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Abortion


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#621
Ring_World
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The arguments come down to:

Unborn > born

or

Born > Unborn



Every argument about abortion is supporting either one of these conclusions. Everyone already has their mind set up on which side they agree upon through socialization you have been exposed to throughout your life such as family, religion, education, etc. I think instead of arguing whether or not you think abortion should be legal you should argue about what forces in your life helped you reach the conclusion you have about abortion.

#622
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Thought I'd revive this with a bit of new info.

http://en.wikipedia....ortion_on_Crime

If you're too lazy, it's basically a study that showed legal abortion reduces crime rates starting about 16-20 years after. Anti-abortionists have any thoughts?


The study is bunk.

In November 2005, Federal Reserve Bank of Boston economists Christopher Foote and Christopher Goetz released a working paper, "Testing Economic Hypotheses with State-Level Data: A Comment on Donohue and Levitt (2001).", in which they argued that Donohue and Levitt's study did not estimate the regressions that Donohue and Levitt had claimed that they examined. In particular, Foote and Goetz said that, despite their claims that they had done so, the 2001 Donohue and Levitt study failed to control for influences that varied within a state from year to year (such as the effect of crack-cocaine). Foote and Goetz also point out that Donohue and Levitt accidentally used the total number of arrests, not the arrest rate, to explain the murder rate. Using the total number of arrests does not establish the unwantedness mechanism Donohue and Levitt propose, only that the total number of arrests has changed. After making these two corrections, Foot and Goetz interpreted their results as evidence that violent crime actually increases with more abortions and that property crime is unrelated to abortions. This study received press coverage in The Wall Street Journal[8] and The Economist.[9]


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#623
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If aborting a fetus is a crime itself, ofcourse crime rates go up. It would occur by definition.

For abortion advocates - would you be supportive of your parents aborting you, had they faced the dilemma in the past?

#624
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If aborting a fetus is a crime itself, ofcourse crime rates go up. It would occur by definition.

For abortion advocates - would you be supportive of your parents aborting you, had they faced the dilemma in the past?


I agree if abortion was a crime then all actions of abortion would increase crime rates. However that isnt really an argument one way or the other just a statement of 2 + 2 = 4 :lol:


And if my parents faced this dilemma id be against it, since you know Im consciously able to think of reasons to be against it unlike an embryonic fetus. However lets say I was a child of parents who were facing the dilemma whether to abort or not, and lets say that they never wanted a kid so they didnt love me and lets say they were poor because of economic opportunities lost due to having a kid. This is the story of many kids in poor families who end up joining gangs or lashing out in other violent ways. Would it be better for society?

The real morality stems from the struggle between good for oneself and good for ones society.


Now this isnt an argument either way, but I ask you which scenario is better for society as a whole regardless of what you consider morally correct.

A family that chose when they wanted the kid and when they were best able to financially support that kid or a family who had 1 or potentially many kids when they cant afford it and didnt want the kid?

Id like to point out that you havent argued the fact that a lot of criminals are the results of being unwanted kids born in poverty, so I will assume you agree with that. Please fact this into your decision - morals aside which is better for society.

#625
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If aborting a fetus is a crime itself, ofcourse crime rates go up. It would occur by definition.

For abortion advocates - would you be supportive of your parents aborting you, had they faced the dilemma in the past?


I agree if abortion was a crime then all actions of abortion would increase crime rates. However that isnt really an argument one way or the other just a statement of 2 + 2 = 4 :lol:


And if my parents faced this dilemma id be against it, since you know Im consciously able to think of reasons to be against it unlike an embryonic fetus. However lets say I was a child of parents who were facing the dilemma whether to abort or not, and lets say that they never wanted a kid so they didnt love me and lets say they were poor because of economic opportunities lost due to having a kid. This is the story of many kids in poor families who end up joining gangs or lashing out in other violent ways. Would it be better for society?

The real morality stems from the struggle between good for oneself and good for ones society.


Now this isnt an argument either way, but I ask you which scenario is better for society as a whole regardless of what you consider morally correct.

A family that chose when they wanted the kid and when they were best able to financially support that kid or a family who had 1 or potentially many kids when they cant afford it and didnt want the kid?

Id like to point out that you havent argued the fact that a lot of criminals are the results of being unwanted kids born in poverty, so I will assume you agree with that. Please fact this into your decision - morals aside which is better for society.


Once again: would you put aside your morals for the good of society?

Theoretical example: The planet is quickly on it's way to being vastly overpopulated. It would be grossly beneficial to society if all those starving african children were culled, because they're putting a strain on the world and will never amount to anything anyway. Would you participate in such an event?

