France bans the niqab

[Will H]

Although I suspect I'm in the minority about this, I believe every country has a right to enforce basic laws about public dress, but not private. Before people should criticise this law, consider that in France, where a common greeting is to kiss each other on both cheeks, the presence of a face covering garment probably represents something deeper to the French than not showing your whole face. Disrespect for culture does indeed go both ways.

 

I dislike the whole principle of anyone covering up their face because someone else is present, and even more so because of gender. I'd go so far to say that they're offensive and accusatory.

[Zygimantas]

It's racist policy, through and through.

 

I don't see the niqab as a religious tradition, it's cultural in its origins. There's evidence of it existing before Islam was even invented.

 

In so much as it's religious, however, Afghanistan Muslim women once wore head scarves similar to the women in Iran, or none at all! This was before the Russian invasion, of course.

This has nothing to do with racism, Muslims are not a race. France has always tried to keep their culture strictly french, so this move is unsurprising.

[Range_This11]

Although I suspect I'm in the minority about this, I believe every country has a right to enforce basic laws about public dress, but not private. Before people should criticise this law, consider that in France, where a common greeting is to kiss each other on both cheeks, the presence of a face covering garment probably represents something deeper to the French than not showing your whole face. Disrespect for culture does indeed go both ways.

 

I dislike the whole principle of anyone covering up their face because someone else is present, and even more so because of gender. I'd go so far to say that they're offensive and accusatory.

I definitely agree with this. It's France, they can do as they please.

[magekillr]

I don't see how because France has typically tried to keep their country "French" that it excuses their racism; it just indicts their government as hostile to The Other, which was my original premise.

 

Lenticular_J, I don't know how I lost you talking about sexism and the Russian invasion, but it's quite clear that these hijabs are meant to keep women from view, making it a sexist symbol. And here are pictures of Afghanistan before the Russians invaded, which opened up a power vacuum for extremists to take over (The Northern Alliance and the Taliban):

 

 

 

 

Just some samples.

[Zierro]

Of course the Islamic rule that you must wear one is ridiculous, but that's no justification for you to decide what people are not allowed to wear. It seems hypocritical to me. That's just one more country that these women are being oppressed in.

[Shiny]

I think they are treading on their personal rights. I think it definitely makes sense from a security point of view, and a man doesn't have any right to force a woman to wear a niqab.

 

What France should have done instead was introduce a culture of prevention surrounding the niqab, imposing penalties for men who force their women to wear the full body niqab. I think if that process was taken, it would be far less controversial.

[jimmy_jim]

Good.

 

They're talking about banning it here as well (or at least making laws about it in certain places like in shops or while driving). There's been a few cases where a policeman has asked a women wearing it to remove it and the women have said no. There was a case not long ago where the police went to remove it for her so he could see her face to match to her ID while he was writing a fine and she scratched his face causing him blindness in his left eye, and that wasn't the first time something like that had happened.

 

Also, comparing it to someone walking around with a bible or wearing a turban is a bit weird, I see this as more of a security issue as people can't identify people whom are wearing it.

 

imposing penalties for men who force their women to wear the full body niqab.

 

And how would that be implemented successfully?

[Zygimantas]

I don't see how because France has typically tried to keep their country "French" that it excuses their racism; it just indicts their government as hostile to The Other, which was my original premise.

Oh please, do you even know what racism is? Just because they may not like people who have certain beliefs does not make them racists. Now, for example, if they had a problem against everyone who was of middle-eastern decent, then they would be racists.

[Giordano]

I don't see how because France has typically tried to keep their country "French" that it excuses their racism; it just indicts their government as hostile to The Other, which was my original premise.

Oh please, do you even know what racism is? Just because they may not like people who have certain beliefs does not make them racists. Now, for example, if they had a problem against everyone who was of middle-eastern decent, then they would be racists.

The problem is that most people confuse Muslims as Arabs. One's a religion, the other is a race.

[dusky]

Is it just me, or like 15 people said the exact same thing that goes along the lines of, " It does seem oppresive, but it does make sense from a security point of view" ?

[sees_all1]

Is it just me, or like 15 people said the exact same thing that goes along the lines of, " It does seem oppresive, but it does make sense from a security point of view" ?

 

Pretty much.

 

I think the security thing was a false front for their real agenda - they want to stop Muslims (and Sharia law) from "invading" France. Easiest way to do that is to stop them from practicing their beliefs.

Also, the law makes a distinction between a woman that chooses to wear it and a woman that's forced to wear it - 100euro fine for the woman that chooses to wear it, some ridiculously high amount (on the order of 10,000, if I remember correctly) for a woman that's forced to wear it (not to her, but the dude forcing her).

