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Tip.It times - 3rd October 2010


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#41
Assume Nothing
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I barely glanced through the article. But I do agree with you on that mostly, how long did it take you to write that response?

#42
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I barely glanced through the article. But I do agree with on mostly, how long did it take you to write that response?


Around 10 minutes.

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#43
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#44
Assume Nothing
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I barely glanced through the article. But I do agree with on mostly, how long did it take you to write that response?


Around 10 minutes.


Hmm. Interesting

#45
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I liked the fiction, looking forward to seeing where it's going. :thumbsup:

#46
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Skills should be something players do for fun, not as requirements for quests.


Using that same logic, Jagex should also remove combat requirements and all hard monsters, because that requires lots of grinding combat and making money to buy good weapons and food that's no fun at all either. <_<

"But wait," you reply, "combat is lots of fun!" Perhaps, but lots of people like skilling too and maybe don't like combat as much. Jagex isn't going to change the system just because you don't want to do skills. If you don't want to grind skills and can't find a fun way to level them, then don't level them so you can do quests. This is the whole point of Runescape: You're not required to do any particular thing to enjoy the game.
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#47
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Racheya ONCE AGAIN showing her lack of logic skills. Please just stop with all the fallicies, if you wish to retain any semblance of both impartiality ....


Since when are opinion essays supposed to be unbiased? Tip It Times has features and editorials, it doesn't report the news.

Seriously, people need to stop criticizing articles on the merit of bias. Saying "that's your opinion" is quite possibly the most meaningless criticism you could ever make to someone, because literally everything could be construed as an opinion.
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#48
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Racheya ONCE AGAIN showing her lack of logic skills. Please just stop with all the fallicies, if you wish to retain any semblance of both impartiality ....


Since when are opinion essays supposed to be unbiased? Tip It Times has features and editorials, it doesn't report the news.

Seriously, people need to stop criticizing articles on the merit of bias. Saying "that's your opinion" is quite possibly the most meaningless criticism you could ever make to someone, because literally everything could be construed as an opinion.


When it's presented as fact, it is in a position where it can be argued against. And facts aren't opinion, facts are facts, so no, not everything can be 'construed' (wtf does that mean) as opinion.

#49
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Racheya ONCE AGAIN showing her lack of logic skills. Please just stop with all the fallicies, if you wish to retain any semblance of both impartiality ....


Since when are opinion essays supposed to be unbiased? Tip It Times has features and editorials, it doesn't report the news.

Seriously, people need to stop criticizing articles on the merit of bias. Saying "that's your opinion" is quite possibly the most meaningless criticism you could ever make to someone, because literally everything could be construed as an opinion.

It's not written as opinion. Racheya's article purports to speak for multiple groups of players, not just herself.

#50
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Racheya ONCE AGAIN showing her lack of logic skills. Please just stop with all the fallicies, if you wish to retain any semblance of both impartiality ....


Since when are opinion essays supposed to be unbiased? Tip It Times has features and editorials, it doesn't report the news.

Seriously, people need to stop criticizing articles on the merit of bias. Saying "that's your opinion" is quite possibly the most meaningless criticism you could ever make to someone, because literally everything could be construed as an opinion.

It's not written as opinion. Racheya's article purports to speak for multiple groups of players, not just herself.

Which is my point. If she had written it with her stance clearly stated at the start, telling why she stood there, etc, it would lend her the credibility her current worded stance fails to provide.

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#51
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Only great way to write the first article is with two authors.

Racheya is clearly on one side of the fence, despite her purported neutrality, and incapable of fairly representing both sides.

#52
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Racheya ONCE AGAIN showing her lack of logic skills.... and reasoning ability....


Okay, seriously. I see your point and everything, but enough with the insults. Saying the author is wrong is one thing, but stating that author lacks logic skills is NOT the best way to show that you are expressing your opinion, however valid, POLITELY and CONSTRUCTIVELY, about the article. Sorry about that, annoyance showing through there.

Anyway. Personally, I think that the problem with writing about these sorts of subjects is that while they may be good for discussion, that discussion tends to become rather heated. The subject of effinciency is so controversial because not only do people think different things are efficent, they also have different definitions for efficency. For example, Player A might that effinciency is the fastest possible way, but Player B might think that effiicient methods are those that he/she enjoys, and which therefore are more pleasant to grind out, making it seem to go by faster. This is not the best example, but it's late, and I'm not very verbose at the moment.

