The Greatest Triangular Issue.

[Sir_Squab]

When I think of balancing the combat triangle, I like to think in such a way. Pit a 10 ranged/defence player, a level 10 def 10 mage/defence playerand a level 10 strength/attack/defence playeragainst each other in their best equipment for that level and without hybriding. Record the amount of victory and loss including time taken for each round, adjust the maximum damage and the defensive capabilities of gear , and repeat the whole process for level 20, 30, 40, 60, 70 and such.

 

Once the damage and armour stats have been fixed, THEN go into the cost fixing. Personally I think that magic being expensive is a result of people unwilling to train Runecrafting as opposed to say, Fletching. Rune saving abilites and such, while nice, are more like brute force solutions that don't solve the fundamental problems. Your suggestion for binding a non-refundable amount of ammo/runes to the weapon isn't the most elegant way to solve the problem either.

 

I have grand ideas for Magic, and I'm sure everyone has some ideas and suggestions as to how to improve the combat system. But the fact is Jagex is too inefficient and unwilling to make the changes for fear of a heavy backlash from the players themselves.

 

To be honest, with items like handcannon, ancient spells, arcane stream, it's balanced damage-wise imo. Mage is extremely deadly if used right. The catch is cost - atm, dunge items in PVP don't work well because it's so hard to replace. Once Jagex makes it cheaper to replace items you've purchased before, and adds the second patch of dungeoneering in like the fall or w/e so we have higher floors to gain more exp on, I think we'll be good.

 

The other thing is runes cost too much. The reason people don't train RC that much, or get high levels, is because it's very slow. Still profitable. One idea I have to fix this is to implement more multiple runes per ess. Have multiple runes for ALL runes based on the level for air runes. SO at 99, you could make 10 of every rune. Dunno how well that would go down, but it'd make mage a lot cheaper ;)

 

And actually, in case you haven't noticed, Jagex IS slowly making mage better. The Surge spells are actually pretty decent, Staff of Light, Arcane Stream.....slowly, slowly....

 

Hmm, to reiterate other ideas, unlimited bolts at the very least is a bad idea. Arrows wouldn't be as bad tbh. As for spells, no unlimited ancients, but perhaps unlimited elemental spells, a tier lower then the best spell you can cast. I.E., I can cast fire surge, so I'd be able to cast unlimited fire WAVE somehow. If this idea is implemented - personally, I don't like it much.

[Blutters]

Although I will concede that I may not have the best solutions for fixing it, it is definitely broken. It doesn't matter if it's been this way since the beginning - That just means it's always been broken!

Well then, where are your ideas on non-combat melee and range training. It's obviously all broken atm because every combat class doesn't train the same way with the same cost? The combat triangle doesn't make you choose sides and hamper your ability to use the other styles, thus it's completely fine as it is. If you were forced to be a ''mage'' and couldn't train neither melee/ranged or use non-combat spells, it'd be broken.

 

By the way, if i were allowed unlimited onyx(e) bolts for 90m on a chaotic crossbow, i'd take that over anything, it'd be ridiculously overpowered.

Non-combat Magic is practically a skill unto itself, but there's no way that it could be split off and still make sense, even though that's really what needs to happen.

I believe in equal opportunity for training for all three skills. IF they're meant to work in a triangle, they should all be equally accessible.

Because Magic, and Ranged to a lesser extent, are harder to get into training, you are hampered in the opposite way in that you have to train melee. New players and players in general should have the choice of being a mage, ranger, or warrior, and the system is broken because it doesn't support this, and gives much more weight to melee and melee training. This particular point of yours defeated itself... #-o

 

By the way, you should read the fine print on that option, even though you're probably just trying to nitpick by now. You get unlimited hits that have the accuracy and strength of Onyx Bolts, but the special effect is transferred to your special attack bar, meaning you choose when to use it, but it will not activate randomly, so it will probably activate less. A fitting trade-off, I should think. The price is fair. It's unlikely that even with the highest bonuses possible Onyx Bolts would hit 50+...

[Quasar]

I hit over 500 with diamonds overloaded.

[Blutters]

I hit over 500 with diamonds overloaded.

