Vegetarianism

[Sy_Accursed]

The point he's trying to make, I believe, is by showing you the maximum capacity of food an acre of land can produce (using the potato example) when not devoted to feeding livestock. In reality I don't think we would produce all of that food, it's only being used to prove a point and that is that we are wasting precious resources on the unnecessary production of livestock. You can twist the figures all you want, but the fact remains that it is an inefficient system that cannot possibly be sustained given our population. Perhaps 500-1,000 years ago, but not today. Not without severe repercussions.

 

Also, let's not bring world hunger into this debate. It is about the consumption or non-consumption of meat. That type of thing only adds spin.

 

The flaw here being it IS being sustained and the only reason for hunger is food distribution and waste NOT lack of production.

 

Ergo the argument of vegetarianism making more food production is flawed in that we do not need more food production; AND people also ignore the chemical pollution of pesticides etc in crop growing and the pollution from vehicles required to plow, sow, water and harvest crops as well as the fact they take more to transport around so more pollution there and grains etc require more processing to result in an edible form than meat whihc again is more pollution.

[Range_This11]

The point he's trying to make, I believe, is by showing you the maximum capacity of food an acre of land can produce (using the potato example) when not devoted to feeding livestock. In reality I don't think we would produce all of that food, it's only being used to prove a point and that is that we are wasting precious resources on the unnecessary production of livestock. You can twist the figures all you want, but the fact remains that it is an inefficient system that cannot possibly be sustained given our population. Perhaps 500-1,000 years ago, but not today. Not without severe repercussions.

 

Also, let's not bring world hunger into this debate. It is about the consumption or non-consumption of meat. That type of thing only adds spin.

 

The flaw here being it IS being sustained and the only reason for hunger is food distribution and waste NOT lack of production.

 

Ergo the argument of vegetarianism making more food production is flawed in that we do not need more food production; AND people also ignore the chemical pollution of pesticides etc in crop growing and the pollution from vehicles required to plow, sow, water and harvest crops as well as the fact they take more to transport around so more pollution there and grains etc require more processing to result in an edible form than meat whihc again is more pollution.

Care to back any of that up with stats or links?

 

The fact remains that meat is an extremely inefficient product to produce and a detriment to the earth. The concept is not that hard to grasp.

[sees_all1]

Animal feces also make good fertilizers...

[Stilev]

Yes we waste resources by raising cattle, but there is alot of stuff we do that wastes a ton more resources so i think that argument, although valid, aint ganna happen, so stop talking about it i've taken college classes on this, and had discussion with teachers on this, know what it boils down to? i dont care, i like meat and i want to eat it, end of story, dont care what you think, "im no rabbit!" as my dad likes to say when my sister eats a salad and she offers some to him

 

side note you dont get alot of proteins, amino acids, and vitamins you get from eating meat, a more varied diet is overall better for human health then just meat or greens

[fakeitormakeit2]

I find eating meat a completely healthy, moral and natural thing to do as a human being. Humans are omnivores and their diet should be about 20% meat. I have no problem with vegetarians as long as they don't start telling me how disgusting I am for eating meat. I'm not crazy about meat, but it is an essential part of a varied diet, especially since I cannot eat many types of nuts/seeds. I do however like my lunch to be meat free as it isn't heavy on the stomach, my ideal lunch is a bowl of french onion soup and a panino of provalone, vegetables and pesto with a cappuccino and yogurt with sour cherries for dessert. I just find it a bit silly when people go all out to avoid consuming meat [unless its a fast of some sort].

[Serpent Eye]

Animal Waste - That figure is misleading. Even if nobody eats meat, some of the space used by cattle today will still be occupied by animals. Those animals still have waste, and it will still contribute to Global Warming (admittedly less, but still)

While it's true that there will always be animal waste as long as animals exist, the point is, there would be far less animals to begin with, as we wouldn't have a need to kill 10 billion+ animals every year in a single continent alone.

 

 

Ergo the argument of vegetarianism making more food production is flawed in that we do not need more food production; AND people also ignore the chemical pollution of pesticides etc in crop growing and the pollution from vehicles required to plow, sow, water and harvest crops as well as the fact they take more to transport around so more pollution there and grains etc require more processing to result in an edible form than meat whihc again is more pollution.

