Mosque at Ground Zero

[Alg]

http://barenakedislam.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/6a0111685b4b71970c01287767127c970c-800wi.jpg?w=460&h=262

http://images53.fotki.com/v1610/photos/5/1222605/8469023/islam_will_dominate1-vi.jpg

 

See you guys were seriously wrong, shoulda listened to saru..

http://www.bleedingcool.com/wp-content/uploads//2010/07/westboro.jpg

 

back to square 1.

Perhaps set both groups on an island somewhere and take bets on which side wins?

My money's on the Muslims.

 

In all seriousness, looking at that kind of insanity as an individual thing is the right way to go. Most Christians wish the WBC would stop making them look bad, I'd assume many Muslims feel the same way about the ones that go terrorist. Looking at extremists from any group as the whole puts you at about the same level.

 

Also, the "behead those who say Islam is violent" one is probably staged. Trolls in real life and all that.

[Low C]

Yeah I just figured it would give you guys a laugh.

[Harakiri]

I loled

 

I lol'ed as well.

Proving that we are just like the radical Muslims...whether we admit it or not.

[anim7]

Staying strictly on topic from an indian viewpoint (Remember: Indians and Muslims don't really get along. If you need a history refresher...wikipedia it)

 

A few points:

 

The cultural community center is not at Ground Zero. It is 2 blocks away. A 2 block radius from there is actually a decent distance, because it is in the heart of NYC and there's so much stuff(stores, buildings, etc) between Ground Zero and the proposed location. I actually worked a block from G0 this summer and it is a considerable distance.

 

The guys who are building it are doing it legally and have purchased the property and will comply with local and state building codes.

 

They have freedom of religion. This has been debated a lot in this thread and I am sure everyone agrees that they have the "right" to build it.

 

Those who are against it, are arguing the following:

Sake of the 9/11 families

Sources of funding

Islam = terrorist, Mosque = Islam => spawns terrorists

 

First, the 9/11 families are not some unique and special group that deserve special treatment. It has been 9 years. Get over it. Millions of people around the world mourn the wrongful deaths of their loved ones. Shyat happens. I personally have friends destroyed by people of that religion, yet I sit here arguing for them. There is a limit to everything. The 9/11 families need to wake up and sense that the mosque people are not the same guys on 9/11. They are of the same religion. Only thing is, there are a handful of people who hijack that religion to do terrible things. If you travel the world, you will come to realize that what you see in American media is not the same as what you see before your eyes.

 

Second, the middle east funds many mosques outside the region. Why? It promotes their religion. Who doesnt like that? After all, that's what all religions do right? To gather followers. Just because it comes from middle east, does not automatically equal terrorism.

 

Third, and this one is probably why most people disapprove. They dont perceive this religion as what it is and what it means to billions to followers around the world. A vast majority of them are peaceful people who by generational inheritance have believed in that religion for thousand of years. It is just that a vast majority of news regarding the religion is negative and misrepresents them. From my knowledge of the civil rights movement of the US, it appalls me that we can be so backward. What if there is a large group of blacks that get transfered to your school district? Would people oppose that because it would lower the standardized test scores for that district and thus result in less grants for that school district? No, that would be racism. There is a high chance that test scores would lower, but not many would oppose it. This is kinda the same issue. When you judge an entire group by the actions of a few, you end up in the same scenario.

 

Those who say, they should just build it elsewhere...How is that going to happen? They already bought the land. It was dirt cheap real estate. The way I see it, no one purposely said "Yo guys, lets build this mosque near ground zero and piss off a bunch of people.haha." They probably looked for land around manhattan and saw this to be the cheapest/best bang for the buck.

[Zierro]

This scenario is more or less the opposite of logical and rational: a knee-jerk emotional reaction with no basis in logic, reason, or fact.

 

To make generalizations is to use logic. Seeing a group of people perpetuate the same behavior and then expecting it to happen again is using a logical thought process. How else would we gather empirical evidence?

 

There's a possibility that tomorrow we will be invaded by aliens (lizardmen from Jupiter). There's a possibility that we don't exist and are just in some one else's dream. There's a possibility that next week I will learn to fly and you will learn to teleport. Need I go on? There's always a possibility for everything.

 

Yeah, keep thinking of the most ridiculous possible examples. Now let me try - there's a possibility it will rain tomorrow. Isn't it just so convenient to relate the thing we're discussing to extremely uncommon or extremely common scenarios to make our arguments look better?

 

Usually with this type of thing, we look at evidence.

