France bans the niqab

[obfuscator]

Article here: http://www.thestar.com/news/world/article/835148--french-ban-on-islamic-veils-easily-passes-vote

 

French parliament voted to ban the niqab (full face covering worn primarily by muslim women). Penalities include fines, and huge fines if you force someone to wear it.

Tourists to France can't wear them either.

 

Personally, I'm a tad suprised they went this route. I think that the full face covering is a little extreme but it is a religious thing and thus they should be allowed to practice.

 

A more ideal compromise would have been to not issue any photo ID to women wearing the veil. That way they could not drive, or vote, or do anything else requiring photo id(for good reason) - but they'd still have the freedom to wear the veil if they wanted to.

 

Opinions?

[Guy]

I know its a religious issue and all, but the French's argument is that we/they respect their culture of covering up when we/they are in the Islamic countries etc., and it shouldn't just be a one way thing. The French are saying (I think) that it is not the belief of their society, so don't do it. It's basically what the middle-eastern countries force people to do when in their countries, just reversed. I can see how it is controversial, but I think I'm with the French on this.. although yes it is a bit controversial.

[Alg]

Changed opinion: revising.

 

It's effectively a choice between French cultural values and Islamic cultural values.

[Serpent Eye]

A friend told me about this the other day. I said "What the hell?" then, and I'm still saying "What the hell?" now.

 

I don't know anything about the French government, but don't they have some sort of constitution? Or do they just not give a crap about the rights of their citizens? I know the article claims that "only about 1,900 women are believed to wear face-covering veils," but that's 1,900 women who are likely going to feel more alienated than they do already.

 

That's like trying to fine someone in America for walking around with a Bible in their hand.

 

Edit: I would support the fine and jail-time for people who force these women to wear the veils, but really, if the woman is freely choosing to, why penalize her?

[Sy_Accursed]

I think its a good move.

 

As previously stated women from our countries going to islamic countries are forced to cover up and meet their customs, so why should they be allowed to wear it in our countries as an exception to the rule?

After all in most western cultures you can't cover your face up too much for security purposes and you can be asked to move a scarf or w/e for id purposes; but they bypass it by claiming its a religious item. Yet in other cases, for example, christians have been reprimanded at work for wearing a small silver crucifix over their clothes.

[sees_all1]

This isn't right. Maybe its just the bigot in me, but I feel like individuals should be allowed to wear whatever they want. Sure, other countries don't guarantee freedom of speech or religion the way the United States does, but haven't we learned any lessons from history? The only thing that could've been worse is if they required them to wear it.

[Rainy_Day]

I think it makes sense in a security type of logic. Outright banning it seems a little too harsh, though I'm not much of a fan when I talk to someone and I cannot see their face/arms/body, so cannot anticipate much of what they may or may not do.

[magekillr]

It's racist policy, through and through.

 

I don't see the niqab as a religious tradition, it's cultural in its origins. There's evidence of it existing before Islam was even invented.

 

In so much as it's religious, however, Afghanistan Muslim women once wore head scarves similar to the women in Iran, or none at all! This was before the Russian invasion, of course.

 

In any case, I do not believe in cultural relativism. Sexism is a form of violence, and I do not think it should be tolerated; I see the niqab, burqa etc as a sexist "tradition" by putting the onus of men's sexual and power trips on women, just as has been done for centuries. When it comes to basic human rights, nothing pisses me off more than arguments based on "cultural acceptance." I just don't think banning it is a good way at combating a way of thinking. Education is the most important tool, that's what we should use. Banning it will be seen as a war on them, their culture, their religion, and their people.

 

This is the way this [cabbage] always happens and we never [bleep]ing learn from it. I understand the desire to minimize sexism (though I don't think that's what France is doing here - this is a pissing contest for the French equivalent of "real America" to show that they're going to "fight to keep France for the French"), but an outright ban is not going to be effective - it's just going to radicalize people even more. This will not be productive.

[Alg]

I agree with Magekillr. Well spoken (Written?).

 

Words I never thought I'd say (Type?)...

Was looking for a culture-related news piece for Sociology... Using this one. Thank you Y_Guy :grin:

[Laikrob]

Most women wears this by choice, and not just for religious reasons (which is why comparing it with religious symbols is incorrect), but because of tradition. It is a harmless tradition as long as it is volunteer, and the women I have spoken to who wears niqabs are proud of their veils - and women who "just" wear scarves are wondering what will be next. I have traveled a lot and lived with families where both niqabs and scarves were common, and at no time was it expected of me to cover my head or face - except of course if visiting holy buildings or places.

 

I don't buy the tourist argument, and while I agree that having your face covered on an ID or forcing or pressuring someone to into wearing anything to covering their face or even their head should be punishable, those are separate issues and do not warrant a downright ban. I worry about the consequences this will get for the rest of Europe, and fear that it will increase the unjust hatred that already is being expressed more and more openly towards muslims.