Right. With a normal hit? You're probably exaggerating, but I don't have extensive experience with Diamond Bolts and no experience with Extremes to prove you wrong.

Regardless, melee can hit that high with supers and whip, and much higher with Chaotic weapons or Godswords. If we really wanted to, we could consider Onyx Bolts the ammo intended for the Chaotic Crossbow, and if my plan or similar were ever implemented, could limit Onyx and even Dragonstone to the Chaotic Crossbow.

[xpx]

Well it'd be stupid to argue with the idea of limited special because .... it will never happen. I'm not going to argue with your imagination. It's not a good idea and there is no reason at all to implement those things. What is your real point in this? Life isn't fair, still we all live, the game design was put in place by people other than yourself which means you have no say in the matter and can't really judge if it's broken...because you didn't come up with the original design.

 

Other than that, i don't think all combat classes should be used equally within themselves. I'm not going to melee rock lobsters, mage kree'arra or range bandos, and that's how it's supposed to be. Every combat class isn't supposed to be equal in terms of use for every monster, and since magic is dominantly trained within non-combat spells, the cost of training it with fire surge isn't important. The game design was implemented for you to use the combat style that best fits your needs/skills and the enemys weaknesses, while you are not restricted to any one or two classes. This isn't wow or any other mmorpg where you have to choose a class. This is runescape, and you either adapt to the setup or not.

[Profins]

So, is this a suggestion on how to fix a combat triangle or a rant about how it's broken?

 

Either case, wrong place dear sir

[Blutters]

Well it'd be stupid to argue with the idea of limited special because .... it will never happen. I'm not going to argue with your imagination. It's not a good idea and there is no reason at all to implement those things. What is your real point in this? Life isn't fair, still we all live, the game design was put in place by people other than yourself which means you have no say in the matter and can't really judge if it's broken...because you didn't come up with the original design.

 

Other than that, i don't think all combat classes should be used equally within themselves. I'm not going to melee rock lobsters, mage kree'arra or range bandos, and that's how it's supposed to be. Every combat class isn't supposed to be equal in terms of use for every monster, and since magic is dominantly trained within non-combat spells, the cost of training it with fire surge isn't important. The game design was implemented for you to use the combat style that best fits your needs/skills and the enemys weaknesses, while you are not restricted to any one or two classes. This isn't wow or any other mmorpg where you have to choose a class. This is runescape, and you either adapt to the setup or not.

Now you're just trying to step on toes... :rolleyes:

I said the combat classes should have equal opportunities, not the same opportunities. There should be places where each of them can be used to their full extent, and people should be able to have the means to choose what they want to be. There are also monsters and instances where any of the three points could be equally effective, if not for the vast differences in costs. JaGEx has been addressing this issue, but very slowly. For if they were to actually fix it and set things right, the oldie conservative players like yourself would cry, cut, and quit from fear of change, no matter how correct it is.

JaGEx has stated time and time again that there is supposed to be a triangle, and JaGEx itself has acknowledged time and time again that this currently is not the case.

Maybe nothing we say can influence them, but that doesn't mean it's pointless to talk about it.

This is a forum meant for discussion, isn't it? If you don't believe there's a problem, kindly say so, and actually support yourself, and move on. Or, actually be constructive and give an alternative solution to what I've proposed.

[Profins]

I was just thinking that with all the "Combat triangle is unbalanced" threads going around, yours just seemed like a suggestion that could've been posted in any other of these threads. And as for your suggestion, what it is, a suggestion, they will never, ever make free spellcasting. Yes, I say free, because apart from the trivial cost of 10k casts or whatever, people will have no trouble getting 200m magic exp just by shooting something that's trapped while wearing enough magic reduction. Have fun with the entire Edgeville ditch full of people throwing their surges at whatever they can.

[Blutters]

I was just thinking that with all the "Combat triangle is unbalanced" threads going around, yours just seemed like a suggestion that could've been posted in any other of these threads. And as for your suggestion, what it is, a suggestion, they will never, ever make free spellcasting. Yes, I say free, because apart from the trivial cost of 10k casts or whatever, people will have no trouble getting 200m magic exp just by shooting something that's trapped while wearing enough magic reduction. Have fun with the entire Edgeville ditch full of people throwing their surges at whatever they can.

