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Should Endgame Quests Require Awesome Levels?


Louisc111

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Hello All,

 

Whilst anticipating an upcoming fantasy novel I thought about what the characters in that novel were like, what "level" they might be in a Runescape context, what skills they might have have and how their "endgame" might translate here. Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that Runescape will last a finite amount of time, let's say 10 years from this point, after which no new content will be added. Whether or not the servers will close and the game will end is a moot point here (it might extend the discussion but I hope it's not the crux of the matter).

 

Access to top content in the game is done in a variety of ways, quests are only one part of that. People with awesome levels (by which I mean all skills are 99 plus 120 dung) have access to high level content from a variety of sources (not enough, they need more, but that's a seperate matter).

 

In fantasy novels the heros/heroines are not always uber powerful near godlike creatures (although they often are), and frequently they don't start that way. Often luck, circumstances, help etc play a greater role than individual awesomeness, and then they are usually only awesome in a narrow area.

 

Ok, given those things I was thinking that it wasn't absolutely necessary for the final uberquest of Runescape to require all 99s and 120 dung etc. In fact I think it's a bad idea because I think it misses what draws so many people to the fantasy roleplaying game genre, i.e. the adventure/plot/roleplaying element of it all. Runescape is a cracking roleplaying game (that's what the RPG part of MMORPG stands for folks!) because it allows such freedom. There are people who "crack" quests at comparatively low skill levels, for example the people who slew Nomad at terrifyingly low combat levels. People work out ways to kill Jad with a rubber chicken, take on the Corporeal Beast with a banana (ok that one I made up) and a variety of things. I think the ultimate end of runescape quest series should be similarly open.

 

Obviously it should have high requirements, but the time investment of all 99s + 120 dung is enormous. Even all 90+ would be an enormous task to achieve and that's less than halfway up the xp grind. I think it's more fitting, and more pleasurable, to have high requirements (90+ in multiple skills) coupled to a few 99 requirements, a few minigame/activity/quest acheivements a certain amount of money etc. Something to really show the player has PLAYED the game. Merely requiring the maximum in all skills is pretty dull. Less game, more grind.

 

Don't get me wrong, I've got no particular beef with grind, nor so I think all things should be easy to access, I just think that making an integral story part in a game/RPG extremely difficult to access is counter productive. Hard yes, something only a dedicated person with multiple spare years on their hands can acheive....no.

 

What do you folks think?

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All skills 70+ again 16/06/2010

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Well I think that quests should be difficult, but not by demanding the player have 13m xp in a skill. More quests like nomad (easy if you are high stats, but still possible with low stats) would be in order IMO.

 

The notion of "all quests should be easy" was not invented until people got the quest cape and thenceforth felt entitled to be able to do any quest easily.

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Interesting topic.

 

I would like to see some of the "endgame" quests have at least a couple 90+ requirements, but definitely not 99 or anywhere near. That just seems a bit silly. But, like Bladewing said, quests like Nomad's Requiem are great because the challenge is in the quest, not the requirements (though I'd love to see a quest boss that could give a 138 a run for his money). Ultimately, the endgame quests in Runescape should be EPIC in both requirements and difficulty. I don't think grandmaster should be the highest "difficulty" level of quests, in other words. I'll be kind of disappointed if the final Mahjarrat quest isn't 10 times as huge as WGS.

 

As an aside, I think it's interesting that the dungeoneering skill is actually the BIGGEST and most EPIC quest in Runescape, just in skill form.

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The good thing about how Jagex do quests is that most story-lines start off with a simple low level quest and then each sequel is increasingly complex requiring deeper thought and more advance skills. ME2 is considered by many to be a pretty complicated quest but that all started with Plague City, a very easy quest. Nomad's Requiem and While Guthix Sleeps all required the player to do multiple other quests from easy to difficult.

 

My point is for an Uberquest, they're not going to just throw it out there, there would be a long complex story-line which would probably pull together some plot-lines and the skills would be progressive from its predecessors. There's gonna be quests with more 70+ requirements before we see 80+ and only then will will likely see a 90+ requirement if ever.

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Just because you're maxed stats doesn't mean you can't be the underdog in a fight. A mahjarrat of only moderate power will still be much, much stronger than the strongest human, for example. And look at all those hoops you have to jump through just to get the Spirit Beast in a state where it's even possible to fight it. *shrug*

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I think that we need to make it clear that if Jagex wants to put in quests with higher requirements than we have now, they must first make sure that the effort to get to those levels must be engaging and enjoyable. I do not want to have to grind to get to a quest. I want the time I spend to get to, say, level 85 hunter to be nearly as fun as the time I spend completing the quest that requires it. If it isn't, it should either be removed from the requirements, or new content should be released for hunter first.