 

Evidence shows us that living on Jupiter is highly unlikely. Evidence shows us that flying and teleporting are more likely well beyond a human's capabilities. Evidence shows us that religions have been known to use violent/sly/extreme/unethical tactics to combat opposing religions. Now tell me what's more likely.

[Dupin]

This scenario is more or less the opposite of logical and rational: a knee-jerk emotional reaction with no basis in logic, reason, or fact.

 

To make generalizations is to use logic. Seeing a group of people perpetuate the same behavior and then expecting it to happen again is using a logical thought process. How else would we gather empirical evidence?

 

There's a possibility that tomorrow we will be invaded by aliens (lizardmen from Jupiter). There's a possibility that we don't exist and are just in some one else's dream. There's a possibility that next week I will learn to fly and you will learn to teleport. Need I go on? There's always a possibility for everything.

 

Yeah, keep thinking of the most ridiculous possible examples. Now let me try - there's a possibility it will rain tomorrow. Isn't it just so convenient to relate the thing we're discussing to extremely uncommon or extremely common scenarios to make our arguments look better?

 

Usually with this type of thing, we look at evidence.

 

Evidence shows us that living on Jupiter is highly unlikely. Evidence shows us that flying and teleporting are more likely well beyond a human's capabilities. Evidence shows us that religions have been known to use violent/sly/extreme/unethical tactics to combat opposing religions. Now tell me what's more likely.

 

Actually, the Lizardmen are either from Sirius or descended from the dinosaurs, depending who you ask.

 

Evidence has shown us that Americans are likely to blow civilian crap up in the Middle East. Does that mean all Americans are likely to blow stuff up? Does it mean a majority are likely to blow stuff up? Let's try to avoid these silly generalizations.

[Zierro]

I never said all Muslims or even the majority of Muslims are terrorists. I'm just saying that it's stupid to equate terrorism to lizard spacemen and all those extreme examples, because based on evidence, it's FAR more likely/plausible.

[paul191600]

Wait, Muslims are lizardmen from Sirius? I am confus.

[lordkafei]

Looks more and more likely that the mosque will never be built.

 

The white flag hasnt reached the top of the flagpole yet, but Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf all but surrendered on Monday morning in his battle to build a Muslim interfaith community center with a prayer room two blocks from Ground Zero. At an unusual meeting Monday morning at the Council on Foreign Relations in midtown Manhattan, Rauf said that he wanted to find a solution to the furious imbroglio over the planned center, which opponents say is inappropriate, insensitive to the memory of those who died in the 9/11 attacks, and likely to inflame tensions rather than build bridges between Muslims and non-Muslims. Saying that his advisors were looking at every option, including a suggestion that the project be delayed until it could win greater support and become less divisive, the imam pledged to do whats best for all.

 

Everything is on the table, he told the more than 300 members of the group, which rarely holds on-the-record meetings and normally focuses on foreign affairs and national security rather than domestic or urban issues. In fact, the imam this morning was acknowledging the obvious: the project has been on de facto hold for weeks because of the numerous obstacles it now facesfirst and foremost, a lack of funding.

 

In the words of Jerry Maguire: Show me the money! said Fouad Ajami, a professor at Johns Hopkins, as he emerged from the hour-long question-and-answer session with the imam. Ajami, a Lebanese-born Shiite Muslim and staunch defender of the war in Iraq, predicted that supporters of the project would be unable to find sufficient funds to build the ambitious $100 million center, which is said to include a gymnasium with swimming pool, a prayer room, classrooms for cultural lectures, and space for interfaith dialogues. Saudi Arabia and other traditional financiers of such mosques and Islamic centers would not underwrite such a controversial project, Ajami said. And public pressure has forced Rauf to rule out raising funds from foreign governments or such militant sources as Iranian foundations or Palestinian Hamas.

 

...

 

 

 

Full story here.

[Faux]

^ lol. all that panic and for nothing.

[Zierro]

^ lol. all that panic and for nothing.

 

For nothing? Because of that panic, they decided not to fund it.

 

Oh, I just remember reading about a similar thing happening in Hamburg or somewhere. There is (or was now) a Muslim community center there that secretly was a base for terrorists in Germany. The German government bugged it for like 9 years and got a ton of information from active terrorists before they came in and shut em down.

 

The historical reason for questioning the motive is in Muslim history; after conquering a city they'd first build a mosque on their newly conquered land. I think that's part of why this is so sensitive an issue, even if Islam itself is not a problem. I'm not saying that this is some kind of victory building, just that a lot of the people who live near their and lost love ones might. People aren't really legally against it from the data I've seen, just having it 2 blocks away is a little close for comfort.