1. Growing, harvesting, and transporting cattle- and livestockfeed produces the same amount of pollution as growing, harvesting, and transporting grains used to directly feed people; arguably, the grains and food used to feed people produces less, since the extra steps of transporting animals to the slaughterhouse, transporting that to the meat-packing facilities, and transporting that to the grocery stores is removed.

 

2. Have you ever heard of organic food? No pesticides or harmful chemicals are used in growing organic food. :thumbup:

 

Yes we waste resources by raising cattle, but there is alot of stuff we do that wastes a ton more resources so i think that argument, although valid, aint ganna happen, so stop talking about it i've taken college classes on this, and had discussion with teachers on this, know what it boils down to? i dont care, i like meat and i want to eat it, end of story, dont care what you think, "im no rabbit!" as my dad likes to say when my sister eats a salad and she offers some to him

 

side note you dont get alot of proteins, amino acids, and vitamins you get from eating meat, a more varied diet is overall better for human health then just meat or greens

You've taken college classes on it? You could have fooled me, what with backing your argument up with "I like meat, I want to eat it, end of story!" Your facts are so mind-blowingly concrete, you've convinced me to start eating meat again. :rolleyes:

 

The argument here isn't about other random things that "wastes a ton more resources;" the argument here is strictly about the meat industry.

[obfuscator]

I don't eat meat on Fridays (originally for religious reasons, now out of habit) and I often do vegetarian meals depending on what I'm feeling like.

 

It's undeniable that vegetarianism has it's advantages - the point wep brought up about world hunger is quite true. The global warming one, well....debate for another time.

[Alg]

2. Have you ever heard of organic food? No pesticides or harmful chemicals are used in growing organic food. :thumbup:

Here's a gray area though. Apparently pesticides do help to increase production, among other things. It ends up being a tradeoff between the environment and getting more of a crop out of the land.

Though as I've heard it, locally grown foods are better anyway simply because they won't have to be shipped as far, which is good for obvious reasons.

[Zierro]

You could have fooled me, what with backing your argument up with "I like meat, I want to eat it, end of story!"

 

What's wrong with this line of reasoning?

[sees_all1]

Couple years ago a guy on my robotics team was getting ticked of by an outspoken vegetarian. He turned to the girl, and said - "You know what my favorite thing in the world is? When I take a big bite out of a nice steak and it bleeds".

 

I've since found its one of my favorite things too. :wink:

[Range_This11]

Vegetarians that force their views on other people are morons that only need to reaffirm to themselves that what they are doing is holier-than-thou. I only tell people under certain circumstances, this topic being one of them. If someone asks me if I want something with meat on it, I simply say "No, thanks" instead of saying "No, I'm a vegetarian" or "No, I don't eat meat".

[tortilliachp]

being a vegetarian i feel strongly antagonized by many on this topic. if that's not you, please bear with the tone of my post, it's not directed at you.

 

 

Every time i mention I'm a vegetarian, for whatever reason, i get bombarded by comments on the "holier-than-though" , health, what i actually eat, where i get my *insert random nutritional article here* and a bucket-load of justification for why whoever i'm talking to eats meat and why it's moral Maybe even more moral than not eating meat.

 

then comes the barrage of misinformation in disfavor of vegetarianism. please at least take the time to read Wikipedia on the subject, is 10 minutes too much to ask? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegetarianism

 

almost everything in this topic that's "negative" with vegetarianism, is sourced and referenced as incorrect in the main Wikipedia article. ignorance about facts on vegetarianism really do flourish.

 

 

I don't care what you eat, as long as you're aware of the choices you make. Especially the negative consequences of choices, and the impact on others (i don't particularly like the selfishly ignorant do you?). hit me with facts and not opinion, research and not blogs, or just say it outright: " I prioritize eating meat over the environment, than animals, than price, than living longer, than food safety (no e.coli mad cow disease etc), and so on." If you can be outright and be ethically responsible for your choice, i respect that a lot. the easy way out, is becoming a vegetarian.

 

I believe most of the animosity towards non-preaching vegetarians, originates from bad conscience eating meat. why else do people time and time and time again need to argue the fact that I'm a vegetarian, have been born and raised that way. I don't impose vegetarianism on anyone, yet people don't even believe me when i say that. Why if not because of guilt, does everyone want me to try eating meat? what's the big deal, you wouldn't eat your dog, or sister, i won't eat meat; it's just not what i'd personally consider food.