 

 

If people want to get level 99 or 120 in a skill, that's fine with me, but don't make the cape that's all about getting the most out of the game involve gut-wrenchily boring training sessions for days on end.

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I think that we need to make it clear that if Jagex wants to put in quests with higher requirements than we have now, they must first make sure that the effort to get to those levels must be engaging and enjoyable. I do not want to have to grind to get to a quest. I want the time I spend to get to, say, level 85 hunter to be nearly as fun as the time I spend completing the quest that requires it. If it isn't, it should either be removed from the requirements, or new content should be released for hunter first.

 

 

If people want to get level 99 or 120 in a skill, that's fine with me, but don't make the cape that's all about getting the most out of the game involve gut-wrenchily boring training sessions for days on end.

 

This is a good point, and I think Jagex is actually taking steps to make skilling faster, as well tying skilling in with quests (effigies). And speaking of effigies, I'm very curious as to how they'll fit into the Dragonkin storyline.

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I think that we need to make it clear that if Jagex wants to put in quests with higher requirements than we have now, they must first make sure that the effort to get to those levels must be engaging and enjoyable. I do not want to have to grind to get to a quest. I want the time I spend to get to, say, level 85 hunter to be nearly as fun as the time I spend completing the quest that requires it. If it isn't, it should either be removed from the requirements, or new content should be released for hunter first.

Or, there should already be a quest that requires a similar, slightly-lower level. For example, WGS required 75 magic before Love Story came out and required 77 magic. A later quest might reasonably require level 80.

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Best solution is to have the hardest quests have medium requirements but with extra content that isnt necessary to complete the quest that require 90+ requirements.

 

The rewards can simply be xp. That way the quest rewards are nice and low 10kish while someone who has managed to complete something that requires a 90+ skill gets something like 30k reward xp in it. Because getting 10k in a skill when its already many millions is semi-pointless. It just makes it more fair imo.

 

I am being quite brief but thats the general idea.

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Interesting topic.

 

I would like to see some of the "endgame" quests have at least a couple 90+ requirements, but definitely not 99 or anywhere near. That just seems a bit silly. But, like Bladewing said, quests like Nomad's Requiem are great because the challenge is in the quest, not the requirements (though I'd love to see a quest boss that could give a 138 a run for his money). Ultimately, the endgame quests in Runescape should be EPIC in both requirements and difficulty. I don't think grandmaster should be the highest "difficulty" level of quests, in other words. I'll be kind of disappointed if the final Mahjarrat quest isn't 10 times as huge as WGS.

 

As an aside, I think it's interesting that the dungeoneering skill is actually the BIGGEST and most EPIC quest in Runescape, just in skill form.

 

In my opinion Nomad's Requiem was one of the worst quests. There was a total lack of storyline. It seemed like Jagex just said "Hey lets just put a bunch of hard, annoying puzzles and bosses together and we'll have a quest!" I can't enjoy a challenge if there is no plot. All I knew before the fight was that nomad is evil. A little background would have been nice.

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By popular demand, this signature is back- however I currently do not have a blog up at the moment and if I did I wouldn't update it. Sorry, the sig links to nowhere :( .

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in my opinion, most of the posters here just want to play all the game content without the necessary prerequisites for that to be reasonable. think of game logics, not just yourself here for a minute:

 

 

i need level 85 hunter and 80 agility to catch a butterfly with my bare hands. How can you then be an epic quester with stats that are any lower?

 

As a casual gamer over many years myself, I can't help but notice that all skills lower than level 50, and all quest niches (other than dungeoneering, which is new) for these levels are filled. most skills are now close to 70, for the quest cape.

 

Also as a casual gamer over many years, i notice that all players playing the game to meet the quest cape requirements from new high quests, can reacquire their cape very rapidly after a new quest is released.

 

With the first "endgame skill" being released, and no quest requiring a level higher than 77 magic, i can't help but think to myself that jagex need to release at least one high level quest instead of the ludicrous process of slight increase after slight increase (while still releasing pointless low level quests, an area of the game that is already over-filled). At the current pace, there will never be an "elite quest".

 

Jagex think a lot about their lower-end players (hey 92 is only half-way). The upper half of the game, after level 92, is all but empty. requirements in the high 80s have been ripe for a couple of years already.

 

why not skip to a lvl 90 mining / construction / smithing quest in the dwarven quest series? Dwarfs are supposed to be inherently superior to humans in these respects, so game logic demands high human stats to be of any aid to the dwarfs at all. Elves? easily 90+ agility to compare to their grace and self-control.

