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Tip.It Times - 8th August 2010


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#21
Ts_Stormrage
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Just one part I do not agree with: "Since these skills (construction in particular) are often gold sinks, Jagex may have unwittingly further prompted the rate of in game inflation, as less gold leaves the land of Gielinor."
Essentially you are right, but it doesn't really matter. Jagex has done a very good job with managing inflation, it is next to no problem anymore(although we should be in a crisis as a certain update flooded the economy with ultra-gazillions of gp, right?). Also, the argument doesn't fit here. Your article is not about the economic situation, and I wonder why everybody feels the need to argue with at least one economic argument, no matter what subject. Your argument here is weak, therefore it puts your other arguments in a rather bad light, I would simply not mention it.


Jagex has done [bleep]all to curb inflation... And the crisis has hit in such a way that we have hit a tipping point that Stormveritas has pointed out very well in this article:

The focus has shifted away from skilling (truly skilling) and unto combat, and the only reason that prices of sharks and what not hasn't exploded is the armies and armies of bots...

He didn't touch on the economic stuff, because thats an upcoming article by yours truly, with a lot more that pretty much says "Welcome to WoWscape"

Of course noncombat skills look pathetic if you consider fishing and woodcutting to be your representation of a noncombat moneymaker. They're terrible profit. When have they ever been good?

I really don't see any problem with the current paradigm. Moneymaking isn't automatically faster or slower just because you do or don't kill things. It's supply and demand. Anyway, I didn't see any mention of the combat moneymakers that aren't super-fast, like killing chickens or hobgoblins or cockatrices. One moneymaker being faster than another moneymaker is not a problem.


When has woodcutting ever been a good moneymaker? I think that was the time when half the population in RS was cutting Yews and and continued to alch the then fletched Longbows...
You say it is supply and demand, and you are right: We demand it and the bots supply it...

One money maker being faster then the other is indeed not a problem... UNLESS you try to prove that the focus shifts away form skilling and unto combat in the entire spectrum of it (which was Storm's point all a long)... And even then, noone cuts oak logs when they can cut yews, same reason why worlds are crowded in the GWD but not at cockatrices... Fail arguments...

But as I said; await with the comments on that until ive written my artice on it (should appear about October)...

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#22
PereGrin
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I can say that because I am not stuck on the idea that "fun" means instant gratification.

You seem to dislike people who spend time doing something that you do not find enjoyable, in order to achieve something that they desire. And yet, when I check your stats, I see a prominent trio of 99s, namly cooking, woodcutting, and fletching. I mean, "Is it really worth it to spend hours of boredom for a pixelated item such as that"?

Also, just because I was not having fun firemaking does not mean that I wallow in a pit of boredom while playing this game. I was not having "fun" (your definition applies here, as best as I can gather) while firemaking, but not enjoying something is more like the normal order of things.

Just because someone is bored/unhappy at some point in time does not automatically lock them into hating their existence for eternity. I do have fun playing Runescape, I have lots of fun in fact. I just do not enjoy firemaking. However, it is a necessary evil in order to further my own enjoyment.

#23
Daavorian
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I agree with PereGrin. I know a lot of people who grind for the reward. And it's disingenuous to say that therefore they should not be playing the game because it's the journey not the reward or some other meaningless platitude. What's fun is the many journeys you get to have after it.
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#24
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I can say that because I am not stuck on the idea that "fun" means instant gratification.

You seem to dislike people who spend time doing something that you do not find enjoyable, in order to achieve something that they desire. And yet, when I check your stats, I see a prominent trio of 99s, namly cooking, woodcutting, and fletching. I mean, "Is it really worth it to spend hours of boredom for a pixelated item such as that"?

Also, just because I was not having fun firemaking does not mean that I wallow in a pit of boredom while playing this game. I was not having "fun" (your definition applies here, as best as I can gather) while firemaking, but not enjoying something is more like the normal order of things.

Just because someone is bored/unhappy at some point in time does not automatically lock them into hating their existence for eternity. I do have fun playing Runescape, I have lots of fun in fact. I just do not enjoy firemaking. However, it is a necessary evil in order to further my own enjoyment.



I think you are looking at the wrong account, I have none of those skills at 99, or even remotely high.

Cooking 190,434 87 4,264,065
Woodcutting 620,504 79 1,854,745
Fletching 392,324 80 1,986,267

I don't dislike those who do things they don't find fun, heck I have done it a few times in the past. You seem to be grasping the wrong end of the stick, I'm not trying to offend people saying it is wrong or they shouldn't play like that, I am simply asking and discussing, is it actually worth it for us to play like that?

