freely at the cost of runes if they wanted to.

 

I don't mine explaining things over again when people aren't flaming.

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If this would be implemented, we need an entirely new crossbow for range. If the rune crossbow had all that power for only 10k, it would be far too unfair.

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If this would be implemented, we need an entirely new crossbow for range. If the rune crossbow had all that power for only 10k, it would be far too unfair.

+ 10k of the bolt you want to have an unlimited amount of, that can't be refunded.

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I think your crazy when you say it wouldn't affect RC or fletching. That, to me, sounds like saying unlimited food wouldn't affect cooking because people don't cook for money.

 

Range ammunition all comes from people making it. They make it with fletching, Whether or not they make a profit, it still comes from this.

 

And what makes you think no one makes bloods? Or deaths? Or, how about F2P'ers making, I don't know, elemental runes? Maybe RC would get a BIT of a boost when this would hypothetically come out, but in the long run it would kill the spell. Think about it - if you have unlimited combat spells, are you going to train via alchemy/teleporting? No. Thus bringing the demand for those runes SIGNIFICANTLY down.

 

As for the Ranged Godsword, that's a stupid name for it. Also, why is it suddenly 58M? You either have it as a drop, in which case supply/demand affects the prices, or you have it from a shop, in which case 57m is a stupid amount. If your proposing to make this an Arma GW drop, say so. However, one of the key things about dragon bolts is, however expensive they are, people don't usually buy many in one sitting to use....

 

Also, one of the key things about Ice Barrage, and other Ancient Spells, vs Enchanted Bolts. Enchanted bolts come into effect randomly. It could be overpowered if people got to CHOOSE when to use their special. Especially the "blood" bolt special; if you got a team of what, 5 rangers, using their spec at the exact same time, it would k0 any and everything in the game. Except Corp. 20 rangers would be needed, but still instant k0.,,, As for ancient spells - the effect of those ALWAYS kicks in.

 

I think much more reasonable ideas are things like Battle Robes that don't require recharging. Still a rune cost, but less so. And maybe you can cast unlimited ELEMENTAL spells, but at a lower tier. Example: At 95 magic I get unlimited Fire Wave.

 

Maybe boomerangs for ranged, makes more sense - and these weapons would be powered down, to not overpower existing stuff.

 

Gives people a cheaper option while not rendering certain skill and weapons obsolete.....

 

And the fact that there's many other of these types of threads in other forums is no reason to deliberately put YOUR thread in the wrong forum. (Especially with what I consider very ill-conceived ideas.)

 

Frankly, with broad bolts, I think ranged works decently as is. Fairly effective at not too too high a price. Maybe a slightly cheaper, less effective alternative could be implemented.

 

As for magic, frankly....if they made a cheap-ish staff that still had some rune saving abilities, cheap, non-degradeable robes that do this, and add more items like the chaos gauntlets, that would fix a large part of mage. (Seriously, chaos are lke 50ea atm. With battle robes, SoL, Arcane Stream, you'd save a lot of runes while potentially hitting 20+. Only problem is these items are harder to get for lower levels. Maybe add another, easier to get necklace, that boost the power of chaos spells? That'd fix a hell of a lot of the combat triangle.)

 

And I'm barely even trying....

 

EDIT: Ok, your Dragonfire crossbow idea kinda works. Cos you need 10k bolts. But, erm, handcannon? I'd rather get 90 firemaking then 10k dragon bolts. Fix that thing up a little, and you have a very powerful ranged weapon. Hell, it still works fairly well now, despite the un-official high firemaking requirement to use it without it exploding too often. Ranged can work better, in a sense, for PVP then powerful melee weapons - you spend a (relatively) small amount on a ranged weapon and ammunition to PK with, VS a large amount on a melee weapon. You don't have to worry about the melee weapon running out, but if you die, you lose much more. (Depending on if your in a protect item world or not.)

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Hmm... The only thing I don't like is this:

 

** - Only if the ammo has a special ability, in which case the special attack becomes that ability. EX1: Ice Barrage would be able to freeze and hit 3x3 for 25% of the user's special attack bar; EX2: Dragonstone Bolt's special ability for 50%. The ammo or spell no longer naturally has its abilities.

 

If applied, how would one use the Staff of Light's Special? Maybe 2 special bars?

 

I like this. I'd use this, so long as the spells and bolts retain their original abilities if they are cast from Runes or shot from unbound bolts. It would have to be worked carefully, though. I can only imagine what Arma GWD would be like if every first hit was a Ruby Bolt spec... And being able to use the Dragon Bolt's effect there at will? Scary...