 

Viking quests: good navigators, born fishermen and berserkers. why not 90 fishing and 90 strength to rid the north of future troubles?

 

void knights: the void knights need champions, leaders and heroes. 120 combat doesn't sound unreasonable, with summoning and all.

 

 

two high level quests per one non-high level quest sounds reasonable, the upper half of the game has 0 quest points, the lower half has 308 and counting. That's quite a gap to close.

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As an aside, I think it's interesting that the dungeoneering skill is actually the BIGGEST and most EPIC quest in Runescape, just in skill form.

I missed this first time I posted but really, if you think Dungeoneering = questing, you missed the whole point of questing really...

 

In my opinion Nomad's Requiem was one of the worst quests. There was a total lack of storyline. It seemed like Jagex just said "Hey lets just put a bunch of hard, annoying puzzles and bosses together and we'll have a quest!" I can't enjoy a challenge if there is no plot. All I knew before the fight was that nomad is evil. A little background would have been nice.

 

Exactly. Quests require a plot. Puzzles should be there only when they got in the way with storyline purposes, such as the puzzle in MEP2 being there because the Temple of Light is supposed to be very hard to turn on and off for security reasons. When it's a bunch of puzzles gathered together with a super hard boss as the cherry on the top of the cake, it's not really a quest anymore.

 

See, Nomad's Requiem should have been at least as long as While Guthix Sleeps. It shouldn't have been just a little introduction quest to the new plot when it has the toughest quest boss in game.

 

i need level 85 hunter and 80 agility to catch a butterfly with my bare hands. How can you then be an epic quester with stats that are any lower?

 

Because quests are about solving plots, saving damsels in distress, stoping Lucien from destroying Runescape and such, not about catching a butterfly or a monkfish. You can catch a butterfly, great you're better than me at it. But still, you can catch as many butterflies as you want, it won't make you a better quester than one who is skilled at questing... that's like if you trained at cooking food in real life to later know how to fly an F15 bomber lol. Questing and skilling are two different activities for a reason.

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I missed this first time I posted but really, if you think Dungeoneering = questing, you missed the whole point of questing really...

 

You've clearly never even touched dungeoneering, as the entire skill is in itself a MASSIVE quest. What is the "point" of questing, exactly? I was under the impression that it was to uncover the lore of Runescape while applying our acquired skills in ways that integrate our characters into the various storylines of the game.

 

You're literally [developmentally delayed]ed if you think Dungeoneering is just a skill.

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Dungeoneering is pretty much a Minigame with a tacked on Experience method.

 

Questing is about solving plots, investigate new lands, find new enemies, get a lifelong gratitude from X tribe, save Y city and physicly evolve the Land of Gielinor. Dungeoneering is an activity way too closed off, with th only way to affect the outside world being a couple of dungeons that could be introduced in a variety of other ways and buying rewards in a similar manner to Pest Control, a minigame.

 

That said and going On topic, I think the highest level a quest should require is around 92, and maybe it's even pushing it. I do agree with their strategy to slowly push forward the requirements of quests instead of major bumps out of No where.

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I missed this first time I posted but really, if you think Dungeoneering = questing, you missed the whole point of questing really...

 

You've clearly never even touched dungeoneering, as the entire skill is in itself a MASSIVE quest. What is the "point" of questing, exactly? I was under the impression that it was to uncover the lore of Runescape while applying our acquired skills in ways that integrate our characters into the various storylines of the game.

 

You're literally [developmentally delayed]ed if you think Dungeoneering is just a skill.

 

 

dungeoneering is just a skill with a bit of story sprinkled on top. it is not even close to being a quest honestly.

 

 

 

I can agree with quest reqs in the low 90's someday but honestly beyond that would be /really/ pushing it.

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Questcape first achieved: Sept 20, 2009
99 agility march 11th 2010

99 Magic - some point in 2012

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I missed this first time I posted but really, if you think Dungeoneering = questing, you missed the whole point of questing really...

 

You've clearly never even touched dungeoneering, as the entire skill is in itself a MASSIVE quest. What is the "point" of questing, exactly? I was under the impression that it was to uncover the lore of Runescape while applying our acquired skills in ways that integrate our characters into the various storylines of the game.

Yeah, a small solo C6 dungeon is a lot more like a quest than a lot of quests are. There's a maze with monsters, puzzles, skill-related obstacles, a boss at the end, and you're rewarded with a page of lore. Compare with, say, Doric's Quest.

 

Yeah.

