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Tip.It times - 3rd October 2010


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#21
Earth_Poet
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At the heart of the Efficiency Wars is name calling, huh.

I'll buy it. I suppose that's at the heart of almost every war.
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#22
RaudhrGarm
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The efficiency article: Very true, I don't play RS for grinding, I play for fun.

Unfortunately, my main source of fun in RuneScape is partaking in quests. The quest this month (The conclusion to the Void Knight series) and the conclusion to the Mysteries of the Mahjarrat series will both require large grinding on my part, something I find nearly impossible to do, and usually detracts from the fun of the quest.

/meaningless post.

#23
1337_Byte
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I agree with you RaudhrGarm. Quests shouldn't require any skills except combat. Most of the time it feels like the skills are included in 1 part of the quest just so players would have to grind more.
  

#24
PereGrin
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What, the only thing that actually makes me skill at all (besides herblore) is quests! My total level would fail miserably if I didn't have to keep getting it up for quests. Like now, I'm going to have to work on RC again, if I want to finish up the diaries. Not my favorite thing to do, but I appreciate the fact that the game is well rounded, and not completely biased for one specific type of person.

If everyone who played RS was the same, then I would get bored, and most likely leave to play something else.

Keep the diversity :thumbup:

#25
1337_Byte
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Skills should be something players do for fun, not as requirements for quests.
  

#26
Obtaurian
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A huge +1 to everything PereGrin said. I don't think there's a whole lot more to add to that. Racheya's article completely missed the mark, to say the least. The so-called "efficient" players are some of the most heavily bashed and trolled on these forums. Given previous posts of hers, I can't say that I'm surprised that she's written such a ridiculous, one-sided article that has no basis in reality.

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To put it bluntly, [bleep] off.


#27
Peregrine
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Quotes from the Times.

Then you have the second type, and perhaps the most important type being discussed in this article, the high level. I’m going to include people who have certain goals to reach high levels in this category too. These are players that want their skills in the 90’s or even 99. They’re usually interested in playing efficiently, making money and aiming to reach their lofty goals. ... What sort of player is stereotypically anti-efficiency? What sort of player is stereotypically pro-efficiency? I’m sure you can guess.


I'd just like to say that in my own personal opinion, anyone who trains a skill past level 99 for the reason of gaining hiscores is not efficient. Efficiency is about saving time now so you can have more fun later. That doesn't mean you can't have fun while being efficient. Unless you're training skills such as Slayer, getting exp unconsciously with Effigies, moneymaking via training, or you have a deep fear that Jagex is raising the skill limit to 120 (God forbid), you shouldn't be training past 99. There is nothing that allows you to have more fun above 99.

Well… no. I’ve said this enough times to make you all sick of it by now, but I’ll say it again. Playing Runescape for fun is the most important thing. It’s the fundamental reason why we started playing this game and I hope that it’s why we continue to play it. I hate to think that people are continuing to play just because they feel that they have to get high levels, rather than because they genuinely feel that they enjoy the game. Although, I think that many people decide to quit or take it easy before reaching the point where they ‘burn out’.


I'd like to get a general response on these questions.

If Runescape was single-player...
  • Would you play it?
  • If so, what parts would you play?
  • Would any goals you have now be changed?

I believe if one answers these questions truthfully, they can find out if they really do enjoy 'training a skill casually/efficiently' or not. Are you really enjoying the skill? Or are you enjoying the community while training the skill?

---

I also agree with PereGrin, and @Obt: I think we're also pretty good trolls too. :P

Rant


#28
Troacctid
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The efficiency article: Very true, I don't play RS for grinding, I play for fun.

Pretty much the whole point of efficiency is to do as little grinding as possible. :ugeek:

#29
xxshady
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The efficiency article: Very true, I don't play RS for grinding, I play for fun.

Unfortunately, my main source of fun in RuneScape is partaking in quests. The quest this month (The conclusion to the Void Knight series) and the conclusion to the Mysteries of the Mahjarrat series will both require large grinding on my part, something I find nearly impossible to do, and usually detracts from the fun of the quest.

/meaningless post.


Not meaningless at all. You pretty much described one of the main aspects of Runescape's bad game design.

But seriously, there is no reason why I should have to cut ~3.7k logs just so I can attain a certain level so I can start a quest. I want to play the fun parts of Runescape without the grind. If I want to talk with the community, I'll hop on Skype/MSM, where my friends are. Jagex, if you want to make Runescape more community focused, make the game less based on the need to be efficient (Training hunter with someone else in 'your spot' reduces exp), and more based on community activities like minigames and potentially group-quests. Eliminate grinding. Buy minecraft, add it to Runescape and don't ruin [minecraft]. Actually, don't make the game more community focused, I'm really not that big a fan of the Triumvirate. Make the content more community focused.

:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:
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#30
Hegelstad
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After reading the first article I were reminded once again of how fun Runescape was back in 2004-2006, we did what we thought was the most fun with our mates and it was a community of relaxing in game. Today it's way to many hasty players that has no time for a chat or to do something a lil' way different. But i guess it's just the way a game evolves when more and more players reach the higher levels. A natural grow.