 

The balance would have to be done extremely well... But it is an interesting idea. One that I would use and abuse... =D Let us have Blood Barrage's effect, even when bound, pl0x. That would be so awesome.

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On Runecraft:

Not everyone is going to take this option. It's kind of like buying or renting - You can either pay a much higher, one-off cost, or you can pay a lower cost but get no refund for it - You can either pay to imbue a staff with a spell, or you can buy the runes you need now. Also, people still need a ton of runes for barraging lobsters, because these staves will NOT work since the 3x3 ability is in the special attack, and I'm pretty sure people won't risk a SOL + Ice Barrage staff on a PvP world to save them some runes.

 

Ranged Godsword is a figurative name for it. You don't miss that unless you just aren't reading carefully.

 

The Ruby Bolt special attack would probably cost the entire 100%.

The special attack takes away 20% of the target's REMAINING HP, meaning that although a lot of damage would be inflicted, your 5-hits-at-once KOs wouldn't be possible.

 

I'm done with your list. I put thought into my solutions before I post them. I've listed pros and cons. If something can be improved then it should be. I don't agree that things are anywhere near "good as as they are".

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requaring ice barrage to take up 25% spec to freeze is rediculous, thats 4 freezes every 5 minutes

 

there is a godbow, its called a hand cannon

 

1. takes 75 range

2. slow, gs speed i believe

3. accurate as rune cbow

4. powerfull, hits 60s

5. powerfull spec

6. good for ko/pvp but not for training

7. fairly expensive as far as range weapons go

 

i personaly think mage and range are fine how they are however....

 

i think dungeoneering is an example of a near perfect combat triangle, and the rest of rs shoudl example off that

 

for example the range armor gives - melee bonus, this keeps meleers from just wearing dhide to kill mages, because even if they do gain that def advantage then they loose accuracy the same as the mage, this is just 1 example

 

another example, longbows are as powerful as short, 2hs and slower weapons are just as usefull as faster weapons, maybe even better than rapiers

 

sadly jagex said daemonheim is seperate for a reason and they wont make rs's triangle match theirs, they agree it was intended to be very balanced but the outside is too hard to change all at once and needs time

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Once again, Godsword bow wasn't meant to be taken literally. Sounds like a fun idea though, a batista that fires Godswords.

 

The Handcannon is a separate deal entirely. Personally, I don't think it should have a chance of ever breaking if the user has 90 or so Firemaking.

 

And I guess I didn't make it clear enough - This '10k ammo for unlimited ammo' deal doesn't just apply to bolts - it applies to arrows, and even possibly your HC shots, although that's definitely open for discussion, but even so 90 or even 93+ Firemaking would be a fair requirement for both the HC not combusting and being able to take advantage of the unlimited ammo deal.

 

The armors definitely need to be worked on, but that's almost a separate thread entirely. If you would like to put it into greater details, I'll quote you and add it to the first post.

 

Dungeoneering seems great at first glance, and although I am grateful for it, they didn't think to solve some core issues. Hell, they could make ammo packs there, and it would actually make a lot of sense...

 

This is my final reply for tonight, just FYI.

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I must agree it's pretty balanced. 10k dragon bolts is 50m, not sure if I would ever use that much in amo. Binding ice barrage would actually be completely pointless even. The whole thing is about freezing your opponent and hitting multiple opponents (in cwars etc. at least). You might as wel bind fire surge, and even then it would take a while to "make money" out of it.

 

Still, I don't really support. I don't really see a need for it IMO. Okay, it's not "fair", magic is more expensive, and whatnot, but all in all, I'm happy with that variety.

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On Runecraft:

Not everyone is going to take this option. It's kind of like buying or renting - You can either pay a much higher, one-off cost, or you can pay a lower cost but get no refund for it - You can either pay to imbue a staff with a spell, or you can buy the runes you need now. Also, people still need a ton of runes for barraging lobsters, because these staves will NOT work since the 3x3 ability is in the special attack, and I'm pretty sure people won't risk a SOL + Ice Barrage staff on a PvP world to save them some runes.

 

Ranged Godsword is a figurative name for it. You don't miss that unless you just aren't reading carefully.

 

The Ruby Bolt special attack would probably cost the entire 100%.

The special attack takes away 20% of the target's REMAINING HP, meaning that although a lot of damage would be inflicted, your 5-hits-at-once KOs wouldn't be possible.

 

I'm done with your list. I put thought into my solutions before I post them. I've listed pros and cons. If something can be improved then it should be. I don't agree that things are anywhere near "good as as they are".