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i need level 85 hunter and 80 agility to catch a butterfly with my bare hands. How can you then be an epic quester with stats that are any lower?

 

Because quests are about solving plots, saving damsels in distress, stoping Lucien from destroying Runescape and such, not about catching a butterfly or a monkfish. You can catch a butterfly, great you're better than me at it. But still, you can catch as many butterflies as you want, it won't make you a better quester than one who is skilled at questing... that's like if you trained at cooking food in real life to later know how to fly an F15 bomber lol. Questing and skilling are two different activities for a reason.

 

I'll break it own for you then:

 

solving pots: quest unique, no relevant skill, experience (quantified by exp) relevant

saving damsels in distress: requires skills for saving i.e. combat, or abilities, i.e. skill puzzles.

stopping Lucien from destroying runescape: huge combat requirement, all brain and no brawn = dead quester. you're talking about beating a God here, you'd better be good at surviving (hp, defence, agility etc. etc.)

 

yes, skill requirements for quests need to be relevant. If i were to catch a mosquito with chopsticks (or any other trivial "small favour" npc's require of us in quests) it'd be an advantage if i knew how to catch a butterfly, would it not? I'd need to be even more agile, and even better at hunting. oh look! we have two skills that match those prerequisites: hunter and agility!

 

let's say i were to repair a cavern (not in the brimhaven volcano or anything), wouldn't it be an advantage to be able to repair things, and clear rubble safely? oh look! mining and construction!

 

I don't need to catch a butterfly to fly a plane, but to build myself a scuba kit in the medieval times i'd need to be either proficient at magic, OR i would need to be sincerely good at crafting and engineering (oh look! crafting and construction!).

 

you need skills to perform tasks in quests. otherwise you're just an obsolete administrator, not an adventurer (see the kingdom portion of the fremennik quest series, or "one small favour" and to see how boring and pointless that would be.

 

you can't argue for why quests shouldn't require levels involving correct use of logic and reason. your argument is emotive because you want to play all quests.

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I missed this first time I posted but really, if you think Dungeoneering = questing, you missed the whole point of questing really...

 

You've clearly never even touched dungeoneering, as the entire skill is in itself a MASSIVE quest. What is the "point" of questing, exactly? I was under the impression that it was to uncover the lore of Runescape while applying our acquired skills in ways that integrate our characters into the various storylines of the game.

 

You're literally [developmentally delayed]ed if you think Dungeoneering is just a skill.

Questing has nothing to do with your skills. During quests you don't use skills because you have to prove yourself, you use skills because things get in your way and you're either skilled enough to get past them or not. Questing is about living an adventure, contribute to the story of Gielinor and even changing the course of history, not about proving how good you are at x or y skills.

 

You don't get to do any of that in Dungeoneering. You're just getting past rooms until you reach a final room where you defeat the boss, then repeat over and over again the same process. In the long run, it's grinding, what makes it just another skill. There is no plot involved, no addition to the story of the game. When it's said Dungeoneering adds up to Runescape, it's the area itself and its history that add up, something that has been there before you even trained the skill, not your actions inside the dungeon. During quests, it's your actions that make the difference, and that fact alone makes the two things very distant. It doesn't take a genious to understand that.

 

 

I'll break it own for you then:

 

solving pots: quest unique, no relevant skill, experience (quantified by exp) relevant

saving damsels in distress: requires skills for saving i.e. combat, or abilities, i.e. skill puzzles.

stopping Lucien from destroying runescape: huge combat requirement, all brain and no brawn = dead quester. you're talking about beating a God here, you'd better be good at surviving (hp, defence, agility etc. etc.)

 

yes, skill requirements for quests need to be relevant. If i were to catch a mosquito with chopsticks (or any other trivial "small favour" npc's require of us in quests) it'd be an advantage if i knew how to catch a butterfly, would it not? I'd need to be even more agile, and even better at hunting. oh look! we have two skills that match those prerequisites: hunter and agility!

 

let's say i were to repair a cavern (not in the brimhaven volcano or anything), wouldn't it be an advantage to be able to repair things, and clear rubble safely? oh look! mining and construction!

 

I don't need to catch a butterfly to fly a plane, but to build myself a scuba kit in the medieval times i'd need to be either proficient at magic, OR i would need to be sincerely good at crafting and engineering (oh look! crafting and construction!).

 

you need skills to perform tasks in quests. otherwise you're just an obsolete administrator, not an adventurer (see the kingdom portion of the fremennik quest series, or "one small favour" and to see how boring and pointless that would be.

 

you can't argue for why quests shouldn't require levels involving correct use of logic and reason. your argument is emotive because you want to play all quests.