[Sam]

I think it's just silly. While I have strong views about other religions I believe that banning the niqab is extreme. The French government doesn't really have a right to dictate how Muslims practice their religion.

 

I do agree on basis of security though - you shouldn't be able to get a passport/ID if you are wearing one.

[Range_This11]

I've seen plenty of video clips where American women were forced to wear these when in an Islamic country. Now it's the other way around for them, deal with it. When in Rome....

[Alg]

I've seen plenty of video clips where American women were forced to wear these when in an Islamic country. Now it's the other way around for them, deal with it. When in Rome....

Because clearly the answer is to do the same thing in reverse.

[Range_This11]

I've seen plenty of video clips where American women were forced to wear these when in an Islamic country. Now it's the other way around for them, deal with it. When in Rome....

Because clearly the answer is to do the same thing in reverse.

It's not about getting in some sort of pissing contest over who is right or wrong, it's about adapting to the cultural norms when you are in another country. And now the norms have developed into law.

[Alg]

It's not about getting in some sort of pissing contest over who is right or wrong, it's about adapting to the cultural norms when you are in another country. And now the norms have developed into law.

I don't agree with forcing someone to choose someone else's culture over their own. Especially when the law is more or less specifically targeting them. We've tried that kind of thing before, and it usually makes things worse.

[Racheya]

Personally, while I understand why people want it gone, I think about it this way.

 

If they *are* being forced to wear this, or feel they can only go outside with the Niqab, then all you're going to do is push them further into repression. If they're being forced, all you're doing is forcing them to stay at home and the women just won't be allowed outside.

 

And really, it doesn't matter. Unless it's at places where ID & Security are necessary (like airports) then why should we try to force them to appease us? I understand that they should follow the culture, but it comes off as a bit wrong to me.

[OldJoe]

Good.

 

It's not one key-issue to me, but i'd like to recognize those i see when i go out. For instance, if i were a store owner, i'd never let them in, since i want to (again) recognize who comes (obviously, i would treat someone who wears a mask of some sort the same).

And lol, everything seems to be racist according to a few people on this forum, this is not.

[magekillr]

Good.

 

It's not one key-issue to me, but i'd like to recognize those i see when i go out. For instance, if i were a store owner, i'd never let them in, since i want to (again) recognize who comes (obviously, i would treat someone who wears a mask of some sort the same).

And lol, everything seems to be racist according to a few people on this forum, this is not.

 

This isn't the first time you've voiced your outright opposition to Muslims, Joe. On the mosque thread you supposedly opposed it for the location, but just as most people can reasonably suspect, there's underlying feelings. If it's not racism, then what is it?

 

Moreover, a country such as France doesn't have the greatest track record when it comes to tolerance of The Other. Just look at their recent treatment of the Roma people:

 

In blunt language, the European Commission on Tuesday called Frances deportation of Roma a disgrace and threatened legal action against the French government, claiming that it had misled European officials and that it was breaking European law.

 

President Nicolas Sarkozy, who faces record low approval ratings at home, has called Roma camps a source of crime and prostitution. Over the summer, his government expelled about 1,000 Roma, also known as Gypsies, in a move criticized by human rights groups and the Socialist opposition.

 

Over the weekend, a French directive was leaked that singles out the Roma as an ethnic group in the crackdown, contradicting repeated assurances by the government to the contrary.

 

The European Union justice commissioner, Viviane Reding, said that it was shocking that assurances given by French ministers in Brussels were being directly contradicted by actions in Paris. My patience is wearing thin. Enough is enough, a visibly angry Ms. Reding said at a news conference in Brussels. No member state can expect special treatment when fundamental values and European laws are at stake.

 

Ms. Reding likened the focus on Roma communities to ethnic cleansing. This was, she said, a situation that I had thought that Europe would not have to witness again after the Second World War.

 

E.U. Calls Frances Roma Expulsions a Disgrace

 

None of this is adding up to you? Do the math, mate, or are your prejudices just too hot to look in the face?

 

French leaders are participating in a pissing contest of who can keep "France for the French." It's bigoted and racist.

[Faux]

as much as i value personal freedom, i also detest religious stupidity like the niqab

[OldJoe]

[spoiler=spoil]

Good.

 

It's not one key-issue to me, but i'd like to recognize those i see when i go out. For instance, if i were a store owner, i'd never let them in, since i want to (again) recognize who comes (obviously, i would treat someone who wears a mask of some sort the same).

And lol, everything seems to be racist according to a few people on this forum, this is not.

 

This isn't the first time you've voiced your outright opposition to Muslims, Joe. On the mosque thread you supposedly opposed it for the location, but just as most people can reasonably suspect, there's underlying feelings. If it's not racism, then what is it?