 

Yes, but if 5 people use it *at the same time* then it will k0 anything except Corp. And Jad, simply cos you solo him. Same time you see. Not consecutive hits. The monster is at full hp when 5 blood bolt specials hit him - each removng 1/5th of his total hp. 5 of them hit him, when he's at full hp. Therefore, all 5 remove 1/5th of his hp. Or LP.

 

Honestly, I don't see any problem with you needing to pay for constant runes or arrows to range or mage with. As long as you can find cheap enough alternatives. Honestly, release a chaos necklace, another item like the chaos gaunlets...

 

Oh, and yeah, the hand cannon is basically this ranged "godsword" you looking for. It could use improvement however.

 

And, erm, the 3x3 effect is somewhat different from the hits 9 targets effect. When you barrage/burst rock lobsters, they're all on ze same square. Assuming your including the multi-target hit with the 3x3 hit....

 

On second thought, that's not a bad idea. Not that I support the UNLIMITED effect idea....but if people still needed runes to consistently use the ancients effect, then perhaps this staff idea isn't a bad idea. I'd rather see some rune usage though.....

 

I think doing something a long the lines of this with elemental spells is a better idea. More like a Fire Surge staff that saves 90% of the Fire Surge runes.

 

I still disagree with the concept of unlimited runes/arrows. And I still fail to see how you wouldn't be able to instant k0 something with the blood bolt special if the monster gets hit with 5 of them at the same time.

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All Jagex had to do was make weapons and armor decay/degrade over time. That puts a cost into melee on par with mage and range. Problem then becomes: How do weapons and armor decay/degrade in a way that's fair and easy on server memory?

 

Point based (like crystal): Requires memory to store decay rate of each weapon type

Time based (like barrows): Still requires memory to story time being used.

Chance based (like hand cannon): No memory issue. Degrades based on weapon/armor quality and skill of the player. Might create doubt about fairness as it still is random.

 

So, does a decayed weapon affect it's ability (like crystal) or not (like barrows).

 

Next, can it be repaired by players (like barrows) or not (like crystal).

 

Way back when, I suggested letting armor and weapons decay randomly. It'd decay in levels of 10 like crystal though. Players with the right smithing level could repair the items using "repair disks" which you get five disks per metal bar. The number of bars it took to originally make an item decided the number of disks to repair it. So a rune plate at 50% is 2.5 bars x 5 or 13 disks to repair.

 

But then comes the next question: How does that apply to non-smithable items like all those quest, treasure trail and special monster drops?

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Fun idea, but Jeddyflex is way too lazy to do all that stuff.

 

They like keeping the game broken.

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I don't know exactly how the server calculates the order of hits, but I would assume that even if we perceive them as all landing at the same time, the server has still given them each a different place in the order, meaning that not all of the hits are calculated at 20% of the target's starting HP.

 

I would be happy enough if they only did this for elemental spells - What I'm looking for are Ranged and Magic weapons that behave like melee weapons, as in the user does not have to worry about not being able to attack another round, does not have to worry about losing their weapon on death (think stackables!), and gains equal XP for attacking (4XP per hit instead of cast XP and 2XP per hit). However, seeing as how Ranged and Magic armors do not have appropriate stats, the user should still be able to attack from a distance.

 

On the flipside, as NukeMarine has suggested, I'm not sure I like the idea of everyone losing, but it is a viable alternative and should be considered.

 

I would be okay with melee armor and weapons degrading, but not losing stats, and not having a random chance of self destruction, but I would be happier with Magic and Ranged having melee's unlimited attack and training abilities.

 

How about this for an explanation, for Ranged: Ava's Accumulator can be attached to the Rune Crossbow (or other weapon) itself, and does not require the user to have a direct line-of-sight. A bolt pouch or arrow holder (or rune pouch?) may be equipped in the ammo slot, and will always be kept on death.

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I don't know exactly how the server calculates the order of hits, but I would assume that even if we perceive them as all landing at the same time, the server has still given them each a different place in the order, meaning that not all of the hits are calculated at 20% of the target's starting HP.

 

I would be happy enough if they only did this for elemental spells - What I'm looking for are Ranged and Magic weapons that behave like melee weapons, as in the user does not have to worry about not being able to attack another round, does not have to worry about losing their weapon on death (think stackables!), and gains equal XP for attacking (4XP per hit instead of cast XP and 2XP per hit). However, seeing as how Ranged and Magic armors do not have appropriate stats, the user should still be able to attack from a distance.

 

On the flipside, as NukeMarine has suggested, I'm not sure I like the idea of everyone losing, but it is a viable alternative and should be considered.

 

I would be okay with melee armor and weapons degrading, but not losing stats, and not having a random chance of self destruction, but I would be happier with Magic and Ranged having melee's unlimited attack and training abilities.

