Serpent Eye Posted September 18, 2010 Share Posted September 18, 2010 Perhaps my comparison to carrying a Bible around was incorrect -- I had always assumed that it was a religious practice to wear these veils, but now I'm guessing that it's actually more of a cultural thing, or something that the men were just doing to suppress the women. I really, really don't understand the argument about "wanting to see someone's face." In my line of work, I see thousands of people on a daily basis, with quite a few wearing sunglasses, hats, face masks (the doctor/construction type ones that cover your mouth and nose) or other objects that may obscure my view of their face. I have never once felt like my safety was at risk because their face was covered up. :rolleyes: This just seems like a cheap excuse with which to justify people's discrimination or misplaced fears. I do agree that on any sort of government ID (driver's licence, ID badge for work, passport, etc.) you shouldn't be allowed to wear them in the photo, but as far as wearing one while you walk over to the market or down the street... who gives a crap what you put on your head? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will H Posted September 18, 2010 Share Posted September 18, 2010 What about CCTV? A lot of cases of crime have been solved because most shops and public places have CCTV cameras installed. I can very easily imagine people using the veil to commit shoplifting or other crimes, even if they're not Muslim. Many shops don't allow people to even wear hoodies with the hood up, and that's only a cultural thing. Why not the veil? ~ W ~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meol Posted September 18, 2010 Share Posted September 18, 2010 The whole security arguments are just a facade for other motives. Maybe "racism" would be the wrong word, but this does reek of xenophobia, especially if you also see what the French government is also doing with the Roma camps. Sure, they say they target all illegal settlements, but Romas are being targeted as a priority. Saying "at least they are not violent" or "they do this in the Middle East too" is just a red herring. We still should be able to take a look at this and say if it's wrong. This signature is intentionally left blank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omar Posted September 18, 2010 Share Posted September 18, 2010 Its their choice, they don't have to wear it.It's religion. According to their beliefs, if they don't wear it, they will suffer consequences from above.And yes, I have moved from another country (although I was young). The thing is, they aren't forced to exile, and if everyone around you were to wear nothing as well, then it shouldn't be too hard to eventually adapt. But yes, the government obviously doesn't want the woman around, and they are probably doing this to keep muslims away. Clearly it's not that easy to adapt since they have to be forced to change; if it was okay with them they would have done it a long time ago. Besides, I doubt these women don't know each other at all. I'm not saying there's a country-wide niqab ring in France, but I wouldn't be surprised if these women (and their husbands, who likely have the same convictions) had more influence on each other than the rest of France does.But what can we do about it? Protest, convince people that it's a deeply unjust and useless law, etc. There never was a De Gaulle, a Jefferson, a Robespierre or a Danton who ever pondered what was wrong with their country, and found nothing to do about it. Matt: You want that eh? You want everything good for you. You want everything that's--falls off garbage can Camera guy: Whoa, haha, are you okay dude? Matt: You want anything funny that happens, don't you? Camera guy: still laughing Matt: You want the funny shit that happens here and there, you think it comes out of your [bleep]ing [wagon] pushes garbage can down, don't you? You think it's funny? It comes out of here! running towards Camera guy Camera guy: runs away still laughing Matt: You think the funny comes out of your mother[bleep]ing creativity? Comes out of Satan, mother[bleep]er! nn--ngh! pushes Camera guy down Camera guy: Hoooholy [bleep]! Matt: FUNNY ISN'T REAL! FUNNY ISN'T REAL! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