[Zierro]

" I prioritize eating meat over the environment, than animals, than price, than living longer, than food safety (no e.coli mad cow disease etc), and so on."

 

You make a clear distinction between the meat-eaters who've offended you and those who haven't, yet this sentence is aimed at every meat-eater. And you really wonder why people bring up the "holier than thou" thing?

[Range_This11]

" I prioritize eating meat over the environment, than animals, than price, than living longer, than food safety (no e.coli mad cow disease etc), and so on."

 

You make a clear distinction between the meat-eaters who've offended you and those who haven't, yet this sentence is aimed at every meat-eater. And you really wonder why people bring up the "holier than thou" thing?

For the most part, that statement is true (even if a bit bitter). Although I might take out the "living longer" portion because that's very subjective and has many other factors aside from diet.

[Assume Nothing]

being a vegetarian i feel strongly antagonized by many on this topic. if that's not you, please bear with the tone of my post, it's not directed at you.

 

 

Every time i mention I'm a vegetarian, for whatever reason, i get bombarded by comments on the "holier-than-though" , health, what i actually eat, where i get my *insert random nutritional article here* and a bucket-load of justification for why whoever i'm talking to eats meat and why it's moral Maybe even more moral than not eating meat.

 

then comes the barrage of misinformation in disfavor of vegetarianism. please at least take the time to read Wikipedia on the subject, is 10 minutes too much to ask? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegetarianism

 

almost everything in this topic that's "negative" with vegetarianism, is sourced and referenced as incorrect in the main Wikipedia article. ignorance about facts on vegetarianism really do flourish.

 

 

I don't care what you eat, as long as you're aware of the choices you make. Especially the negative consequences of choices, and the impact on others (i don't particularly like the selfishly ignorant do you?). hit me with facts and not opinion, research and not blogs, or just say it outright: " I prioritize eating meat over the environment, than animals, than price, than living longer, than food safety (no e.coli mad cow disease etc), and so on." If you can be outright and be ethically responsible for your choice, i respect that a lot. the easy way out, is becoming a vegetarian.

 

I believe most of the animosity towards non-preaching vegetarians, originates from bad conscience eating meat. why else do people time and time and time again need to argue the fact that I'm a vegetarian, have been born and raised that way. I don't impose vegetarianism on anyone, yet people don't even believe me when i say that. Why if not because of guilt, does everyone want me to try eating meat? what's the big deal, you wouldn't eat your dog, or sister, i won't eat meat; it's just not what i'd personally consider food.

 

The weak points of the moral argument is the fact that vegetarians blatantly ignore any possibility of a plant having the right to life (They are indeed living, they respond to stimuli, studies even show they have some sort of nervous system, perhaps even feeling pain)

 

The attitude that vegetarians tend to annoy me. To say that eating meat is selfish, is in itself, hypocritical. Have you at some point in your life, used animal products? How can you be sure you haven't?

 

To say that it is 'healthier' to eat a vegetarian diet than a healthy mixed diet is plainly biased and untrue. A good diet composed of a good balance of meat, vegetables and carbohydrates is essential. You wouldn't get much B12, Iron or Protein from other 'natural' sources, save dairy products.

 

To say "Eating meat has safety risks" is plain stupid. There is no problem with well-cooked meat, and if you're talking about e-coli, there is that same risk in eating eggs, correct?

 

You can't compare eating meat to eating your sister or dog. Those aren't farm animals, there is a difference. How you would feel, may not be what the animal feels. And also, question yourself this. Do you think animals in the wild die of old age having fulfilled a long, rewarding life? No, it is the battle of the beasts, most of the animals in the food industry are still preyed upon, even if we didn't eat them.

 

As for the climate argument - As long as the animal exists, it will pollute the planet. Simply not eating the meat does not change anything, unless any major changes are done to the meat industry.

 

Alot of the logic used in your post is flawed, think about it.

 

EDIT - Oh, and price.

 

How does that really come in? You're implying that the money factor is significant, yet it is not. In fact, I have found a quote on that. 'largely irrelevant socio-economic factor. Not being able to afford a lot of meat doesn't warrant its total exclusion. Besides, kippers are cheap and nutritious while the prices of organic vegetables, cashews, and packaged 'health products' can be astronomical.'

[Range_This11]

I don't feel like breaking down your argument and addressing things individually, so forgive me, someone else will probably do it.