Right, okay. Suggest something better.

For the record, my suggestion also removed casting XP in favor of 4xp per damage, but I doubt you read that closely anyway before throwing down a criticizing and pointless post.

[howbadisbad]

requaring ice barrage to take up 25% spec to freeze is rediculous, thats 4 freezes every 5 minutes

 

there is a godbow, its called a hand cannon Your joking right?

 

1. takes 75 range

2. slow, gs speed i believe

3. accurate as rune cbow no.

4. powerfull, hits 60s no.

5. powerfull spec no.

6. good for ko/pvp but not for training no.

7. fairly expensive as far as range weapons go

 

 

Fail.

[Zepheras]

When I think of balancing the combat triangle, I like to think in such a way. Pit a 10 ranged/defence player, a level 10 def 10 mage/defence playerand a level 10 strength/attack/defence playeragainst each other in their best equipment for that level and without hybriding. Record the amount of victory and loss including time taken for each round, adjust the maximum damage and the defensive capabilities of gear , and repeat the whole process for level 20, 30, 40, 60, 70 and such.

 

Once the damage and armour stats have been fixed, THEN go into the cost fixing. Personally I think that magic being expensive is a result of people unwilling to train Runecrafting as opposed to say, Fletching. Rune saving abilites and such, while nice, are more like brute force solutions that don't solve the fundamental problems. Your suggestion for binding a non-refundable amount of ammo/runes to the weapon isn't the most elegant way to solve the problem either.

 

I have grand ideas for Magic, and I'm sure everyone has some ideas and suggestions as to how to improve the combat system. But the fact is Jagex is too inefficient and unwilling to make the changes for fear of a heavy backlash from the players themselves.

 

To be honest, with items like handcannon, ancient spells, arcane stream, it's balanced damage-wise imo. Mage is extremely deadly if used right. The catch is cost - atm, dunge items in PVP don't work well because it's so hard to replace. Once Jagex makes it cheaper to replace items you've purchased before, and adds the second patch of dungeoneering in like the fall or w/e so we have higher floors to gain more exp on, I think we'll be good.

 

The other thing is runes cost too much. The reason people don't train RC that much, or get high levels, is because it's very slow. Still profitable. One idea I have to fix this is to implement more multiple runes per ess. Have multiple runes for ALL runes based on the level for air runes. SO at 99, you could make 10 of every rune. Dunno how well that would go down, but it'd make mage a lot cheaper ;)

 

And actually, in case you haven't noticed, Jagex IS slowly making mage better. The Surge spells are actually pretty decent, Staff of Light, Arcane Stream.....slowly, slowly....

 

Hmm, to reiterate other ideas, unlimited bolts at the very least is a bad idea. Arrows wouldn't be as bad tbh. As for spells, no unlimited ancients, but perhaps unlimited elemental spells, a tier lower then the best spell you can cast. I.E., I can cast fire surge, so I'd be able to cast unlimited fire WAVE somehow. If this idea is implemented - personally, I don't like it much.

 

 

The problem with Magic is that for normal PVM like Slayer, damage rate for an average mage is lower than that compared to an average meleer or ranger. Sure, if you get the best of every gear and both would be equally deadly in terms of max damage, but who's going to overload for Slayer? Melee is practically free since weapons can be resold, and rangers use broad bolts with accumulator for normal training.

 

The normal spellbook should be tweaked such that medium cost would allow mages to hit more or less the same as a ranger using broad bolts. Add more magic weakness to several monsters, such as with ice strykewyrms. Depending on the rune demand, Runecraft formula can be tweaked to meet that as well. Even potions too, I drink a dose of super set and get a +18 stats boost, and drink back up with I'm down to +5, that's 14 minutes per dose. For magic, I use the wolpertinger special which is +7 magic (which I believe is the equivalent of an extreme magic dose), for a total of 21% damage boost, but it can only last at most 7 mins?

[Sir_Kurity]

SO at 99, you could make 10 of every rune. Dunno how well that would go down, but it'd make mage a lot cheaper ;)

 

First let me start by saying that this would be awesome...