[Giordano]

they want to stop Muslims (and Sharia law) from "invading" France.

Remember Tours '32!

[Laikrob]

I've seen plenty of video clips where American women were forced to wear these when in an Islamic country. Now it's the other way around for them, deal with it. When in Rome....

And I have traveled and visited friends in several Islamic countries and have never been forced to or even expected to wear one. Sorry, but "I have seen videos" isn't really a viable source in debates like these. Sure, I am subjective, but at least I have spoken to and had interaction with several women who wears veils/scarves/niqabs, are sister wives and practice several of those traditions that many chalk up to religion a bit too fast. I am not saying it's all sunshine, but the view that muslim women are weak and muslim men treat women like their property is a western stereotype which is very generalising at best. Muslims make up for the majority in countries all over the world, many of these countries are peaceful with great education systems and human rights - including woman's rights.

 

(To the person who brought up the episode of the woman who scratched a police officer because he forced her to remove the veil... Well, if just about any woman was forced by a male police officer to show a part of their body that they preferred to keep hidden to males, they would panic - especially if they didn't fully comprehend the situation. Yes, her reaction was definitely over the line, but then again you see guys hitting, spitting at and kicking police officers daily as a reaction to what they feel is unfair treatment. Just saying that if you put it in perspective it had a very unfortunate outcome for the police officer, but the actions were not worse than what you could compare it with.)

[obfuscator]

Agreed with the above. I work with several muslim women (none wear a full face veil, but some wear the head covering) and I respect their right to do so.

 

Only thing they can fairly prevent is getting photo IDs/using photo ID's. Other than that there's no grounds to enforce this.

[Omar]

I think its a good move.

 

As previously stated women from our countries going to islamic countries are forced to cover up and meet their customs, so why should they be allowed to wear it in our countries as an exception to the rule?

 

Yeah, let's take a cue from the Middle East and start applying the same logic. Actually, no, let's not. They're not doing all that well.

They have different values. We can't go into other countries telling them what's right and wrong, and we can't tell people who were socialized in those countries to follow our values.

How would you feel if you moved to another country, and they passed a law imposing nudism for security reasons? Would that make you uncomfortable? It would go against everything you've been taught. And it would be unjust, because there's nothing really harmful about being clothed, save for that mild security concernbut really, being in the nude wouldn't stop you from committing a crime if you really wanted to, you'd just find another way to commit it.

We should legislate against what is harmful, not what is abnormal or strange.

[Zygimantas]

I think its a good move.

 

As previously stated women from our countries going to islamic countries are forced to cover up and meet their customs, so why should they be allowed to wear it in our countries as an exception to the rule?

 

Yeah, let's take a cue from the Middle East and start applying the same logic. Actually, no, let's not. They're not doing all that well.

They have different values. We can't go into other countries telling them what's right and wrong, and we can't tell people who were socialized in those countries to follow our values.

How would you feel if you moved to another country, and they passed a law imposing nudism for security reasons? Would that make you uncomfortable? It would go against everything you've been taught. And it would be unjust, because there's nothing really harmful about being clothed, save for that mild security concernbut really, being in the nude wouldn't stop you from committing a crime if you really wanted to, you'd just find another way to commit it.

We should legislate against what is harmful, not what is abnormal or strange.

If you don't like the laws of the country then leave. Every country has the right to have their own laws, if they crumble because of them then so be it. Its not like people are being killed or discriminated against here, the law is the same for everyone. But really, if a country adopted nudism as a law, then I would either get used to it or move to a different country...

[Omar]

Its not like people are being killed or discriminated against here, the law is the same for everyone.

 

<removed inappropriate section of post,I'm sure you can think of a better way to argue than through personal attacks ~ Jimmy_Jim> Do you really think muslims (not all of them obviously) aren't the only people who want to wear it?

[Edit] Sorry, that's something my friends and I say to each other without thinking about it much.

But really, if a country adopted nudism as a law, then I would either get used to it or move to a different country...

Have you ever even moved? I've changed countries four times in my life, and I'm not talking about tourism. It's an enormous pain in the ass. Except that was for work, my family had a valid reason to do it. Imagine being forced to exile yourself because the way you dress is weird, unless you start dressing in a way that is basically equivalent to not wearing anything for you and I. I've seen women covered from head to toe in the bus, and I thought "wow, that's a little strange" but I carried on with my life and I was fine.