 

Moreover, a country such as France doesn't have the greatest track record when it comes to tolerance of The Other. Just look at their recent treatment of the Roma people:

 

In blunt language, the European Commission on Tuesday called France’s deportation of Roma a “disgrace” and threatened legal action against the French government, claiming that it had misled European officials and that it was breaking European law.

 

President Nicolas Sarkozy, who faces record low approval ratings at home, has called Roma camps a source of crime and prostitution. Over the summer, his government expelled about 1,000 Roma, also known as Gypsies, in a move criticized by human rights groups and the Socialist opposition.

 

Over the weekend, a French directive was leaked that singles out the Roma as an ethnic group in the crackdown, contradicting repeated assurances by the government to the contrary.

 

The European Union justice commissioner, Viviane Reding, said that it was “shocking” that assurances given by French ministers in Brussels were being directly contradicted by actions in Paris. “My patience is wearing thin. Enough is enough,” a visibly angry Ms. Reding said at a news conference in Brussels. “No member state can expect special treatment when fundamental values and European laws are at stake.”

 

Ms. Reding likened the focus on Roma communities to ethnic cleansing. This was, she said, “a situation that I had thought that Europe would not have to witness again after the Second World War.”

 

E.U. Calls France’s Roma Expulsions a ‘Disgrace’

 

None of this is adding up to you? Do the math, mate, or are your prejudices just too hot to look in the face?

 

French leaders are participating in a pissing contest of who can keep "France for the French." It's bigoted and racist.

 

 

Mosque, i don't think it's fitting due to the victims, the only thing i said was that it, in my view, would be more fitting a couple of more blocks away. I never declared my views on muslims in that thread, nor on this forum as far as i can remember, please pm me where i've said these supposedly "racist" views. This is however not the topic, you always have pm if you want to.

 

I have only read a short note about that roma-camps, i haven't dug deeper into that particular issue. I don't have a view on it due to little info and i don't have time to dig around about that either.

And can you please stop trying to insinuate that i have underlying views about certain topics. I don't have underlying views, what i say is what i say, i don't have a deeper meaning in my sentences.

[Nadril]

I know its a religious issue and all, but the French's argument is that we/they respect their culture of covering up when we/they are in the Islamic countries etc., and it shouldn't just be a one way thing. The French are saying (I think) that it is not the belief of their society, so don't do it. It's basically what the middle-eastern countries force people to do when in their countries, just reversed. I can see how it is controversial, but I think I'm with the French on this.. although yes it is a bit controversial.

 

That's not exactly a good excuse. "Well, they do it in the middle east so it must be fine than".

 

I thought that countries such as France were supposed to be ahead in terms of personal freedoms.

[The Dark Lord]

I wholeheartedly support this move because I'm a racist bigot.

[stevepole]

I don't have much of a opinion on this, but I find it an interesting move by the French government and I'm curious to see how it plays out.

[Lenticular_J]

It's racist policy, through and through.

 

I don't see the niqab as a religious tradition, it's cultural in its origins. There's evidence of it existing before Islam was even invented.

 

In so much as it's religious, however, Afghanistan Muslim women once wore head scarves similar to the women in Iran, or none at all! This was before the Russian invasion, of course.

 

In any case, I do not believe in cultural relativism. Sexism is a form of violence, and I do not think it should be tolerated; I see the niqab, burqa etc as a sexist "tradition" by putting the onus of men's sexual and power trips on women, just as has been done for centuries. When it comes to basic human rights, nothing pisses me off more than arguments based on "cultural acceptance." I just don't think banning it is a good way at combating a way of thinking. Education is the most important tool, that's what we should use. Banning it will be seen as a war on them, their culture, their religion, and their people.

 

This is the way this [cabbage] always happens and we never [bleep]ing learn from it. I understand the desire to minimize sexism (though I don't think that's what France is doing here - this is a pissing contest for the French equivalent of "real America" to show that they're going to "fight to keep France for the French"), but an outright ban is not going to be effective - it's just going to radicalize people even more. This will not be productive.

Hey, I kind of agree with you. I mean, once you started going into sexism and the Russian invasion, you lost my real support. But you get what I mean - and you're right about the history. The owner of a restaurant I frequent is Lebanese, and even he remembers the time when girls and boys played together happily. That it wasn't much different from how we act here (apart from the differences bound to come up).

 

This is a stupid policy. I just don't understand why they would ban, of all things, something like that. It's childish. Are there not women who wear it because they feel it is right? If it's their view, and they aren't being forced, I see absolutely no reason to force them not to wear it.

[fastortoise]

I don't have much of a opinion on this, but I find it an interesting move by the French government and I'm curious to see how it plays out.

Pretty much (Y). I'm very very very glad that at least one country is trying it, that way we can get things done (whether or not this will turn out to be a good thing, this advances the boundaries of what we know we can do).