 

But what I did find at least slightly amusing was the fact that you said this:

 

The weak points of the moral argument is the fact that vegetarians blatantly ignore any possibility of a plant having the right to life (They are indeed living, they respond to stimuli, studies even show they have some sort of nervous system, perhaps even feeling pain)

 

And then to close out your bulletproof argument you said this:

 

You can't compare eating meat to eating your sister or dog. Those aren't farm animals, there is a difference. How you would feel, may not be what the animal feels. And also, question yourself this.

 

It seems like you're implying that farm animals are somehow less human than we are and, in fact, do not have the right to life over my sister or my dog. Yet in the first quote, you are clearly invoking the right to life argument, claiming that vegetarians are the ones that are immoral. Your supposed "facts" are very contradictory, no? Stop playing the Devil's Advocate or stop trolling. Either way, you aren't very good at it.

 

EDIT: Firstly, I would like you to know that I will eat meat butchered on a local, family farm or from a local meat market. Your "quote" is extremely out of context. The prices that are being compared are NOT what it costs to produce the product, only what it costs to buy it from the store. Huge difference there, and some of us are very prepared to pay more for food that is organic. I like to shop at co-ops occasionally (only because they are VERY pricy), and that's two birds with one stone. Local and organic.

[Zierro]

" I prioritize eating meat over the environment, than animals, than price, than living longer, than food safety (no e.coli mad cow disease etc), and so on."

 

You make a clear distinction between the meat-eaters who've offended you and those who haven't, yet this sentence is aimed at every meat-eater. And you really wonder why people bring up the "holier than thou" thing?

For the most part, that statement is true (even if a bit bitter). Although I might take out the "living longer" portion because that's very subjective and has many other factors aside from diet.

 

He's belittling someone's motives for not wanting to become a vegetarian as if it simply comes down to "you care about meat so much that it will blind you to the point of going against all of these great (which is arguable) reasons".

 

Simply put, eating meat is not my "priority". However, you can say I "prioritize" eating a tastier and more convenient diet over wanting to scrutinize everything I eat to make sure it's void of meat so that I feel like a better person at the end of the day. The main thing is, being an omnivore is pretty much the default choice in our society. The way he worded it, he made it sound like I go out of my way to make sure I get my meat, when really it's the vegetarian who eats based off of their "priorities". I simply eat based off of opportunity (as a vulture) - not priorities (as an idealist).

 

I actually do eat vegetarian dishes all the time, just not on purpose - and I don't feel any more righteous when I do, and more importantly, I don't pay attention in the first place.

 

That was my beef with his post - not the actual reasons themselves, which is a different story.

 

It seems like you're implying that farm animals are somehow less human than we are and, in fact, do not have the right to life over my sister or my dog. Yet in the first quote, you are clearly invoking the right to life argument, claiming that vegetarians are the ones that are immoral. Your supposed "facts" are very contradictory, no? Stop playing the Devil's Advocate or stop trolling. Either way, you aren't very good at it.

 

I agree with this. Even assuming plants do feel pain, it's silly to put them on the same level as animals just as it's silly to put animals on the same level as humans.

 

[Edited to express my points in a cleaner manner.]

[Assume Nothing]

I don't feel like breaking down your argument and addressing things individually, so forgive me, someone else will probably do it.

 

But what I did find at least slightly amusing was the fact that you said this:

 

The weak points of the moral argument is the fact that vegetarians blatantly ignore any possibility of a plant having the right to life (They are indeed living, they respond to stimuli, studies even show they have some sort of nervous system, perhaps even feeling pain)

 

And then to close out your bulletproof argument you said this:

 

You can't compare eating meat to eating your sister or dog. Those aren't farm animals, there is a difference. How you would feel, may not be what the animal feels. And also, question yourself this.

 

It seems like you're implying that farm animals are somehow less human than we are and, in fact, do not have the right to life over my sister or my dog. Yet in the first quote, you are clearly invoking the right to life argument, claiming that vegetarians are the ones that are immoral. Your supposed "facts" are very contradictory, no? Stop playing the Devil's Advocate or stop trolling. Either way, you aren't very good at it.

 

EDIT: Firstly, I would like you to know that I will eat meat butchered on a local, family farm or from a local meat market. Your "quote" is extremely out of context. The prices that are being compared are NOT what it costs to produce the product, only what it costs to buy it from the store. Huge difference there, and some of us are very prepared to pay more for food that is organic. I like to shop at co-ops occasionally (only because they are VERY pricy), and that's two birds with one stone. Local and organic.