 

It's obvious quests and skills are linked, duh. There's always a link because it's in the same game. Doesn't mean questing comes down to proving your skills.

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I think that the endgame quests should require some high level skills, but mainly in combat. I like to quest and do combat to have fun in the game, not grind skills. To me it would take away the point of questing if you needed 90+ skills to start one.

  
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It's obvious quests and skills are linked, duh. There's always a link because it's in the same game. Doesn't mean questing comes down to proving your skills.

 

All quests in runescape are "helping quests" where you do something for someone and get a reward. what can you do for them? "small favors" , puzzles and use your skills to aid where required.

 

i'd say that boils down to quests, coming down in significant part, to using your skills to further your adventures.

 

 

 

I think that the endgame quests should require some high level skills, but mainly in combat. I like to quest and do combat to have fun in the game, not grind skills. To me it would take away the point of questing if you needed 90+ skills to start one.

 

why is combat any different from other skills? is it because you like training combat? I happen to enjoy training runecrafting, and almost every skill in the game. what i don't like are the, to me, pointless quests with measly plot development, "requirements" that all npc's basically fulfill, giving no reward.

 

I'm going to have to grind through the last 4-5 quests released soon, there's been no incentive to do any of them, but i'll probably have to grind through them sometime, as a requirement for quests that actually develop the game.

 

you say tomato, i say tomato [oral expression doesn't translate well onto forums]

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they should require high skill as skills are getting easier maybe 75 magic 2 years ago when wgs came out was considered high but now thiers at least 750 people with access to the max forums

 

tbh i dont think 120 dg shuld really play a part i this o.o that is the endgame skill so tbh someone that has reached all 99s has reached the end game and dg is only way to lvl

 

yeh the quest cape does make people feel entitled to wanna do all quest

 

i havent done love story or the 2 void quest but i did get a quest cape once and alot of people would feel upset if they came out with uberhigh requirements at this tim like 90+ farm or 90+ construction but they shuld step up the requirments gradually like they said.

 

next quest requires 69 agil then the next 74 agil then the next 78 agil and then 82 agil people will have the skil at the lvl from the other quest it wont sem so daunting

 

yeh i know how it feels to have content that you cannot access i didnt have a firecape for icestryke when they were released.

 

2300 total is rank 6k and that is skill avarage of 92 so thats still a small population they can make quest that even a 138 has trouble with as thier are a ton of 138s!

 

so yes they should but it has to be gradual week to week

 

quest cape will definately become an uber cape if they forget to make a max cape ;p

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they should require high skill as skills are getting easier maybe 75 magic 2 years ago when wgs came out was considered high but now thiers at least 750 people with access to the max forums

 

tbh i dont think 120 dg shuld really play a part i this o.o that is the endgame skill so tbh someone that has reached all 99s has reached the end game and dg is only way to lvl

 

yeh the quest cape does make people feel entitled to wanna do all quest

 

i havent done love story or the 2 void quest but i did get a quest cape once and alot of people would feel upset if they came out with uberhigh requirements at this tim like 90+ farm or 90+ construction but they shuld step up the requirments gradually like they said.

 

next quest requires 69 agil then the next 74 agil then the next 78 agil and then 82 agil people will have the skil at the lvl from the other quest it wont sem so daunting

 

yeh i know how it feels to have content that you cannot access i didnt have a firecape for icestryke when they were released.

 

2300 total is rank 6k and that is skill avarage of 92 so thats still a small population they can make quest that even a 138 has trouble with as thier are a ton of 138s!

 

so yes they should but it has to be gradual week to week

 

quest cape will definately become an uber cape if they forget to make a max cape ;p

 

let's look at individual stats. no quests will require all stats at once: http://runescape.wikia.com/wiki/99

 

99 att: 110k people

99 str: 155k people

99 def: 83k people

99 range: 70k people

99 prayer: 18k people

99 mage: 69k people

99 rc: 4k people

99 con: 6k people

99 dung: 700 people

99 hp: 100k people

99 agil: 7k people

99 herb: 7k people

99 theiv: 16k people

99 craft: 11k people

99 fletch 106k people

99 slay: 11k people

99 hunt: 20k people

99 mine: 10k people

99 fish: 38k people

99 cook: 130k people

99 fm: 50k people

99 wc: 97k people

99 farm: 9k people

99 summon: 10k people

 

hundreds of thousands of players have skills that are 92+ where you got your numbers from, is a mystery.

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i apologize, i didn't read the whole post. i think the endgame quest(s) should have maybe a 2k+ total level requirement (including certain skills) and should not count either way towards a quest cape. just my two cents.

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