 

But, DONT KNOW HOW THAT WOULD GO DOWN?!!!!

 

People would [bleep]ing die, the world would explode! Everyone would [cabbage] bricks!

[xpx]

It's not really a discussion if you are forcing your opinion upon us and suggesting how something you think is broken can be fixed. Yes, this game has an implemented combat triangle, but, as most rs players know, as it hasn't always been there(there was no combat triangle in rsc) using any one combat class in runescape is flat out stupid. For pking, the triangle is very balanced and people hybrid. For monsters, hybriding doesn't make sense, so it's easier to use one combat style that is easiest to use. Since the combat triangle doesn't force you to CHOOSE a combat style and it was not meant for you to CHOOSE a combat style from the beginning, it's totally fine as it is. This is NOT some other game where you are supposed to be a dwarf for the rest of your life, this is runescape, and because of that, it is built differantly. High end melee/ranged have the same dps and magic dps is somewhat lower, with great special abilities and an use outside of combat(i can't stress this more, magic HAS an use outside of combat, melee and ranged do NOT). Equal opportunities? well if you have decided for yourself to become a representative of only one combat class, you are setting yourself up to fail. Just get over your faulty impressions about this game, the design is differant, and it works.

 

As for being conservative, why not? is rs better now than it was 5 years ago? NO. Even the numbers prove that. Sure, everyone has a point of view about how this game could be better for THEM, but with jagex running this game, it's best to keep them to yourself. I don't write my dreams on this forum, why should you?

[Blutters]

It's not really a discussion if you are forcing your opinion upon us and suggesting how something you think is broken can be fixed. Yes, this game has an implemented combat triangle, but, as most rs players know, as it hasn't always been there(there was no combat triangle in rsc) using any one combat class in runescape is flat out stupid. For pking, the triangle is very balanced and people hybrid. For monsters, hybriding doesn't make sense, so it's easier to use one combat style that is easiest to use. Since the combat triangle doesn't force you to CHOOSE a combat style and it was not meant for you to CHOOSE a combat style from the beginning, it's totally fine as it is. This is NOT some other game where you are supposed to be a dwarf for the rest of your life, this is runescape, and because of that, it is built differantly. High end melee/ranged have the same dps and magic dps is somewhat lower, with great special abilities and an use outside of combat(i can't stress this more, magic HAS an use outside of combat, melee and ranged do NOT). Equal opportunities? well if you have decided for yourself to become a representative of only one combat class, you are setting yourself up to fail. Just get over your faulty impressions about this game, the design is differant, and it works.

 

As for being conservative, why not? is rs better now than it was 5 years ago? NO. Even the numbers prove that. Sure, everyone has a point of view about how this game could be better for THEM, but with jagex running this game, it's best to keep them to yourself. I don't write my dreams on this forum, why should you?

Defending my fix isn't forcing it on you. Allow me to edit my first post, so that it doesn't appear so in whatever slight sense you took it to.

Since you're so intent that how "the game is meant to be" should be whatever the will of the creators is, it's baffling that you won't acknowledge how much they've talked about how the triangle is unbalanced. They've even been creating updates specifically meant to introduce new players to the triangle. They've even said at one point or another that they never intended for people to hybrid...

There are monsters with specific weaknesses and those with no particular weakness. Magic should be a viable option, comparable to melee and Ranged. Recent updates are bringing it closer to this point, but cost-wise and perhaps damage-wise it's still not there.

 

Once again, you're taking what I've said to the extreme. In no way should you be forced to be any combat class, but because of the relative ease of meleeing, and difficulty of maging, you are "forced" to start off as a warrior. I'm saying that you should be able to start off as whatever you want to be. I'm fully aware after completing every quest and taking part in the vast majority of activities that you can't experience the game in its entirety as just a warrior, mage, or ranger.

 

Magic combat and Magic alchemy/teleportation/enchantment are basically two different skills with the same name. If Magic is supposed to be an equivalent point of the combat triangle, it hardly matters that there is a use outside of combat. I don't even know why you keep bringing that up, as it's entirely unrelated to Magic as a combat skill. Magic as a "support" skill doesn't in any way make up for its relative ineffectiveness in combat. Also, you mention Magic having great combat effects as if melee and Ranged don't themselves have powerful special effects and attacks.