Have people lost the ability to have pure fun without item based reward? Are skillcapes really worth it? When training the skill they often seem it, but when you actually obtain them, does it feel like a waste?
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#25
Troacctid
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When has woodcutting ever been a good moneymaker? I think that was the time when half the population in RS was cutting Yews and and continued to alch the then fletched Longbows...
You say it is supply and demand, and you are right: We demand it and the bots supply it...

One money maker being faster then the other is indeed not a problem... UNLESS you try to prove that the focus shifts away form skilling and unto combat in the entire spectrum of it (which was Storm's point all a long)... And even then, noone cuts oak logs when they can cut yews, same reason why worlds are crowded in the GWD but not at cockatrices... Fail arguments...

But as I said; await with the comments on that until ive written my artice on it (should appear about October)...

Yew logs are as high now as they've ever been and they're still only ~110k gp/hr in the best of circumstances. If that was ever a good moneymaker, the alternatives must have been pretty crappy. Woodcutting is terrible for money and has been for as long as I can remember. Same with fishing.

Anyway, what I mean is that "A is a faster moneymaker than B" does not imply "The focus of the game is shifting away from B." Skills are still important. In fact, I would argue skills are now more important than ever with the introduction of dungeoneering to make use of previously-useless skills like smithing, as well as updates like the high-level herblore potions.

Oh, and these combat moneymakers that are so thoroughly trouncing noncombat skills are (with the exception of the frost dragons, which are more of a "dungeoneering" moneymaker anyway) bosses, which should not be equated with "combat" in general. Ordinary combat moneymakers like dragons are still roughly on par with or slower than noncombat skills like hunter, mining, herblore, or runecrafting.

#26
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the second article makes alot of sence to me, and i can also say that I was about to become a drone thinking about going for 99 fishing or agility just because of the cape, but after reading it, im glad i caught the article, ive cant say i hant always done something in runescape that was fun for me, but im glad for the most part it was, i only have 1 99 and its cooking, and to me its quite enjoyable, i still find my self buying sharks just to cook again, and instead of being such a drone that i could've been im going to stick to a couple of the things that i enjoy like cooking (going for rank 10k) and slayer (love the fact that i dont have to kill 1 thing for long periods of time) and who knows mabye 1 day ill find intrest in other things, but for now ik whats fun for me
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#27
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Jagex supports combat more probably because a lot more people do it. I'm not saying people don't skill, they just don't as much. In my opinion, killing a monster with slayer is a lot more entertaining then fishing, or mining, or hunting, or agility...

EDIT: That is one huge quote tree down there...:blink:

#28
PereGrin
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I can say that because I am not stuck on the idea that "fun" means instant gratification.

You seem to dislike people who spend time doing something that you do not find enjoyable, in order to achieve something that they desire. And yet, when I check your stats, I see a prominent trio of 99s, namly cooking, woodcutting, and fletching. I mean, "Is it really worth it to spend hours of boredom for a pixelated item such as that"?

Also, just because I was not having fun firemaking does not mean that I wallow in a pit of boredom while playing this game. I was not having "fun" (your definition applies here, as best as I can gather) while firemaking, but not enjoying something is more like the normal order of things.

Just because someone is bored/unhappy at some point in time does not automatically lock them into hating their existence for eternity. I do have fun playing Runescape, I have lots of fun in fact. I just do not enjoy firemaking. However, it is a necessary evil in order to further my own enjoyment.



I think you are looking at the wrong account, I have none of those skills at 99, or even remotely high.

Cooking 190,434 87 4,264,065
Woodcutting 620,504 79 1,854,745
Fletching 392,324 80 1,986,267

I don't dislike those who do things they don't find fun, heck I have done it a few times in the past. You seem to be grasping the wrong end of the stick, I'm not trying to offend people saying it is wrong or they shouldn't play like that, I am simply asking and discussing, is it actually worth it for us to play like that?

Have people lost the ability to have pure fun without item based reward? Are skillcapes really worth it? When training the skill they often seem it, but when you actually obtain them, does it feel like a waste?