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#626
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Not that situation in particular, because they are conscious people. Not fetuses.

And how exactly are they straining the world? If you mean because the world donates money, then that's the world's own doing. Nobody makes us give anything.
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#627
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The arguments come down to:

Unborn > born

or

Born > Unborn


Every argument about abortion is supporting either one of these conclusions. Everyone already has their mind set up on which side they agree upon through socialization you have been exposed to throughout your life such as family, religion, education, etc. I think instead of arguing whether or not you think abortion should be legal you should argue about what forces in your life helped you reach the conclusion you have about abortion.


Almost everything in the world that has no rational or set answer can be boiled down to the second paragraph here, but that solves nothing. Furthermore, the real question surrounding abortion is when a human is considered human - it's not quite as mathematical or two-dimensional as 'Born > Unborn, Born < Unborn ?'.


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#628
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Would you be supportive of your parents aborting you, had they faced the dilemma in the past?


Yes.

#629
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For abortion advocates - would you be supportive of your parents aborting you, had they faced the dilemma in the past?


Oh come on, that's just as loaded as the question, "How would you feel if Hitler's mother wanted an abortion?"

#630
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For abortion advocates - would you be supportive of your parents aborting you, had they faced the dilemma in the past?


Oh come on, that's just as loaded as the question, "How would you feel if Hitler's mother wanted an abortion?"



...Is it bad that I laughed out loud at that?
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#631
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When it comes to things like abortion, I usually avoid taking a definite stance. I am for it if it's logical like safety concerns for the would-be mother or unborn child, but am against irresponsible purposes overall. It's just one of those issues that is seen as black-and-white but is treated like it.

For the record, I grew up in a mostly conservative community with a semi-conservative family, but political stances or religious beliefs didn't seem to affect my stance to one way.

OT: Nom, I kinda chuckled at it myself, so you aren't alone.

EDIT: Forgive me if I wasn't being clear or articulate. I just don't get into these kinds of debates often.

#632
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For abortion advocates - would you be supportive of your parents aborting you, had they faced the dilemma in the past?


Oh come on, that's just as loaded as the question, "How would you feel if Hitler's mother wanted an abortion?"

I think its more like a Buddist dude walking up to you asking how you felt like when your village was wiped out by Genghis Khan.

You have no memory of it because YOU (in your current state by reincarnation) don't have any memory. It's a poor question, a very, very poor question to ever ask.


As for Y-Guy's question over

Once again: would you put aside your morals for the good of society?

I would answer no on the basis morals can be changed. We are trying to convince you to change your morals. If we fail to do so we may call you an idiot but that is in all good-fun argument intentions. :razz:
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#633
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Well there you go. I could just do the same...I'd rather see a society with morals I disagree with than one willing to break whatever morals they have for some warped vision of "common good".

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#634
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For abortion advocates - would you be supportive of your parents aborting you, had they faced the dilemma in the past?


Oh come on, that's just as loaded as the question, "How would you feel if Hitler's mother wanted an abortion?"

I think its more like a Buddist dude walking up to you asking how you felt like when your village was wiped out by Genghis Khan.

You have no memory of it because YOU (in your current state by reincarnation) don't have any memory. It's a poor question, a very, very poor question to ever ask.


Took the words right out of my mouth, I couldn't argue for living since I was a collection of non-sentient cells and I wouldn't feel sad since I couldn't and wouldn't be alive and feel anything at all. Looking at it now as a person non-sentience is a terrifying thought, but since back then I never was it wouldn't bother me.

As for Y-Guy's question over



Once again: would you put aside your morals for the good of society?

I would answer no on the basis morals can be changed. We are trying to convince you to change your morals. If we fail to do so we may call you an idiot but that is in all good-fun argument intentions. :razz:

You're still assuming that I or any pro-lifer consider abortion immoral and we are just ok with looking past it. Read over my other posts again, especially that article titled "Why Abortion is a Moral Choice."

EDIT: Thanks for catching that.

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#635
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Well there you go. I could just do the same...I'd rather see a society with morals I disagree with than one willing to break whatever morals they have for some warped vision of "common good".

It looks like we're both losing then.

You're still assuming that I or any pro-lifer consider abortion immoral and we are just ok with looking past it. Read over my other posts again, especially that article titled "Why Abortion is a Moral Choice." Also your example of the African children makes no sense, since other countries like India and China have far greater populations and countries like America and the UK are a far greater drain on the planet's natural resources.

We're trying to convince each other to look past our morals. We are both loosing.