Btw to the one speaking of minecraft. It OWNS!!! lols, i got this great map with huuuge caverns. I bet i have been exploring them for 3 days in game play and they only grow larger and larger! And i like the concept of not needing so much grinding done to do the fun stuff!

My lame drops:
6 Effigys
1 D Med - 1 D Dagger
1 Verac's Helmet - 1 Guthan's Platebody


#31
Crit2h
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Bah I have to say no to Racheya. Lol.

Anyway, playing that soothes the mind and makes one feel that he/she has enjoyed the game = Play.

Efficiently playing is just something called " Must catch up with the rest " playing style. While I personally did play rather efficiently sometimes in the past, I find the grinding as boring (not a form of enjoyment).

I enjoy training a few particular skills, other than that, the rest that are grinding (are not playing to me).

Efficient playing is just something I would regard as, a rather meaningless form of gameplay if you don't enjoy the process/skill that you are training.

Your character shouldn't control your gameplay, you should play your own style. Don't be the slave of the game. Play well, enjoy yourself.




Yeah, like that zaryte bow
wait

recharge costs = ammo.

So, all melee weapons are overpowered, at least.

this combat triangle finally makes sense...


#32
AirWales
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Efficiency article: very interesting subject. Thanks for giving me a good read, pretty much agreed with everything said :thumbup:

#33
Kalafai
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Minority Report: in Runescape!

I never did see the end of that movie... didn't it turn out the seers wanted him to take down the system, so set him up?

#34
Troacctid
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While I personally did play rather efficiently sometimes in the past, I find the grinding as boring (not a form of enjoyment).

But, again, the efficient playstyle is all about doing less grinding, not more. It's about the minimum amount of grinding required to achieve your goal.

#35
Jonanananas
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I see there is a discussiong starting here, and I must say it's very similar to another there was about an Article by Racheya. I can't find it atm, but it also started out with a discussion on a thread in the Tip.it forums, with an article by Racheye which many felt was an answer to the thread and bashing of their opinions. Unlike the last time though, I tend to stick to those arguing against the point of the article.

First of all, I don't see how being efficient or caring about efficiency has anything to do with having less fun. What Racheya is talking about is people caring about levels, ranks and achievements. That may be related to efficiency but is not the core of it. Face it, you have to grind at some parts in Runescape if you want to access certain content. I don't see how minimizing this time is reducing your fun, that's just utterly pointless.


Also, the last Paragraphs really do imply that it's a relatively common standard for efficiency "freaks" to look down upon others, and although I'd only partly count myself into that group, I do find it insulting. If it was not intended you have to watch out more in your writing.


If we take the name calling away from the article and distract efficiency from caring about ranks and achievements - we're back at the old article about fun in runescape which was written, what, about 6 times now?



The fictional was enjoyable, I'm looking forward to more =)

#36
Ts_Stormrage
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You know...
I WAS goign to ask here to have someone explain to me why the discussion is seemlingly endless when it comes to No Lifers vs Just Doing Whats Neccisary vs Just Here To Have Fun...

And then it hit me; we ALL fall into each one of these catergories at one point or another in our RS careers, so we all debate the different points of view... It's simply never going to settle, at least not untill Jagex just gives everyone 99s in everything...

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CLICK IT!


#37
Guest_jrhairychest_
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Never quite got the reasons some people actually play this game if they find doing things 'a grind'. Play something else if it feels that way because you're obviously not enjoying it. Problem solved.

#38
Assume Nothing
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I have more fun by playing efficiently than playing inefficiently. As said before in this thread, some people actually like levelling faster. What's wrong with that...?

#39
stonewall337
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Racheya ONCE AGAIN showing her lack of logic skills. Please just stop with all the fallicies, if you wish to retain any semblance of both impartiality (which personally I think you've blown) and reasoning ability. I'll post a myriad of examples later.

1.) What your definition is, is actually rather irrelevant. If you are going to write an article about a subject, you need to find out what the REAL, or ACCEPTED definition is. Going by the timing, and content of your article, I will assume that it was written at least in part in answer to the "efficiency" thread on TIF. As such, you really need to use a GOOD definition of efficiency, which was stated numerous times as gp/xp/time. I can argue any side quite easily if I mis define the terms which the other side is using, part of the reason why in debate one of the first things done is to define the terms in the resolution, as well as other common terms to be used.

2.)

"Let’s face it: Runescape is mostly about the grind, the rote repetition of clicking the same things over and over."

You say you aren't getting into whether or not this is a good/bad thing, and yet your whole tone is to imply that it IS bad. There are numerous ways you could (and should) have written this, to retain your objectivity.

3.)

This usually involves a lot of calculations with XP per hour, cost per XP and estimated times to reach a goal. Not everyone bothers with the number crunching beforehand, some just get as many resources as they vaguely figure would be enough, then go and do whatever method of training it is

BULL [cabbage]. The math for most efficiency factors takes seconds, simple as calculating potion gp/xp, etc. Heck, even figuring out defender Vs DFS is as simple as comparing the stats.