 

My post didn't go through. I'll type it again.

 

As for the farm animals thing; I did not say that farm animals have less of a right to life than we have, but to imply that we would feel the same way about being slaughtered is fallacious and unfounded. There is a distinction, I know they can feel something, but not the same.

 

On animal welfare - In the wild, naturally there is predators, and prey. How many sheep do you think can defend themselves from a vicious lion, or tiger?

 

My quote was not out of context, it was referring to the cost of buying it in a supermarket. To get a reasonable portion of packaged 'organic health products' is by far more costly than a package of kippers for a meal.

 

And lastly, branding me a troll really helps your argument, right? Resorting to insults is the last thing I do in a debate. How we feel about vegetarianism, is what we're discussing. There is no need to get emotional over it.

[Assume Nothing]

" I prioritize eating meat over the environment, than animals, than price, than living longer, than food safety (no e.coli mad cow disease etc), and so on."

 

You make a clear distinction between the meat-eaters who've offended you and those who haven't, yet this sentence is aimed at every meat-eater. And you really wonder why people bring up the "holier than thou" thing?

For the most part, that statement is true (even if a bit bitter). Although I might take out the "living longer" portion because that's very subjective and has many other factors aside from diet.

 

He's belittling someone's motives for not wanting to become a vegetarian as if it simply comes down to "you care about meat so much that it will blind you to the point of going against all of these great (which is arguable) reasons".

 

Simply put, eating meat is not my "priority". However, you can say I "prioritize" eating a tastier and more convenient diet over wanting to scrutinize everything I eat to make sure it's void of meat so that I feel like a better person at the end of the day. Actually, I do eat vegetarian dishes all the time, just not on purpose - and I don't feel any more righteous when I do. The main thing is, being an omnivore is pretty much the default choice in our society. The way he worded it, he made it sound like I go out of my way to make sure I get my meat, when really it's the vegetarian who eats based off of their "priorities". I simply eat based off of opportunity - not priorities.

 

Oh and I agree with this.

[i_love_burritos]

The attitude that vegetarians tend to annoy me. To say that eating meat is selfish, is in itself, hypocritical. Have you at some point in your life, used animal products? How can you be sure you haven't?

No. You're also, getting confused between vegetarian and vegan.

 

I can see the logic in this. Why kill one cow which has maybe 100 kilos of meat when you can have many times more milk, cheese, yogurt.

[Assume Nothing]

The attitude that vegetarians tend to annoy me. To say that eating meat is selfish, is in itself, hypocritical. Have you at some point in your life, used animal products? How can you be sure you haven't?

 

No. You're also, getting confused between vegetarian and vegan.

 

I can see the logic in this. Why kill one cow which has maybe 100 kilos of meat when you can have many times more milk, cheese, yogurt.

 

Vegans tend to avoid using animal related products, such as a fur coat or leather handbags, but Vegetarians don't (in general).

[Range_This11]

As for the farm animals thing; I did not say that farm animals have less of a right to life than we have, but to imply that we would feel the same way about being slaughtered is fallacious and unfounded. There is a distinction, I know they can feel something, but not the same.

How could YOU possibly be the judge on something like that? That is a boldface assumption based on no facts.

 

On animal welfare - In the wild, naturally there is predators, and prey. How many sheep do you think can defend themselves from a vicious lion, or tiger?

That is perfectly natural. You know what isn't natural? The concept of industrial farms that raise millions of animals for the sole purpose of slaughtering them. (Again, I will reiterate: I do not have a problem with local, family owned farms or any of the meat that comes from those farms. I grew up in a rural farming community in Wisconsin, so please do not make the mistake of assuming that I am some city slicker who has never seen a cow before)

 

My quote was not out of context, it was referring to the cost of buying it in a supermarket. To get a reasonable portion of packaged 'organic health products' is by far more costly than a package of kippers for a meal.

Okay so maybe it wasn't out of context, now it's just irrelevant. Vegetarians make a conscious choice to not eat meat and I would venture to say that all of us are well aware of the monetary consequences that come along with it. To me, it isn't about the price and I think it's safe to assume most other vegetarians feel the same way. (correct me if I am wrong)

 

And lastly, branding me a troll really helps your argument, right? Resorting to insults is the last thing I do in a debate. How we feel about vegetarianism, is what we're discussing. There is no need to get emotional over it.