...and that second sentence is in a completely different thread, in the "Israel makes cancer vaccine" one.
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#636
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Just because I saw sexism mentioned earlier, did you know that-- in the U.S., at least-- where gender differences in abortion attitudes are found, it's typically that men are more approving of abortion than are women, and White men more approving of abortion than any other group. Don't believe me? Go to the GSS website and construct a chart. Where it says row, paste 'ABHLTH ABRAPE ABDEFECT ABPOOR ABSINGLE ABNOMORE ABANY'; where it says column type in 'RACE' and where it says control type in 'SEX'. And now you know (and knowing is half the battle).

Anyway, I've always found the "I'm personally against abortion but I'd never stop you from obtaining one!" chain of logic rather odd. Just how far do said people who use that argument extend it?

#637
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Just because I saw sexism mentioned earlier, did you know that-- in the U.S., at least-- where gender differences in abortion attitudes are found, it's typically that men are more approving of abortion than are women, and White men more approving of abortion than any other group. Don't believe me? Go to the GSS website and construct a chart. Where it says row, paste 'ABHLTH ABRAPE ABDEFECT ABPOOR ABSINGLE ABNOMORE ABANY'; where it says column type in 'RACE' and where it says control type in 'SEX'. And now you know (and knowing is half the battle).

Anyway, I've always found the "I'm personally against abortion but I'd never stop you from obtaining one!" chain of logic rather odd. Just how far do said people who use that argument extend it?


Why is it odd? I find that that viewpoint is very conscientious and well thought out.
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#638
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Just because I saw sexism mentioned earlier, did you know that-- in the U.S., at least-- where gender differences in abortion attitudes are found, it's typically that men are more approving of abortion than are women, and White men more approving of abortion than any other group. Don't believe me? Go to the GSS website and construct a chart. Where it says row, paste 'ABHLTH ABRAPE ABDEFECT ABPOOR ABSINGLE ABNOMORE ABANY'; where it says column type in 'RACE' and where it says control type in 'SEX'. And now you know (and knowing is half the battle).

Anyway, I've always found the "I'm personally against abortion but I'd never stop you from obtaining one!" chain of logic rather odd. Just how far do said people who use that argument extend it?


Why is it odd? I find that that viewpoint is very conscientious and well thought out.

Apply it to other questions of right or wrong and it looks ridiculous.

For example "I'm personally against rape, but I'll never stop you from raping someone!".

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#639
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Just because I saw sexism mentioned earlier, did you know that-- in the U.S., at least-- where gender differences in abortion attitudes are found, it's typically that men are more approving of abortion than are women, and White men more approving of abortion than any other group. Don't believe me? Go to the GSS website and construct a chart. Where it says row, paste 'ABHLTH ABRAPE ABDEFECT ABPOOR ABSINGLE ABNOMORE ABANY'; where it says column type in 'RACE' and where it says control type in 'SEX'. And now you know (and knowing is half the battle).

Anyway, I've always found the "I'm personally against abortion but I'd never stop you from obtaining one!" chain of logic rather odd. Just how far do said people who use that argument extend it?


Why is it odd? I find that that viewpoint is very conscientious and well thought out.


Obfuscator beat me to it. It's neither a conscientious nor well thought out argument. If you can use the "personally-opposed-to-but-legal-for-others-to-engage-in" line of reasoning for abortion, then why not apply it equally to things such as rape, murder, theft, beating your wife or even owning a slave? That is, you argue that while they all might be and probably are moral wrongs, they should be a choice allowed for people to freely engage in if they so choose. After all, that would be valuing "choice" and, by extension, liberty. Of course, such an argument wouldn't be deemed valid, but why not? Why would the "personally opposed to" argument not work for the aforementioned issues but be considered valid in regards to abortion? When, where and under what circumstances can that argument be invoked and when can it not be?

BTW> Just before it's inevitably mentions, "Because the law says it's legal!" is not a valid justification, as I don't care what the law says, as the law does not dictate what is right and wrong and what should or shouldn't be allowed, rather just what is and isn't allowed or what one can and cannot do.

#640
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You might be against the use of birth control, but does that automatically mean you should want to make it illegal? You might think it's wrong to drink beer or have sex, so you must want them to be illegal, right? No. It means that you think people should be allowed to choose for themselves regardless of how you feel about it. They probably don't feel the same way about rape however, seeing as rape has no medical benefits and there is no taking away of anyone's rights if they aren't allowed to rape (in the case of rape, the woman loses the rights to decide what happens to her body, same as with illegalized abortion). So rape, murder, and abuse are not the same as abortion, and the reasoning can't be applied to them.
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