My apologies, I did indeed click on the wrong account name. #-o

And I do not think that people need item based rewards. I mean, I have plenty of fun w/o skill capes. And I happen to love barbarian assault, even though I already have full penance, a full master horn, and all that other cool stuff. I just teach my friends to play, and speed up their games by quite a bit because I am very good at that minigame. I don't play for the rewards anymore, I just dump my healer points into high level gamble, just so I can be rid of them and continue getting more :thumbsup:

My point was that just because people at not having fun now does not mean they have never had fun playing rs. People who play rs do have fun playing it, at some point. Everyone who plays this game will have fun, and has had fun, at some point in their RS career. I think this is what bladewing meant, that no one plays this game who truly does not enjoy anything they do on Runescape.

Everyone who plays this game does have fun at some point. If they are not enjoying the present, it is because they are in preparation to have different and more epic kinds of fun later on. They derive some sort of satisfaction completing things they may not, in and of themselves, be enjoyable.

#29
Ts_Stormrage
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When has woodcutting ever been a good moneymaker? I think that was the time when half the population in RS was cutting Yews and and continued to alch the then fletched Longbows...
You say it is supply and demand, and you are right: We demand it and the bots supply it...

One money maker being faster then the other is indeed not a problem... UNLESS you try to prove that the focus shifts away form skilling and unto combat in the entire spectrum of it (which was Storm's point all a long)... And even then, noone cuts oak logs when they can cut yews, same reason why worlds are crowded in the GWD but not at cockatrices... Fail arguments...

But as I said; await with the comments on that until ive written my artice on it (should appear about October)...

Yew logs are as high now as they've ever been and they're still only ~110k gp/hr in the best of circumstances. If that was ever a good moneymaker, the alternatives must have been pretty crappy. Woodcutting is terrible for money and has been for as long as I can remember. Same with fishing.

Anyway, what I mean is that "A is a faster moneymaker than B" does not imply "The focus of the game is shifting away from B." Skills are still important. In fact, I would argue skills are now more important than ever with the introduction of dungeoneering to make use of previously-useless skills like smithing, as well as updates like the high-level herblore potions.

Oh, and these combat moneymakers that are so thoroughly trouncing noncombat skills are (with the exception of the frost dragons, which are more of a "dungeoneering" moneymaker anyway) bosses, which should not be equated with "combat" in general. Ordinary combat moneymakers like dragons are still roughly on par with or slower than noncombat skills like hunter, mining, herblore, or runecrafting.


Yew Logs, Flax and Nature Runes were once the backbone of the GP influx rate in RuneScape, and I'm guessing this was the case about 3 years ago... Sharks were 1k a piece then, and then bots invaded, bringing it down to 300gp a piece...

Dungeoneering may make skilling more important then before Dungeoneering, but you only need the level... It does not matter to the current argument...
People dont skill anymore to make money AT ALL, they all opt for the faster XP option, and let bots do the gathering...

And its not just bosses... Its lower level monsters too, like Green Dragons (650k per hour), Blue Dragons (400k-500k) Spiritual mages (500k), Aviansies (400k-600k), Dagganoths (500k), Aberant Spectres (500k-1m), and none of these are boss monsters... And this is without any Clues incorporated...

To compare that with an AWESOME and HIGH level (91+) skilling money maker of Double Nature runes: 800k an hour...
Bots keep the prices of Red Chinchompa's low, w84 does the same with Gold Ore, and Herblore only LOSES money... Even if you referred to farming herbs, and add that to other skilling money makers, it does not compare to the better money makers with combat...

Op top of that; for skilling to be a good money maker, you have to have high levels (80+ is a minimum)... For combat money makers? Not neccisarily so ...


So all in all; the writer is EXACTLY implying what you say cant be implied... The focus is shifting from skilling to combat throughout the game, and HE didnt even need the economic proof to make his point... I did it just to add that extra oomph...

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#30
PereGrin
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I don't think I have ever seen someone with sub 80 combat levels actually make huge amounts of money MHing. Unless of course you include green and blue drags, aviansies, and ab specs. And usually people with 83+ slayer have much higher combat levels then 80. At least from all the people I've seen down there.

As for me, I don't really quantify the money earned skilling in a gp/hour ratio. I fail at maxing out my profit per hour skilling, as I usually do it while I do something else. I (and I believe I am not alone in this) usually reckon the money earned while skilling as profit per xp. So if I was going to get 99 fishing, I wouldn't worry about making the max amount per hour, I would do monks to 85, cave fish to 90, and rocktail to 99. Then I would add up all the money I earned getting that much fishing xp. And I would probably do homework and other things the entire time.