 

JaGEx has stated time and time again that there is supposed to be a triangle, and JaGEx itself has acknowledged time and time again that this currently is not the case.

Maybe nothing we say can influence them, but that doesn't mean it's pointless to talk about it.

This is a forum meant for discussion, isn't it? We are entitled to discuss. You have the right to make a thread about how you wish things were just as much as I had the right to make this thread concerning balance.

 

Oh, and just as an FYI...

http://runescape.wikia.com/wiki/Classic#Classes

[Knight_Zaros]

No not signed.

 

End topic/

 

How do I say this without flaming... Uhh pretty much the least liked combat discussion I've scene started here. And I've scene like 20 in two days. (at least as it retains to the first post I didn't read the entire thread). Basically what I dont like about your idea is it screws with to many things a ton of raw materials/equipment/etc. prices for one. And your talking about changing how a basic function thats been the same since we've begun runescape. Saying magic is underpowered or not balanced (in that its less good than melee and or range) is hilarious. You can train magic effectiently and profitable with a little luck, patience and skill. I've trained to level 95 magic for example almost exclusively on combat magic with probably 90% of my magic experience coming from metals along, and can honestly say I've probably broken even if I where to guess. And training magic at metals is by far not the most cost effective way of doing so, even training it by combat.

 

What your asking is to make range and magic free/and or much cheaper, so an update to make the game easier. Not interested, never will be and a change like this would impact the game negatively to any 'real' magic user/lover.

[Blutters]

No not signed.

 

End topic/

 

How do I say this without flaming... Uhh pretty much the least liked combat discussion I've scene started here. And I've scene like 20 in two days. (at least as it retains to the first post I didn't read the entire thread). Basically what I dont like about your idea is it screws with to many things a ton of raw materials/equipment/etc. prices for one. And your talking about changing how a basic function thats been the same since we've begun runescape. Saying magic is underpowered or not balanced (in that its less good than melee and or range) is hilarious. You can train magic effectiently and profitable with a little luck, patience and skill. I've trained to level 95 magic for example almost exclusively on combat magic with probably 90% of my magic experience coming from metals along, and can honestly say I've probably broken even if I where to guess. And training magic at metals is by far not the most cost effective way of doing so, even training it by combat.

 

What your asking is to make range and magic free/and or much cheaper, so an update to make the game easier. Not interested, never will be and a change like this would impact the game negatively to any 'real' magic user/lover.

I can tell already, you fall into the "afraid of change"/"if I had it rough, everyone else should too!" category of dis-support.

My solution is toward the extreme side on the scale, but to say that there's nothing wrong because you trained exclusively on the same monster for 90% of your Magic training? That's just stupid. I would find it hilarious that you didn't think there was anything wrong if it just wasn't so sad. Maybe you should leave your dungeon once in a while and see the truth.

If balancing things means people can use Magic easier, so be it. Magic should be as easy to apply as melee or Ranged to those "no particular weakness" monsters I mentioned earlier. You shouldn't always have to worry about breaking even. In fact, metals are some of those aforementioned monsters, where you can use Ranged, melee, or Magic. However, melee is helaciously cheaper and quicker, and Ranged is about the same speed but still much cheaper than Magic. Most Slayer monsters fall into this category, actually...

You're nowhere near speaking for "real magic users" as you claim.

[demby123]

 

What your asking is to make range and magic free/and or much cheaper, so an update to make the game easier. Not interested, never will be and a change like this would impact the game negatively to any 'real' magic user/lover.

How will this impact the game negatively for pvm mages? If magic had lower costs, it really wouldn't be any easier than what we have right now.

[Profins]

I was just thinking that with all the "Combat triangle is unbalanced" threads going around, yours just seemed like a suggestion that could've been posted in any other of these threads. And as for your suggestion, what it is, a suggestion, they will never, ever make free spellcasting. Yes, I say free, because apart from the trivial cost of 10k casts or whatever, people will have no trouble getting 200m magic exp just by shooting something that's trapped while wearing enough magic reduction. Have fun with the entire Edgeville ditch full of people throwing their surges at whatever they can.