 

Rebel Dragon, you are a liar, bigot, strawman head! There is absolutely no reason to believe terrorism has any relevance to Islam, and to imply so is bigotry. Not only that, but you have yet to post any links, therefore you are a liar (and probably a thief too). Being suspicious that religious groups might do something bad is just like being suspicious that my grandma is a flying monkey neuron buttcheek from Mongolia. :^o

 

Why must your world be composed of such extremes? Why can't someone be only slightly against what you believe? You'll quote this post defending yourself saying that you do agree with people who are only slightly opposed; but that all of us here are just not those kind of people. To say the world is a world of extremes, and it's either your way or the exact opposite is in my opinion not the brightest ideology in the power plant of your brain. You'll say that you get along perfectly fine with conservatives, but you don't mean that,(or you may post trying to catch me off guard admitting you hate all conservatives, only you know.) you hate everyone who is unlike yourself, then masquerade it amongst a facade of forced open mindedness. That you're intolerant of intolerance, but we all know that you're just intolerant of things that you don't believe in. If you were born to a different family you may just be the homophobic racist rednecks you hate so much, and I'm not saying, nor implying you're deep down a bad person or anything. But you're the person who is simply unwilling to change their ways, and that is just as unhealthy and detrimental to society as homophobic racists. And this whole spiel (to put it lightly) that you are the crusader of intelligence, and as ALG posted, unashamed hypocrisy is just ludicrous. It can only go so far Magekillr, I may be making jokes and sarcasm and "trolling" in the vast majority of posts, but at least I know common sense when I see it.

 

Didn't you get upset at me for bringing up the same exact point to him? Or was it my calling him a political troll that got to you?

[i_trollz_u]

http://www.theonion.com/articles/man-already-knows-everything-he-needs-to-know-abou,17990/

 

SALINA, KSLocal man Scott Gentries told reporters Wednesday that his deliberately limited grasp of Islamic history and culture was still more than sufficient to shape his views of the entire Muslim world.

 

Gentries, 48, said he had absolutely no interest in exposing himself to further knowledge of Islamic civilization or putting his sweeping opinions into a broader context of any kind, and confirmed he was "perfectly happy" to make a handful of emotionally charged words the basis of his mistrust toward all members of the world's second-largest religion.

 

"I learned all that really matters about the Muslim faith on 9/11," Gentries said in reference to the terrorist attacks on the United States undertaken by 19 of Islam's approximately 1.6 billion practitioners. "What more do I need to know to stigmatize Muslims everywhere as inherently violent radicals?"

 

"And now they want to build a mosque at Ground Zero," continued Gentries, eliminating any distinction between the 9/11 hijackers and Muslims in general. "No, I won't examine the accuracy of that statement, but yes, I will allow myself to be outraged by it and use it as evidence of these people's universal callousness toward Americans who lost loved ones when the Twin Towers fell."

 

"Even though I am not one of those people," he added.

 

When told that the proposed "Ground Zero mosque" is actually a community center two blocks north of the site that would include, in addition to a public prayer space, a 500-seat auditorium, a restaurant, and athletic facilities, Gentries shook his head and said, "I know all I'm going to let myself know."

 

Gentries explained that it "didn't take long" to find out as much about the tenets of Islam as he needed to. He said he knew Muslims stoned their women for committing adultery, trained for terrorist attacks at fundamentalist madrassas, and believed in jihad, which Gentries described as the thing they used to justify killing infidels.

 

"All Muslims are at war with America, and I will resist any attempt to challenge that assertion with potentially illuminating facts," said Gentries, who threatened to leave the room if presented with the number of Muslims who live peacefully in the United States, serve in the country's armed forces, or were victims themselves of the 9/11 attacks. "Period."

 

"If you don't believe me, wait until they put your wife in a burka," Gentries continued in reference to the face-and-body-covering worn by a small minority of Muslim women and banned in the universities of Turkey, Tunisia, and Syria. "Or worse, a rape camp. That's right: For reasons I am content being totally unable to articulate, I am choosing to associate Muslims with rape camps."

 

Over the past decade, Gentries said he has taken pains to avoid personal interactions or media that might have the potential to compromise his point of view. He told reporters that the closest he had come to confronting a contrary standpoint was tuning in to the first few seconds of an interview with a moderate Muslim cleric before hastily turning off the television.

 

"I almost gave in and listened to that guy defend Islam with words I didn't want to hear," Gentries said. "But then I remembered how much easier it is to live in a world of black-and-white in which I can assign the label of 'other' to someone and use him as a vessel for all my fears and insecurities."

 

Added Gentries, "That really put things back into perspective."

[Skeptical]

They should be allowed to, unless of course, we stop building churches on the sites of Christian terrorist attacks.