So my profit per hour would be low skilling, but while doing other stuff, I may only spend 15 minutes every hour fishing, in total. Just enough to bank and switch fishing spots. And for this, I would gain roughly 75% of the max profit per hour fishing, while only actually spending 25% of the time fishing. This would bring fishing up in profit per hour quite a bit.

#31
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The first article is well-written, but I don't exactly agree. The profit from MHing maxes at around 5M/h (that's with maxed stats, the best gear, overloads, a chaotic weapon, and maybe a divine spirit shield for a few bosses). The profit from skilling hovers a little above 1M/h. There is a perfect balance between the two. Making 5M/h from MHing requires so much more time and money, luck, patience, and there's the ever-present possibility of dying. There's also the intense competition across all worlds.

Skilling provides a relaxed, consistent source of money with no risk and little competition (unless hunting for imps or rune ores). On top of that, the only expensive item that a skiller will ever have to invest in is a dragon pickaxe, which means they need less money than MHers.

However, I do think skilling could do with a way to make a little more money at extremely high levels.

EDIT: Second article is kind of typical and stating the obvious. Expected.

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#32
HeadBandit64
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I don't think I have ever seen someone with sub 80 combat levels actually make huge amounts of money MHing. Unless of course you include green and blue drags, aviansies, and ab specs. And usually people with 83+ slayer have much higher combat levels then 80. At least from all the people I've seen down there.

As for me, I don't really quantify the money earned skilling in a gp/hour ratio. I fail at maxing out my profit per hour skilling, as I usually do it while I do something else. I (and I believe I am not alone in this) usually reckon the money earned while skilling as profit per xp. So if I was going to get 99 fishing, I wouldn't worry about making the max amount per hour, I would do monks to 85, cave fish to 90, and rocktail to 99. Then I would add up all the money I earned getting that much fishing xp. And I would probably do homework and other things the entire time.

So my profit per hour would be low skilling, but while doing other stuff, I may only spend 15 minutes every hour fishing, in total. Just enough to bank and switch fishing spots. And for this, I would gain roughly 75% of the max profit per hour fishing, while only actually spending 25% of the time fishing. This would bring fishing up in profit per hour quite a bit.


Lets think here, I've seen plenty of level 30s making 200K an hour at flesh crawlers which with an equivalent fishing level they wouldn't even come close to that amount. Furthermore, how on earth can you discount green dragons, specters, aviansies and their ilk? Thats probably the biggest part of monster hunting. As for those with high levels, they can do activities such as barrows, gwd, td's and high level slayer monsters that simply just blow skilling out of the water. The point is that in order to make more money than someone your level doing spectres, drags etc they would have to have like 99 hunter and be no-lifing grenwalls or some such. Even then, tds would put them to shame

Now, as for the "afk value of fishing" or whatever that you seem to put in such high regard, Its obvious that giant skeletons or bandits might be more your speed.
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#33
Troacctid
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Yew Logs, Flax and Nature Runes were once the backbone of the GP influx rate in RuneScape, and I'm guessing this was the case about 3 years ago... Sharks were 1k a piece then, and then bots invaded, bringing it down to 300gp a piece...

Doesn't change the fact they're a terrible moneymaker. And sharks are still a weak moneymaker even at 1k each.

And its not just bosses... Its lower level monsters too, like Green Dragons (650k per hour), Blue Dragons (400k-500k) Spiritual mages (500k), Aviansies (400k-600k), Dagganoths (500k), Aberant Spectres (500k-1m), and none of these are boss monsters... And this is without any Clues incorporated...

To compare that with an AWESOME and HIGH level (91+) skilling money maker of Double Nature runes: 800k an hour...
Bots keep the prices of Red Chinchompa's low, w84 does the same with Gold Ore, and Herblore only LOSES money... Even if you referred to farming herbs, and add that to other skilling money makers, it does not compare to the better money makers with combat...

Op top of that; for skilling to be a good money maker, you have to have high levels (80+ is a minimum)... For combat money makers? Not neccisarily so ...

Those figures you're mentioning are all based on testing from high levels, aren't they? At least 70 range for aviansies, 70s in melee for dragons, 83 slayer for spirit mages. Try killing blue dragons with straight 40s in combat stats. In comparison, farming ranarrs only takes level 32, and that's a good 1m+ gp/hr.

For herblore, making unfinished can turn more than 1m gp/hr profit.

#34
vox1st
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Skillers deserve rights too! The stupidest thing they could have done is make effigies combat only. Each skill you do should yield an effigy for that particular skill only. Stupid combat noobs, they are always immature brats too. I only train combat these days for slayer and nothing else.
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#35
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Stupid combat noobs, they are always immature brats too.