obfuscator Posted September 18, 2010 Author Share Posted September 18, 2010 What about CCTV? A lot of cases of crime have been solved because most shops and public places have CCTV cameras installed. I can very easily imagine people using the veil to commit shoplifting or other crimes, even if they're not Muslim. Many shops don't allow people to even wear hoodies with the hood up, and that's only a cultural thing. Why not the veil?Lol I've never heard of video footage showing a woman in a niqab shoplifting. If a criminal wants to cover their face, they'll cover their face. "It's not a rest for me, it's a rest for the weights." - Dom Mazzetti Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will H Posted September 18, 2010 Share Posted September 18, 2010 What about CCTV? A lot of cases of crime have been solved because most shops and public places have CCTV cameras installed. I can very easily imagine people using the veil to commit shoplifting or other crimes, even if they're not Muslim. Many shops don't allow people to even wear hoodies with the hood up, and that's only a cultural thing. Why not the veil?Lol I've never heard of video footage showing a woman in a niqab shoplifting. If a criminal wants to cover their face, they'll cover their face. Ah, but a criminal would rather cover their face as well at not draw attention or risk being asked to uncover. Right now, criminals can't have both, but the acceptance of the niqab would give them just that. ~ W ~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faux Posted September 18, 2010 Share Posted September 18, 2010 Perhaps my comparison to carrying a Bible around was incorrect -- I had always assumed that it was a religious practice to wear these veils, but now I'm guessing that it's actually more of a cultural thing, or something that the men were just doing to suppress the women. I really, really don't understand the argument about "wanting to see someone's face." In my line of work, I see thousands of people on a daily basis, with quite a few wearing sunglasses, hats, face masks (the doctor/construction type ones that cover your mouth and nose) or other objects that may obscure my view of their face. I have never once felt like my safety was at risk because their face was covered up. :rolleyes: This just seems like a cheap excuse with which to justify people's discrimination or misplaced fears. I do agree that on any sort of government ID (driver's licence, ID badge for work, passport, etc.) you shouldn't be allowed to wear them in the photo, but as far as wearing one while you walk over to the market or down the street... who gives a crap what you put on your head?you don't see the argument in "wanting to see someone's face"? really? your personal anecdotes don't mean a thing. my dad works in a plant that requires sophisticated IDs to enter every building and you're calling that meaningless? hell even my school's GYM requires to see everyone's face. when i take tests my face has to be seen. lmao. it's not just the face covered up anyway. it's the WHOLE body. can you tell if a man or a woman is wearing this right now? telling a modern country like France that not enabling these religious fanatics is wrong is archaic. the west does not have to adapt blatant primitive practices like this. :: Guess the Movie Contest Champion: pfilc23 :: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omar Posted September 18, 2010 Share Posted September 18, 2010 you don't see the argument in "wanting to see someone's face"? really? Are you really profoundly disturbed by the fact that you can't see their faces? I agree that it's weird, that you might not want to have anything to do with these women, but not that they should be forced to dress normally. your personal anecdotes don't mean a thing. my dad works in a plant that requires sophisticated IDs to enter every building and you're calling that meaningless? hell even my school's GYM requires to see everyone's face. when i take tests my face has to be seen. lmao. Then let's stop them from working in plants like these instead of forcing them to be dressed according to our standards all the time... If something really requires a visible face, then they shouldn't be allowed to do it unless they uncover their faces, but not everything requires that. it's not just the face covered up anyway. it's the WHOLE body. can you tell if a man or a woman is wearing this right now? I see trannies at the mall all the time, and sometimes I'm not sure if they're men or women... Never bothered me that much. telling a modern country like France that not enabling these religious fanatics is wrong is archaic. the west does not have to adapt blatant primitive practices like this. It does! There's nothing better about western norms. They're different, but they have no advantages over each other. Matt: You want that eh? You want everything good for you. You want everything that's--falls off garbage can Camera guy: Whoa, haha, are you okay dude? Matt: You want anything funny that happens, don't you? Camera guy: still laughing Matt: You want the funny shit that happens here and there, you think it comes out of your [bleep]ing [wagon] pushes garbage can down, don't you? You think it's funny? It comes out of here! running towards Camera guy Camera guy: runs away still laughing Matt: You think the funny comes out of your mother[bleep]ing creativity? Comes out of Satan, mother[bleep]er! nn--ngh! pushes Camera guy down Camera guy: Hoooholy [bleep]! Matt: FUNNY ISN'T REAL! FUNNY ISN'T REAL! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faux Posted September 18, 2010 Share Posted September 18, 2010 Western norms have distinct advantages over Islamic ones. You know, like not hanging homosexuals. If you live in Ontario and fail to realize that, your school board must be one hell of a [cabbage]hole. :: Guess the Movie Contest Champion: pfilc23 :: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zygimantas Posted September 18, 2010 Share Posted September 18, 2010 Its their choice, they don't have to wear it.It's religion. According to their beliefs, if they don't wear it, they will suffer consequences from above.And yes, I have moved from another country (although I was young). The thing is, they aren't forced to exile, and if everyone around you were to wear nothing as well, then it shouldn't be too hard to eventually adapt. But yes, the government obviously doesn't want the woman around, and they are probably doing this to keep muslims away. Clearly it's not that easy to adapt since they have to be forced to change; if it was okay with them they would have done it a long time ago. Besides, I doubt these women don't know each other at all. I'm not saying there's a country-wide niqab ring in France, but I wouldn't be surprised if these women (and their husbands, who likely have the same convictions) had more influence on each other than the rest of France does.But what can we do about it? Protest, convince people that it's a deeply unjust and useless law, etc. There never was a De Gaulle, a Jefferson, a Robespierre or a Danton who ever pondered what was wrong with their country, and found nothing to do about it.I know/see Muslims all the time who don't wear it. It doesn't make it hard to adapt, they just never had to try. Even though they might be against the religion, they are not burning books or places of worship regarding Islam. They are just banning an article of clothing that is apparently optional within the religion. 99 Hunter - November 1st, 200899 Cooking -July 22nd, 200999 Firemaking - July 29th, 201099 Fletching - December 30th, 2010 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meb Posted September 18, 2010 Share Posted September 18, 2010 People who think this is bad don't live in a country with a lot of muslim immigrants. Retired 2146 overall - 136 combat - 6 skillcapes Plus I think the whole teenage girl thing will end soon (hopefully), because my girlfriend is absolutely in love with him(she is 18), and im beginning to feel threatened by his [Justin Bieber] dashing looks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faux Posted September 18, 2010 Share Posted September 18, 2010 People who think this is bad don't live in a country with a lot of muslim immigrants. i would leave the country for sure :: Guess the Movie Contest Champion: pfilc23 :: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omar Posted September 18, 2010 Share Posted September 18, 2010 Western norms have distinct advantages over Islamic ones. You know, like not hanging homosexuals. If you live in Ontario and fail to realize that, your school board must be one hell of a [cabbage]hole.Iran thinks homosexuality is immoral. Canada thinks it's abnormal, but still okay. I used the word norm for a reason.I go to a private school which charges around 7000$ per year, by the way. Diplomats from many countries have their children go to that school. At the last count we have students from 72 different countries. I don't know what you've been taught at your school, but I've learned to tolerate other religions/cultures.I know/see Muslims all the time who don't wear it. It doesn't make it hard to adapt, they just never had to try. Even though they might be against the religion, they are not burning books or places of worship regarding Islam. They are just banning an article of clothing that is apparently optional within the religion.Not all Muslims are the same. Some Christians are Baptists and some don't go to church. I'm not sure the niqab is a religious thing as much as it is cultural though. And even then, not all Middle-Easterns are the same. Why would they feel the need to change the way they dress? Maybe their faith is stronger than their desire to mix with the rest of the population. For your third point, see my first. Matt: You want that eh? You want everything good for you. You want everything that's--falls off garbage can Camera guy: Whoa, haha, are you okay dude? Matt: You want anything funny that happens, don't you? Camera guy: still laughing Matt: You want the funny shit that happens here and there, you think it comes out of your [bleep]ing [wagon] pushes garbage can down, don't you? You think it's funny? It comes out of here! running towards Camera guy Camera guy: runs away still laughing Matt: You think the funny comes out of your mother[bleep]ing creativity? Comes out of Satan, mother[bleep]er! nn--ngh! pushes Camera guy down Camera guy: Hoooholy [bleep]! Matt: FUNNY ISN'T REAL! FUNNY ISN'T REAL! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faux Posted September 18, 2010 Share Posted September 18, 2010 Iran thinks homosexuality is immoral. Canada thinks it's abnormal, but still okay. I used the word norm for a reason.I go to a private school which charges around 7000$ per year, by the way. Diplomats from many countries have their children go to that school. At the last count we have students from 72 different countries. I don't know what you've been taught at your school, but I've learned to tolerate other religions/cultures. Iran murders homosexuals and Canada lets gays marry. Yeah there's no advantage to living in Canada. That money is wasted on you. :: Guess the Movie Contest Champion: pfilc23 :: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zygimantas Posted September 18, 2010 Share Posted September 18, 2010 I know/see Muslims all the time who don't wear it. It doesn't make it hard to adapt, they just never had to try. Even though they might be against the religion, they are not burning books or places of worship regarding Islam. They are just banning an article of clothing that is apparently optional within the religion.Not all Muslims are the same. Some Christians are Baptists and some don't go to church. I'm not sure the niqab is a religious thing as much as it is cultural though. And even then, not all Middle-Easterns are the same. Why would they feel the need to change the way they dress? Maybe their faith is stronger than their desire to mix with the rest of the population. For your third point, see my first.Well now they would probably not want to wear the niqab because they would get in trouble with the law. The french just don't want too many outside influences like women who wear niqabs to mix with their culture. Why is that a problem? They don't respect certain beliefs, thats all. What other way do you suggest to go about it if you don't want certain people in your society? 99 Hunter - November 1st, 200899 Cooking -July 22nd, 200999 Firemaking - July 29th, 201099 Fletching - December 30th, 2010 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Posted September 18, 2010 Share Posted September 18, 2010 People who think this is bad don't live in a country with a lot of muslim immigrants. I live in Britain, I would know - I still think it's bad. 2257AD.TUMBLR.COM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nadril Posted September 18, 2010 Share Posted September 18, 2010 telling a modern country like France that not enabling these religious fanatics is wrong is archaic. the west does not have to adapt blatant primitive practices like this. I find worshiping a God to be archaic but I'm not about to think that churches and bibles should be illegal and for good reason. People who think this is bad don't live in a country with a lot of muslim immigrants. Care to elaborate? I mean there are a lot of Muslim's who go to my college and it doesn't bother me at all. Maybe it's just because I'm from the U.S and we're used to pretty much everyone being an immigrant (cept those darn mexicans! j/k) so I don't really understand why you would oppose such a thing. It honestly baffles me. Well now they would probably not want to wear the niqab because they would get in trouble with the law. The french just don't want too many outside influences like women who wear niqabs to mix with their culture. Why is that a problem? They don't respect certain beliefs, thats all. What other way do you suggest to go about it if you don't want certain people in your society? If you don't want people in your society than don't allow people to immigrate there, I guess. I still find it dumb though and again maybe it was just how I was brought up. I understand culture is an important thing but it's not like these immigrants are changing how French-born people are acting, are they? Just let them be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
obfuscator Posted September 18, 2010 Author Share Posted September 18, 2010 People who think this is bad don't live in a country with a lot of muslim immigrants.Canadian, living in toronto. There are almost as many Muslims as Christians here. "It's not a rest for me, it's a rest for the weights." - Dom Mazzetti Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zygimantas Posted September 18, 2010 Share Posted September 18, 2010 Well now they would probably not want to wear the niqab because they would get in trouble with the law. The french just don't want too many outside influences like women who wear niqabs to mix with their culture. Why is that a problem? They don't respect certain beliefs, thats all. What other way do you suggest to go about it if you don't want certain people in your society? If you don't want people in your society than don't allow people to immigrate there, I guess. I still find it dumb though and again maybe it was just how I was brought up. I understand culture is an important thing but it's not like these immigrants are changing how French-born people are acting, are they? Just let them be.Well the thing is, Islam is spreading fairly fast in Europe now, maybe they fear that more and more women would adopt the belief of Islam and and more women would wear the niqab. The French don't won't this. Although you are right, they aren't really harming other people, so I personally disagree with this law. I just don't think that the French have to disagree with it as well. 99 Hunter - November 1st, 200899 Cooking -July 22nd, 200999 Firemaking - July 29th, 201099 Fletching - December 30th, 2010 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