I'm not getting emotional about anything. Nothing you say has been backed up by any sort of stats, figures, facts, links (now I know these aren't everything in an argument, but they bring credibility to what you say) and frankly, I'm sick of arguing with a brick wall. It seems that even when presented with glaring evidence to the contrary, you will not falter.

[i_love_burritos]

The attitude that vegetarians tend to annoy me. To say that eating meat is selfish, is in itself, hypocritical. Have you at some point in your life, used animal products? How can you be sure you haven't?

 

No. You're also, getting confused between vegetarian and vegan.

 

I can see the logic in this. Why kill one cow which has maybe 100 kilos of meat when you can have many times more milk, cheese, yogurt.

 

Vegans tend to avoid using animal related products, such as a fur coat or leather handbags, but Vegetarians don't (in general).

 

Yeah. I know. Vegans also don't eat eggs, cheese or drink milk.

[Assume Nothing]

As for the farm animals thing; I did not say that farm animals have less of a right to life than we have, but to imply that we would feel the same way about being slaughtered is fallacious and unfounded. There is a distinction, I know they can feel something, but not the same.

How could YOU possibly be the judge on something like that? That is a boldface assumption based on no facts.

 

On animal welfare - In the wild, naturally there is predators, and prey. How many sheep do you think can defend themselves from a vicious lion, or tiger?

That is perfectly natural. You know what isn't natural? The concept of industrial farms that raise millions of animals for the sole purpose of slaughtering them. (Again, I will reiterate: I do not have a problem with local, family owned farms or any of the meat that comes from those farms. I grew up in a rural farming community in Wisconsin, so please do not make the mistake of assuming that I am some city slicker who has never seen a cow before)

 

My quote was not out of context, it was referring to the cost of buying it in a supermarket. To get a reasonable portion of packaged 'organic health products' is by far more costly than a package of kippers for a meal.

Okay so maybe it wasn't out of context, now it's just irrelevant. Vegetarians make a conscious choice to not eat meat and I would venture to say that all of us are well aware of the monetary consequences that come along with it. To me, it isn't about the price and I think it's safe to assume most other vegetarians feel the same way. (correct me if I am wrong)

 

And lastly, branding me a troll really helps your argument, right? Resorting to insults is the last thing I do in a debate. How we feel about vegetarianism, is what we're discussing. There is no need to get emotional over it.

I'm not getting emotional about anything. Nothing you say has been backed up by any sort of stats, figures, facts, links (now I know these aren't everything in an argument, but they bring credibility to what you say) and frankly, I'm sick of arguing with a brick wall. It seems that even when presented with glaring evidence to the contrary, you will not falter.

 

 

Wasn't there facts and figures posted by Serpent_Eye? I replied to them. I can find facts if you really want, but I've got college.

 

I did remember reading somewhere in tortillachip's post about the price of meat vs the price of vegetables. That factor isn't a significant one since vegetables in itself are quite expensive.

 

I do agree with the point about animals being raised for the sole purpose of being slaughtered, it's not the killing process that I'm worried about.

 

Since neither of us has the facts to back up

 

As for the farm animals thing; I did not say that farm animals have less of a right to life than we have, but to imply that we would feel the same way about being slaughtered is fallacious and unfounded. There is a distinction, I know they can feel something, but not the same.

How could YOU possibly be the judge on something like that? That is a boldface assumption based on no facts.

 

^ that. It is very hard to debate about it. (Would be like Monty Python if you really tried to argue about it, how do you know they -would- feel the same?)

[Assume Nothing]

The attitude that vegetarians tend to annoy me. To say that eating meat is selfish, is in itself, hypocritical. Have you at some point in your life, used animal products? How can you be sure you haven't?

 

No. You're also, getting confused between vegetarian and vegan.

 

I can see the logic in this. Why kill one cow which has maybe 100 kilos of meat when you can have many times more milk, cheese, yogurt.

 

Vegans tend to avoid using animal related products, such as a fur coat or leather handbags, but Vegetarians don't (in general).

 

Yeah. I know. Vegans also don't eat eggs, cheese or drink milk.

 

Veganism is illogical to me, but I don't know why people have those motives, so I haven't really got an argument for that