Right, okay. Suggest something better.

For the record, my suggestion also removed casting XP in favor of 4xp per damage, but I doubt you read that closely anyway before throwing down a criticizing and pointless post.

See, you even agree that it's purely a suggestion.

 

And no, I didn't read your suggestion, I go to suggestion boards when I want to read those.

[Blutters]

I was just thinking that with all the "Combat triangle is unbalanced" threads going around, yours just seemed like a suggestion that could've been posted in any other of these threads. And as for your suggestion, what it is, a suggestion, they will never, ever make free spellcasting. Yes, I say free, because apart from the trivial cost of 10k casts or whatever, people will have no trouble getting 200m magic exp just by shooting something that's trapped while wearing enough magic reduction. Have fun with the entire Edgeville ditch full of people throwing their surges at whatever they can.

Right, okay. Suggest something better.

For the record, my suggestion also removed casting XP in favor of 4xp per damage, but I doubt you read that closely anyway before throwing down a criticizing and pointless post.

See, you even agree that it's purely a suggestion.

 

And no, I didn't read your suggestion, I go to suggestion boards when I want to read those.

Solution, fix, suggestion. You read enough of it to not read enough of it and think you're entitled make some idiotic comment. I said that there are some issues, and how I would fix those issues. This doesn't belong in suggestions or rants because the focus isn't supposed to be purely on my way, but the problems in general, and how others would fix them if given the opportunity. Seriously, just GTFO. You're not being helpful acting like a smartass. The same can go for those who believe that everything is absolutely peachy how it is now. If you don't think there's a problem, why post at all? Just to be defiant and argumentative? This topic clearly doesn't concern you. It's like going up to a group of people who are fans of something, and shouting how much you think that something sucks.

[Profins]

But can you answer why your 'solution/suggestion/fix' is so unique that it required a new thread, rather than post it in an existing one? Just in the first two pages I can find 2 other posts about combat triangles, probably many more in other boards.

[Blutters]

But can you answer why your 'solution/suggestion/fix' is so unique that it required a new thread, rather than post it in an existing one? Just in the first two pages I can find 2 other posts about combat triangles, probably many more in other boards.

Check the dates.

[NukeMarine]

There are three different issues at play here with regards to balance: Cost in Training the skill, Balance of combat between types, Balance of combat between levels.

 

Cost in Training

 

I think that Melee is unbalanced. It's cheap to train melee compared to the other combat styles. Jagex seriously needs to consider adding a fair training cost to melee (food ain't it). Degrading weapons and armor seems the most fair, with no impact on stats till it's 0%. Best way is balance the degradation is compare in cost to a guy that trains with arrows. How much does it cost a guy training with rune arrows from a safe spot compare to a guy training in full rune against an enemy that doesn't damage him fast enough to need food. Compare this for other metal types to get a fair level of degradation.

 

Also, mage is unbalanced as it can be trained with a non-combat spell such as alchemy. Seriously, that's like improving the attack skill because you train attacking a tree and an ore rock. Split magic into two skills - Combat magic or "Mage" and non-combat magic or "Wizard". Not sure how to fairly go about splitting the skill, but I think after an update a player is given the option of how much Magic XP goes to each skill after that it's set.

 

Balance in Combat by Type

 

This can be balanced with an over all philosophy that using gear of other combat styles lowers your bonuses in other styles. Sounds fair to me.

 

Balance in Combat across levels.

 

Here's where Jagex can begin smoothing the triangle. Start at level 10 gear and work it's way up. People with COMBAT LEVELS wearing opposing armor should win on average based on the triangle a certain percentage of the time. Of course, the higher the combat level wearing lower armor will have closer percentages than lower combat levels just by virtue of the armor/weapons having bigger impact.

[Blutters]

Mind if I quote you for that in the first post? That's a terrific summation!

[NukeMarine]

Mind if I quote you for that in the first post? That's a terrific summation!

Go for it. Though I could have described balancing weapons/armor across levels better though.