Of course every country is allowed to have its own laws. That doesn't make anything right, and it doesn't mean it shouldn't be criticized. We're better off crushing laws like these than waiting for the accumulation of them to eat the country from its foundations. Their motto is "freedom, equality, brotherhood". This law goes against all of them. It's so simple to say "Whatever, they'll [bleep] up and know they made a mistake later" when you're not the one whose fundamental rights are being violated. It's not like the non-muslims will think "man, not having those niqabs really sucks now that I think about it". It's the 1,900 women who will take all the impact.

[Nadril]

If you don't like the laws of the country then leave. Every country has the right to have their own laws, if they crumble because of them then so be it. Its not like people are being killed or discriminated against here, the law is the same for everyone. But really, if a country adopted nudism as a law, then I would either get used to it or move to a different country...

 

That's a dumb argument and you know it. Yeah countries have a "right" to creating laws and people have a right to oppose any unjust or unfair laws. This is an unjust law.

 

And somehow I just don't see this being a security concern. I mean I don't think Muslim women are exactly a large source of crime in France...

 

 

I just don't see how some people can apply some of these arguments such as "well the middle east does it, so it is fine!". That means really one of two things. One, you think that oppressing people and forcing them to wear a certain clothing (or not wear) is a good idea or you take a childish route and say "well you guys do it so we're going to do something too!". Either way you put it it seems silly to me, likewise worrying about "security concerns" seems silly.

[The Dark Lord]

I think France is trying to preserve their unique way of life rather than becoming a melting pot (i.e. cesspool) in which the French culture dies.

 

Also, it's probably due to what someone mentioned earlier. The French people like to kiss each other on the cheek as a greeting, and having a covered face probably is offensive to them because of their culture.

[Zygimantas]

Its not like people are being killed or discriminated against here, the law is the same for everyone.

Are you on crack? Do you really think muslims (not all of them obviously) aren't the only people who want to wear it?

 

But really, if a country adopted nudism as a law, then I would either get used to it or move to a different country...

Have you ever even moved? I've changed countries four times in my life, and I'm not talking about tourism. It's an enormous pain in the ass. Except that was for work, my family had a valid reason to do it. Imagine being forced to exile yourself because the way you dress is weird, unless you start dressing in a way that is basically equivalent to not wearing anything for you and I. I've seen women covered from head to toe in the bus, and I thought "wow, that's a little strange" but I carried on with my life and I was fine.

Of course every country is allowed to have its own laws. That doesn't make anything right, and it doesn't mean it shouldn't be criticized. We're better off crushing laws like these than waiting for the accumulation of them to eat the country from its foundations. Their motto is "freedom, equality, brotherhood". This law goes against all of them. It's so simple to say "Whatever, they'll [bleep] up and know they made a mistake later" when you're not the one whose fundamental rights are being violated. It's not like the non-muslims will think "man, not having those niqabs really sucks now that I think about it". It's the 1,900 women who will take all the impact.

Its their choice, they don't have to wear it.

 

And yes, I have moved from another country (although I was young). The thing is, they aren't forced to exile, and if everyone around you were to wear nothing as well, then it shouldn't be too hard to eventually adapt. But yes, the government obviously doesn't want the woman around, and they are probably doing this to keep muslims away. But what can we do about it? At least they aren't being violent.

[i_love_burritos]

They want to stop Sharia law from "invading" France.

 

Why wouldn't you want to do that ? Look at the situation in the UK.

[sees_all1]

They want to stop Sharia law from "invading" France.

 

Why wouldn't you want to do that ? Look at the situation in the UK.

I really could care less about their true motives, but I'd rather have them be straight with the rest of the world about it.

Also, (not to accuse anyone) this could be a case of hypocrisy. Its OK if France (and the majority of the French population) discriminates against Muslims and supports anti-Islamic policies, but its not OK if the US (majority of it's population) wants Imam Rauf to not build a Mosque near Ground Zero.

[Giordano]

How is that hypocrisy? Are you suggesting America, France, and the other nations of the world are ruled by a single dictator? Or the Freemasons, thus all under the same government?

 

TELL ME.

[sees_all1]

How is that hypocrisy? Are you suggesting America, France, and the other nations of the world are ruled by a single dictator? Or the Freemasons, thus all under the same government?

 

TELL ME.

 

I'm unclear what you're asking. Could you please re-phrase?

[Alg]

How is that hypocrisy? Are you suggesting America, France, and the other nations of the world are ruled by a single dictator? Or the Freemasons, thus all under the same government?

 

TELL ME.

I think he means the opposite. People like majority rule until the majority believes differently than they do. People are fine with something like this, but not a majority being against the ground zero mosque, even though the same arguments can be used in both cases (Notably Islamophobia)