 

How about this for an explanation, for Ranged: Ava's Accumulator can be attached to the Rune Crossbow (or other weapon) itself, and does not require the user to have a direct line-of-sight. A bolt pouch or arrow holder (or rune pouch?) may be equipped in the ammo slot, and will always be kept on death.

 

I really doubt that actually. I think 5 ruby bolts hitting something at once is an instant k0.

 

Also, elemental spells actually give a base of 4exp last I checked, plus a base exp for the spell. The only time you get 2exp a hit is on ancients, when you can hit up to 9 targets a hit. Frankly, I don't see a problem with the ammunition style of play for ranged/mage - personally, I think the only broken one is magic because it's so bleeding expensive. Frankly, I think Boomerangs could work if you want unlimited range hits - makes a lot more sense then unlimited arrows. If implemented, it would be weak for whatever level require it has. A one-off price alternative that's fairly cheap, but not that effective.

 

Same concept for Magic - you'd need say 95 magic for unlimited fire wave. I think I actually posted this idea somewhere...

 

But frankly, I don't think range is too bad as is, magic just needs to boost fire bolt damage and we're good imo. Except maybe at a very low level.

 

But hey, for very low level, you can hit FoG, where you DO get unlimited runes.

 

And yeah, fixing up the handcannon would be nice. Make it not break, more expensive to balance for that, or just a firemaking level where it simply WILL NOT break once you have that level. Although once you get in the 90s I don't think that's a problem. I need 90 firemaking sometime so I can pwn td's with a handcannon and not have two of them explode in under 15 minutes...

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I don't think Ranged is too bad off at the moment either, but I was merely suggesting the Magic updates transfer over to Ranged too, in the interest of fairness. Still, even if Magic were cheaper, it would be like a cracked glass - you can still drink from the untouched side, but the glass is still broken...

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Every combat class is not supposed to be the same. Don't try to fix what is not broken. Magic is not only a combat skill but can also be trained in other ways. Also, melee is now 200k an hour, too.

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Although I will concede that I may not have the best solutions for fixing it, it is definitely broken. It doesn't matter if it's been this way since the beginning - That just means it's always been broken!

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Well, actually, it hasn't always been "broken" since combat started from just melee and evolved further.

 

The combat triangle as it is didn't exist for quite a while, so I think it's more of a result of having to develop from gradual changes which forced it to adapt in ways that are not ideal for balancing.

 

It is up to them to figure out what they want to do with it, though. I laugh to think that we could ultimately influence their decision on the matter. We may as well be a puppet show to them.

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It is up to them to figure out what they want to do with it, though. I laugh to think that we could ultimately influence their decision on the matter. We may as well be a puppet show to them.

 

One can only hope that MMG has a puppet fetish...

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When I think of balancing the combat triangle, I like to think in such a way. Pit a 10 ranged/defence player, a level 10 def 10 mage/defence playerand a level 10 strength/attack/defence playeragainst each other in their best equipment for that level and without hybriding. Record the amount of victory and loss including time taken for each round, adjust the maximum damage and the defensive capabilities of gear , and repeat the whole process for level 20, 30, 40, 60, 70 and such.

 

Once the damage and armour stats have been fixed, THEN go into the cost fixing. Personally I think that magic being expensive is a result of people unwilling to train Runecrafting as opposed to say, Fletching. Rune saving abilites and such, while nice, are more like brute force solutions that don't solve the fundamental problems. Your suggestion for binding a non-refundable amount of ammo/runes to the weapon isn't the most elegant way to solve the problem either.

 

I have grand ideas for Magic, and I'm sure everyone has some ideas and suggestions as to how to improve the combat system. But the fact is Jagex is too inefficient and unwilling to make the changes for fear of a heavy backlash from the players themselves.

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Although I will concede that I may not have the best solutions for fixing it, it is definitely broken. It doesn't matter if it's been this way since the beginning - That just means it's always been broken!

Well then, where are your ideas on non-combat melee and range training. It's obviously all broken atm because every combat class doesn't train the same way with the same cost? The combat triangle doesn't make you choose sides and hamper your ability to use the other styles, thus it's completely fine as it is. If you were forced to be a ''mage'' and couldn't train neither melee/ranged or use non-combat spells, it'd be broken.

 

By the way, if i were allowed unlimited onyx(e) bolts for 90m on a chaotic crossbow, i'd take that over anything, it'd be ridiculously overpowered.

First to 99 Farming on 27. September, 2005.

First to 3766 Port Score on 20. March, 2014.

First to 4664 Port Score on 2. March, 2015.

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