4.)

Playing Runescape for fun is the most important thing.

You continue to assume that efficiency is IMPOSSIBLE to attain, without being bored. SIMPLY NOT TRUE.

I hate to think that people are continuing to play just because they feel that they have to get high levels, rather than because they genuinely feel that they enjoy the game.

Citation needed to prove this is true of efficient players.

5.)

This ‘average player’ is someone that plays Runescape maybe an hour or two a day. They often play it with friends and are what Jagex would consider an ‘average player’ to be: usually fairly balanced, typical stats with not many high levels

Citation needed. In fact, Jagex expressly said that RS was geared for adults. It has been my experience, as an adult gamer, that more adult gamers are goal oriented then their younger counterparts. I can't prove it scientifically, but then again I'm not claiming what is "average" without anything to back up my stance.

6.)

Of course, I’m only speaking in stereotypes right now. Every player is unique, have their own way of playing the game and, I hope, enjoying Runescape. However, Stereotypes play a big part in the Efficiency wars. What sort of player is stereotypically anti-efficiency? What sort of player is stereotypically pro-efficiency? I’m sure you can guess.

What the hell does this mean? So you admit that, although you are limiting all RS players to one of three categories, they are only stereotypes? That somewhat destroys your whole argument.

7)

It’s true that many players find efficiency and reaching high levels to be genuinely fun, they enjoy getting the xp and racking up the high scores, there’s nothing wrong with that. However the thing that IS wrong is when these extremely efficient players that see themselves as ‘elite’ start to call people who don’t use the most efficient methods… noobs.

Why? Because you say so? I am better, in stats, gear, bank, and experience, then 95%+ of the RS population, there can be no debate about that. So, am I not one of the more "elite" players? Pretty sure most of the max players would consider themselves far more "elite". In fact MAYBE YOU SHOULD DEFINE ELITE. The definition of elite is, among other things, "The best or most skilled members of a group". Hmm. Guess I AM elite.

8.)

the idea that being efficient makes you fundamentally better than other players

It does, according to my style of play. I am an achievement player. Making, meeting, and exceeding goals is what I play for, in large part. If I achieve more, for less, in a shorter amount of time, then other players, I AM better, by definition. The definition of Better is, among other things: To surpass or exceed, More highly skilled or adept, More useful, suitable, or desirable. Hmm. Once again, I am better in the game. This has nothing to do with my real life standing, my "worth", etc.

9.)

And where do I stand on this matter? Well, I think after much discussion on this topic I’ve come to the conclusion that the best way to play is however you want to

Do you really mean this? So, you are for allowing anything, as long as it is in the rules? I should hold you to this. From now on, you have NO excuse to complain against anything which is within RS rules, and Jagex ToS. No more complaining about 76k'ers, rushers, etc.

10.

I think that if you’re enjoying yourself, then you’re playing as efficiently as you need to be.

Wrong term again, you mean effective. Efficient means: functioning or producing effectively and with the least waste of effort; competent. Effective means: Acting directly to produce an effect. If you had said effective, you would have been correct.

Stonewall337.png

Drops

#40
AnneFrank
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Let’s face it: Runescape is mostly about the grind, the rote repetition of clicking the same things over and over. Without getting into whether this is a good or bad thing, it’s still a fact. By the time you reach fairly mid-level gameplay, it becomes obvious that Runescape is just a sequence of clicking, moving, banking, eating… just in different patterns depending on what skill.

Sounds like real life.

Then you have the second type, and perhaps the most important type being discussed in this article, the high level. I’m going to include people who have certain goals to reach high levels in this category too. These are players that want their skills in the 90’s or even 99. They’re usually interested in playing efficiently, making money and aiming to reach their lofty goals. They tend to make up a very big part of fansites, but not the full player base. This means that they’re often overrepresented on fansites, giving people and themselves a mistaken idea of what the demography of Runescape is really like.

Erm let's see
I have goals of going for 'high levels'.
But i am not interested in playing the game efficiently.
Anywho.... they tend to make up a very big part of fan sites???
Where did you get that information from? I see a mixed of pkers/'efficenty freaks/'trolls'/lurkers/ and more on fan sites. (Tip it)

I honestly believe you only said that is because your are the so called 'low levels, less productive.
Just a way to bash the efficient people.


There are many, many other types of players, but the third I’m going to name is the one that plays for ‘typical fun’. I use the name ‘typical fun’ to mean, activities that most players would usually consider to be fun. Playing minigames, Dungeoneering with friends and going to fansite events – you might find a typical fun player doing these sort of things. They might have a mixture of levels, depending on what skills they enjoy and which they don’t. If they don’t like a skill, they won’t train it often unless they really need to so that they can do something they think will be fun.

Playing mini games?Could be fun.
For me it is.
But that's not the point.
What is fun ?it's a [bleep]ing opinion.

Speak for yourself.
For you playing mini games/dung with friends and going to fan sites?
That's TYPICAL FUN FOR YOU.
Everyone's fun/fancy is different.
Some people like to be super efficient.
Some people rather just do random stuff.
The listen goes on.




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