As is the tradition: Oh, the hypocrisy. :rolleyes:

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#36
Troacctid
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Yew Logs, Flax and Nature Runes were once the backbone of the GP influx rate in RuneScape, and I'm guessing this was the case about 3 years ago... Sharks were 1k a piece then, and then bots invaded, bringing it down to 300gp a piece...

Doesn't change the fact they're a terrible moneymaker. And sharks are still a weak moneymaker even at 1k each.

And its not just bosses... Its lower level monsters too, like Green Dragons (650k per hour), Blue Dragons (400k-500k) Spiritual mages (500k), Aviansies (400k-600k), Dagganoths (500k), Aberant Spectres (500k-1m), and none of these are boss monsters... And this is without any Clues incorporated...

To compare that with an AWESOME and HIGH level (91+) skilling money maker of Double Nature runes: 800k an hour...
Bots keep the prices of Red Chinchompa's low, w84 does the same with Gold Ore, and Herblore only LOSES money... Even if you referred to farming herbs, and add that to other skilling money makers, it does not compare to the better money makers with combat...

Op top of that; for skilling to be a good money maker, you have to have high levels (80+ is a minimum)... For combat money makers? Not neccisarily so ...

Those figures you're mentioning are all based on testing from high levels, aren't they? At least 70 range for aviansies, 70s in melee for dragons, 83 slayer for spirit mages. Try killing blue dragons with straight 40s in combat stats. In comparison, farming ranarrs only takes level 32, and that's a good 1m+ gp/hr.

For herblore, making unfinished can turn more than 1m gp/hr profit.


To clarify a bit, I don't want anyone to think I'm arguing that noncombat skills are better moneymakers than combat or something like that. That up there is just nitpicking on a few particular examples.

Point is, nothing has really changed here regarding the balance of combat and noncombat. Combat has always been central to the game, being a core premise of the genre and all. Combat levels have been displayed above characters since RSC, maybe even since DeviousMUD. Storm talks about players being "steered away" from noncombat skills, but this implies that they were being "steered" more towards them at some point in the past, which just isn't true. It's like people who complain that Christmas is just a commercial holiday nowadays. Well, yeah, it is, but that sort of tone implies that there was some point in the past where it wasn't.

It isn't as if noncombat skills are being ignored. We've gotten all sorts of updates that aren't just about killing things. Shattered Heart is a prime example. Plus dragon pickaxes, the impling update, those updates to agility, and so on. And those are just the updates geared specifically toward them--you can see consideration of noncombat skills popping up all over the place. Check out the rewards at Fist of Guthix or Stealing Creation. Notice how court summons can be gained from pickpocketing. Etc.

#37
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"A lyric that comes to mind as sung by Tim McIlrath is 'The drones they slave away, they’re working overtime, they serve a faceless queen, and never question why'."

Drones by Rise Against, right? Thanks for that reference :thumbup:

#38
strilmus
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strilmus

    Moss Giant Whipper

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Actually, Fist of Guthix is a combat minigame. Same in Stealing Creation if you're playing the game the way they "intended". (So, for instance, a pure skiller will usually get blown up by that guy with the ancients. Those WC levels aren't going to stop the ice barrage spawncamping.)

Oh, but I guess you're right about the dragon pick since that's gained by skilling.

WAIT NEVER MIND HA HA JOKES ON US

Meanwhile, every force conspires to devalue every type of skilling drop, while every force also conspires to make the best drops from combat very, very exclusive.

Hm I guess skilling wins over combat right

8f14270694.jpg


#39
Troacctid
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Troacctid

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Actually, Fist of Guthix is a combat minigame. Same in Stealing Creation if you're playing the game the way they "intended". (So, for instance, a pure skiller will usually get blown up by that guy with the ancients. Those WC levels aren't going to stop the ice barrage spawncamping.)

Oh, but I guess you're right about the dragon pick since that's gained by skilling.

WAIT NEVER MIND HA HA JOKES ON US

Meanwhile, every force conspires to devalue every type of skilling drop, while every force also conspires to make the best drops from combat very, very exclusive.

Hm I guess skilling wins over combat right

^ Missing the point.

#40
strilmus
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strilmus

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At some point you may almost think that every single benefit from skilling (or training skilling directly through skilling methods) is much more easily obtained as a direct result of combat, but then that would be kind of depressing and we stop thinking.

8f14270694.jpg





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