Fictional was good. Can't wait to see part 3!
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#53
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Racheya ONCE AGAIN showing her lack of logic skills.... and reasoning ability....


Okay, seriously. I see your point and everything, but enough with the insults. Saying the author is wrong is one thing, but stating that author lacks logic skills is NOT the best way to show that you are expressing your opinion, however valid, POLITELY and CONSTRUCTIVELY, about the article. Sorry about that, annoyance showing through there.

there is no right way

nothing will change because the times is basically a circle jerk of friends who refuse to listen to criticism

#54
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Racheya ONCE AGAIN showing her lack of logic skills.... and reasoning ability....


Okay, seriously. I see your point and everything, but enough with the insults. Saying the author is wrong is one thing, but stating that author lacks logic skills is NOT the best way to show that you are expressing your opinion, however valid, POLITELY and CONSTRUCTIVELY, about the article. Sorry about that, annoyance showing through there.

there is no right way

nothing will change because the times is basically a circle jerk of friends who refuse to listen to criticism

Racheya said she wanted constructive criticism a couple articles back and now we're dishing it out. It just seems people don't like criticism, part of that is telling the author things they don't want to hear. I actually agree with you though so maybe they will use the criticism to improve further articles.

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#55
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Don't tell me I haven't read the three preceding pages of responses, I know that.

"Yes, noob is hardly the most insulting term you could call someone, but it’s the idea behind it that matters, rather than the actual name-calling - the idea that being efficient makes you fundamentally better than other players. Yes, you may have more xp and higher levels than that player, but that doesn’t make you ‘better’ in any other way than stats."

Unfortunately, (for me, at least) the term "noob" refers to one who is in some way less experienced at something than the speaker. In this case, one with lower stats is definitively a noob to one with higher stats. Yet, as pointed out in the article, this higher levelled person can be a noob at SC or Dungeoneering. So, I find the condemnation of the label of noob being applied to inefficient players not very stable or well-supported.
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#56
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#57
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Racheya ONCE AGAIN showing her lack of logic skills. Please just stop with all the fallicies, if you wish to retain any semblance of both impartiality (which personally I think you've blown) and reasoning ability. I'll post a myriad of examples later.

1.) What your definition is, is actually rather irrelevant. If you are going to write an article about a subject, you need to find out what the REAL, or ACCEPTED definition is. Going by the timing, and content of your article, I will assume that it was written at least in part in answer to the "efficiency" thread on TIF. As such, you really need to use a GOOD definition of efficiency, which was stated numerous times as gp/xp/time. I can argue any side quite easily if I mis define the terms which the other side is using, part of the reason why in debate one of the first things done is to define the terms in the resolution, as well as other common terms to be used.

2.)

"Let’s face it: Runescape is mostly about the grind, the rote repetition of clicking the same things over and over."

You say you aren't getting into whether or not this is a good/bad thing, and yet your whole tone is to imply that it IS bad. There are numerous ways you could (and should) have written this, to retain your objectivity.

3.)

This usually involves a lot of calculations with XP per hour, cost per XP and estimated times to reach a goal. Not everyone bothers with the number crunching beforehand, some just get as many resources as they vaguely figure would be enough, then go and do whatever method of training it is

BULL [cabbage]. The math for most efficiency factors takes seconds, simple as calculating potion gp/xp, etc. Heck, even figuring out defender Vs DFS is as simple as comparing the stats.

4.)

Playing Runescape for fun is the most important thing.

You continue to assume that efficiency is IMPOSSIBLE to attain, without being bored. SIMPLY NOT TRUE.

I hate to think that people are continuing to play just because they feel that they have to get high levels, rather than because they genuinely feel that they enjoy the game.

Citation needed to prove this is true of efficient players.

5.)

This ‘average player’ is someone that plays Runescape maybe an hour or two a day. They often play it with friends and are what Jagex would consider an ‘average player’ to be: usually fairly balanced, typical stats with not many high levels

Citation needed. In fact, Jagex expressly said that RS was geared for adults. It has been my experience, as an adult gamer, that more adult gamers are goal oriented then their younger counterparts. I can't prove it scientifically, but then again I'm not claiming what is "average" without anything to back up my stance.

6.)