i_love_burritos Posted September 19, 2010 Share Posted September 19, 2010 They want to stop Sharia law from "invading" France. Why wouldn't you want to do that ? Look at the situation in the UK.I really could care less about their true motives, but I'd rather have them be straight with the rest of the world about it.Also, (not to accuse anyone) this could be a case of hypocrisy. Its OK if France (and the majority of the French population) discriminates against Muslims and supports anti-Islamic policies, but its not OK if the US (majority of it's population) wants Imam Rauf to not build a Mosque near Ground Zero.What ? Whos true motives ? Wtf, clarify what you're saying. Either way, Sharia law [and courts] is a very bad idea in any country with it's own government and laws. Same goes for Jewish courts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sees_all1 Posted September 19, 2010 Share Posted September 19, 2010 They want to stop Sharia law from "invading" France. Why wouldn't you want to do that ? Look at the situation in the UK.I really could care less about their true motives, but I'd rather have them be straight with the rest of the world about it.Also, (not to accuse anyone) this could be a case of hypocrisy. Its OK if France (and the majority of the French population) discriminates against Muslims and supports anti-Islamic policies, but its not OK if the US (majority of it's population) wants Imam Rauf to not build a Mosque near Ground Zero.What ? Whos true motives ? Wtf, clarify what you're saying. Either way, Sharia law [and courts] is a very bad idea in any country with it's own government and laws. Same goes for Jewish courts.France just banned niqabs. They had one or more reasons for doing it. Many people here have cited security as a reason for banning them. I think a legitimate reason could be because they are Xenophobic, Islamaphobic, or they just hate Arabic immigrants. Either way, I don't care what their motives are, but I wish they'd be honest with themselves and the rest of the world why they did it. I also think that people who say the double standard is OK are hypocrites, with regard to the planned Mosque near ground zero. Someone thinking "This French policy is OK because they're doing it for security reasons, but Americans not wanting a mosque near ground zero must mean they're bigots" needs to open their eyes. 99 dungeoneering achieved, thanks to everyone that celebrated with me! ♪♪ Don't interrupt me as I struggle to complete this thoughtHave some respect for someone more forgetful than yourself ♪♪♪♪ And I'm not doneAnd I won't be till my head falls off ♪♪ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Comical Posted September 19, 2010 Share Posted September 19, 2010 What's the hell is a niqab? I've only heard it being called the burqa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Serpent Eye Posted September 19, 2010 Share Posted September 19, 2010 Perhaps my comparison to carrying a Bible around was incorrect -- I had always assumed that it was a religious practice to wear these veils, but now I'm guessing that it's actually more of a cultural thing, or something that the men were just doing to suppress the women. I really, really don't understand the argument about "wanting to see someone's face." In my line of work, I see thousands of people on a daily basis, with quite a few wearing sunglasses, hats, face masks (the doctor/construction type ones that cover your mouth and nose) or other objects that may obscure my view of their face. I have never once felt like my safety was at risk because their face was covered up. :rolleyes: This just seems like a cheap excuse with which to justify people's discrimination or misplaced fears. I do agree that on any sort of government ID (driver's licence, ID badge for work, passport, etc.) you shouldn't be allowed to wear them in the photo, but as far as wearing one while you walk over to the market or down the street... who gives a crap what you put on your head?you don't see the argument in "wanting to see someone's face"? really? your personal anecdotes don't mean a thing. my dad works in a plant that requires sophisticated IDs to enter every building and you're calling that meaningless? hell even my school's GYM requires to see everyone's face. when i take tests my face has to be seen. lmao. it's not just the face covered up anyway. it's the WHOLE body. can you tell if a man or a woman is wearing this right now? [image] telling a modern country like France that not enabling these religious fanatics is wrong is archaic. the west does not have to adapt blatant primitive practices like this."Your personal anecdotes don't mean a thing." :thumbup: Of course I understand the argument itself -- what I meant was, I don't think that it is a valid enough excuse to use in banning a garment of clothing. I'd be more worried about the handful of kids who probably bring knives (or worse) to your school every day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omar Posted September 19, 2010 Share Posted September 19, 2010 Iran thinks homosexuality is immoral. Canada thinks it's abnormal, but still okay. I used the word norm for a reason.I go to a private school which charges around 7000$ per year, by the way. Diplomats from many countries have their children go to that school. At the last count we have students from 72 different countries. I don't know what you've been taught at your school, but I've learned to tolerate other religions/cultures. Iran murders homosexuals and Canada lets gays marry. Yeah there's no advantage to living in Canada. That money is wasted on you.Can you please stop being insulting and pretending you know me? I get a very large discount because my mother works at my school.Canada doesn't allow polygamy, and yet it's not much of a harmful marriage. Ask a "typical" Irani and he'll tell you "Canada jails people who are guilty of polygamy and Iran lets them be!". According to our values, we've got the right things going on. According to theirs, they do. There is no such thing as a supreme culture which has figured out what's right and what's wrong. Matt: You want that eh? You want everything good for you. You want everything that's--falls off garbage can Camera guy: Whoa, haha, are you okay dude? Matt: You want anything funny that happens, don't you? Camera guy: still laughing Matt: You want the funny shit that happens here and there, you think it comes out of your [bleep]ing [wagon] pushes garbage can down, don't you? You think it's funny? It comes out of here! running towards Camera guy Camera guy: runs away still laughing Matt: You think the funny comes out of your mother[bleep]ing creativity? Comes out of Satan, mother[bleep]er! nn--ngh! pushes Camera guy down Camera guy: Hoooholy [bleep]! Matt: FUNNY ISN'T REAL! FUNNY ISN'T REAL! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satenza Posted September 19, 2010 Share Posted September 19, 2010 Most women wears this by choice, and not just for religious reasons (which is why comparing it with religious symbols is incorrect), but because of tradition. It is a harmless tradition as long as it is volunteer, and the women I have spoken to who wears niqabs are proud of their veils - and women who "just" wear scarves are wondering what will be next. I have traveled a lot and lived with families where both niqabs and scarves were common, and at no time was it expected of me to cover my head or face - except of course if visiting holy buildings or places. I don't buy the tourist argument, and while I agree that having your face covered on an ID or forcing or pressuring someone to into wearing anything to covering their face or even their head should be punishable, those are separate issues and do not warrant a downright ban. I worry about the consequences this will get for the rest of Europe, and fear that it will increase the unjust hatred that already is being expressed more and more openly towards muslims. Yes I agree with this. I also don't buy the argument that it may free these women from oppression, because that assumes firstly that they are being oppressed and if they are that this will somehow alleviate their oppression. I think if someone was being oppressed in this manner and was forced to wear the Niqab whist outside or in front of certain people that with the ban all that will happen is that these women will not be able to go outside or see anyone who they previously could see only whilst wearing the Niqab. All that will happen is those who freely choose to wear it will feel discriminated against, those who are forced to wear it will live in further oppression by being forced to remain indoors and the attack on muslims becomes more overt. I hope it doesn't spread to the UK, although a lot of people are already calling for something similar! With so many trees in the city you could see the spring coming each day until a night of warm wind would bring it suddenly in one morning. Sometimes the heavy cold rains would beat it back so that it would seem that it would never come and that you were losing a season out of your life. But you knew that there would always be the spring as you knew the river would flow again after it was frozen. When the cold rains kept on and killed the spring, it was as though a young person had died for no reason. In those days though the spring always came finally but it was frightening that it had nearly failed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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