Of course, I’m only speaking in stereotypes right now. Every player is unique, have their own way of playing the game and, I hope, enjoying Runescape. However, Stereotypes play a big part in the Efficiency wars. What sort of player is stereotypically anti-efficiency? What sort of player is stereotypically pro-efficiency? I’m sure you can guess.

What the hell does this mean? So you admit that, although you are limiting all RS players to one of three categories, they are only stereotypes? That somewhat destroys your whole argument.

7)

It’s true that many players find efficiency and reaching high levels to be genuinely fun, they enjoy getting the xp and racking up the high scores, there’s nothing wrong with that. However the thing that IS wrong is when these extremely efficient players that see themselves as ‘elite’ start to call people who don’t use the most efficient methods… noobs.

Why? Because you say so? I am better, in stats, gear, bank, and experience, then 95%+ of the RS population, there can be no debate about that. So, am I not one of the more "elite" players? Pretty sure most of the max players would consider themselves far more "elite". In fact MAYBE YOU SHOULD DEFINE ELITE. The definition of elite is, among other things, "The best or most skilled members of a group". Hmm. Guess I AM elite.

8.)

the idea that being efficient makes you fundamentally better than other players

It does, according to my style of play. I am an achievement player. Making, meeting, and exceeding goals is what I play for, in large part. If I achieve more, for less, in a shorter amount of time, then other players, I AM better, by definition. The definition of Better is, among other things: To surpass or exceed, More highly skilled or adept, More useful, suitable, or desirable. Hmm. Once again, I am better in the game. This has nothing to do with my real life standing, my "worth", etc.

9.)

And where do I stand on this matter? Well, I think after much discussion on this topic I’ve come to the conclusion that the best way to play is however you want to

Do you really mean this? So, you are for allowing anything, as long as it is in the rules? I should hold you to this. From now on, you have NO excuse to complain against anything which is within RS rules, and Jagex ToS. No more complaining about 76k'ers, rushers, etc.

10.

I think that if you’re enjoying yourself, then you’re playing as efficiently as you need to be.

Wrong term again, you mean effective. Efficient means: functioning or producing effectively and with the least waste of effort; competent. Effective means: Acting directly to produce an effect. If you had said effective, you would have been correct.


Really gotta disagree with #3 there. Your contradiction implies EVERY SINGLE PLAYER spends the time to calculate gp/exp. THAT is simply "not true." Actually, so it saying that the calculations are easy - some people find math harder then others, lack the innate mathematical ability that makes it simply, or could be too young to be good at it yet. Or, on that note, mentally disabled.

And frankly, people could just be too lazy. Back in pre-GE days, if you spent enough at Camelot, you'd probably wander into someone wondering what 1k flax is worth at 100gp. Yeah.

#7. I think the fact she was getting at is, although you may be elite, that doesn't mean you look-down and insullt people who aren't as "elite" as you.

#9. Mostly good points, except for 76k'ers. Frankly, the only real reason that 76k'ing isn't against the rules is that there is no bureaucratic way to enforce anti-76k'ing, because the line between 76k'ing and not can be very blurry. The concept of wearing 76k and having another person kill you so they can profit, or vice-versa, is actually against the spirit of the game and frowned upon by Jagex last I checked; but like I said, it's not enforceable.

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#58
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Are you just arguing for the sake of argument? Stonewall was giving criticism, that isn't a bad thing. His "opinions" are to help Racheya's writing, even the best of articles can be criticized.

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#59
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#60
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Are you just arguing for the sake of argument? Stonewall was giving criticism, that isn't a bad thing. His "opinions" are to help Racheya's writing, even the best of articles can be criticized.


I disagree. Stonewall's argument was mostly about semantics, and occasionally irrelevant to the topic of the article. Besides, discussion is allowed which means even criticism can be criticized.


#7. I think the fact she was getting at is, although you may be elite, that doesn't mean you look-down and insullt people who aren't as "elite" as you.


I'm fairly certain Racheya meant elitist, not elite.

#9. Mostly good points, except for 76k'ers. Frankly, the only real reason that 76k'ing isn't against the rules is that there is no bureaucratic way to enforce anti-76k'ing, because the line between 76k'ing and not can be very blurry. The concept of wearing 76k and having another person kill you so they can profit, or vice-versa, is actually against the spirit of the game and frowned upon by Jagex last I checked; but like I said, it's not enforceable.


Stonewall didn't read the very next sentence in the article. In fact, he managed to pull several quotes out of context.
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