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Tip.It Times: October 10


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#81
SirHartlar
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Anyone that writes an article has to be able to take criticism, people won't always like what they read. If it's flaming then the mods need to do their jobs and remove the posts.

Unfortunately, spewing logical sounding crap isnt constituted as breaking a rule, nor the level of criticism I'd like to read here... It's some people's version of Glenn Beck's "I'm only asking the question!"...


If it was really that illogical surely you wouldn't get upset about it because you know in your heart of hearts they are wrong? It is a bit rich for the staff of the Times to hit out at people that are posting negative things and calling them petty when they are being just that.

Actually I would get upset, because not only is the illogical-ness of it infecting the rest of the community (have epople not recently shouted that the commnity is in the toilet?), but when people proceed to insult the writers personally, the line has been crossed...
And I have every right to call a turd a turd, even if that turd can speak :)


Obviously I can understand that as a writer getting unfounded criticism would be frustrating, but personally I would just take the view that these people are trolling and refer to the expression 'do not feed the trolls'. Calling them names and stooping to that level doesn't exactly help your situation.

#82
Ts_Stormrage
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I must not have read that sign :(
Oh well, call me Troll slayer :)

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#83
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Maybe SOME people shouldn't be criticising voluntairly written articles by a standard of thesis writers?

Like it or not, this is the best the community has to offer, cuz noone sane enough would want to write month after month and then proceed to listen to your [cabbage]storm :)

In other words, "Our articles suck, but it's okay because we have very low standards." :shades:

#84
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And Soma2035... Just because we cannot prove how many quest capes are out there, doesn't mean the author can not asume quests are not popular... I can make an argument of "Just because you dont liek quests... etc", but I wont... Quests are, considering the amount of feedback on the official forums, at least as popular as any skill is... The difference is that once you complete a quest, you can never do it again, and skills simply dont dissapear...

We will probably disagree on that, which is fine by me, but continuing to state that this "asumption" validates any and all mud slung at the author, is simply wrong...


I'm not saying quests are unpopular. What I'm saying is that the reasoning he uses isn't necessarily accurate. Yes, there is a lot of feedback on the official forums about quests. From my experience, most of this information pertains to either help with the quest itself, or the rewards. This doesn't point to quests being popular for being the core story, this points towards people wanting to get the damn things done for the rewards. Or, not doing them, because the reward isn't satisfactory.

My point is that statements like the one which I quoted shows the author hasn't really put much time and effort into it. I don't care how many quest capes there are, but the author shouldn't make the assumption that everyone hates mini-games. I know people who still go down to the Burthrope Games Room. I know people who genuinely enjoy the chaos and pointlessness of Soul Wars. I'm not saying that I'm in the majority, but I think it's a little arrogant for the author to automatically assume he is.

It's not about one assumption. It's a string of them - a presumptuous and slightly arrogant writing style that makes the article itself come off as being antagonistic and unreasonable. I'm not even targeting the opinion presented here, because I personally have had thoughts that Jagex recently has been forcing people to play in certain ways. I just feel that the writing itself is poor - wide sweeping assumptions like "no one likes pest control" create the impression that the author is an indignant and ignorant player who believes he's right and everyone agrees.

#85
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Thats very well paraphrased :)

I would put it more like this, though:

Some of our articles may suck, we are only volunteers, so please do not expect all articles to be top notch every single week...

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#86
Misterknowitall
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At the forefront of popularity are the quests Jagex rolls out. Long considered the “core” or “main story” of the Gielinor experience, quests have been inextricably linked to the real background your character develops, and the personality he or she carries around. Jagex promotes this popularity with the oft-desired quest cape; an item that they promise will become more and more exclusive over time, as the challenge to acquire this becomes ever more daunting.


This itself was incredibly disturbing to me. Quests were at the forefront of popularity? What population is this based on? I have long since hated quests for the incredibly poor storytelling and role-playing aspects. Personality? Your character's personality changes every quest. Your character's actions are depressingly uncharacteristic of the character you actually play.

One of the biggest examples of this is the Blood Runs Deep quest. This quest was literally ridiculous in how bad the storytelling was. Let's start with the rescue. Wait a moment, why are we escorting him through the caves again? There's these handy little spells that let me teleport other people. Not only that, but in the quest that's required for Blood Runs Deep, we saw these spells being applied in this way - to rescue someone in danger. Why can't we do this now? Because Jagex wants to force an encounter with Asgard at the end. Obviously the area is not teleport proofed, because I can teleport just fine. It's not a teleport block, else we could just wait it out.

Fastforward a bit in the quest. Now we're about to take on a bunch of Dagannoths... and there are volunteers to help me with the Dagannoth Kings. The same Dagannoth Kings which should be dead, as I've lost count of how many times I've killed them. The same Dagannoth Kings that I can take on, all at once, without breaking a sweat. Seriously, I have a 5-0 record with the king of the Fight Caves. I've taken down the Nomad with a third of my supplies left, without using a beast of burden to carry more. And what's more? I'm invincible. I forgot all my equipment during one of the earlier quests in the spirit realm with Baba Yaga. I died, and came back moments later. No big deal. Why do I need help, again?

This is the poor story-telling you experience in a game where Jagex's options are limited. They CAN'T create dozens of scenarios for every situation. Remember While Guthix Sleeps? "Hey, I'm sorry I killed your guys before, I'm on your side now, so trust me!" There's no option to work with Lucien. There's no option to leave it all alone and see how things turn out. And again, a bunch of characters throw their lives away to save someone who's invincible.

I'm not blaming Jagex for this. Most other MMOs experience similar failings, because you can't really tell a story that's suitable to how your varied player base plays this game. But at the same time, many players regard quests as gimmicky click sequences. You click on the right thing, at the right time, with the right items in your inventory. Splash a little combat in for good measure. Add a reward of experience points and exclusive items.

I'm not holding this to the standard of a thesis writer. I just feel that when an author makes such huge presumptions with no source, and little evidence, he deserves any criticism leveled his way because of it.

Hell, your character's personality isn't even consistent during certain storylines. Unless you feel that your character is a disciple of Guthix and acts accordingly (true, or rather, chaotic neutral), personality is more or less absent.

Even though I enjoy quests and the storylines, I know A LOT of people who think otherwise and just do quests for the rewards. A lot of things said in this article feel like the writer didn't do a lot of research. It's really just a big "take that" to minigames in general, with little to no positive things. It's rather depressing, really.

#87
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Hell, your character's personality isn't even consistent during certain storylines. Unless you feel that your character is a disciple of Guthix and acts accordingly (true, or rather, chaotic neutral), personality is more or less absent.

It's typical for a video game character to act as a blank slate onto whom the player can project his or her own personality--hence why so many heroes in RPGs are silent.

#88
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Nah, I'm going to leave the limits of where criticism ends and where flaming begins up to the mods ;)

Btw, what has Obama or american politics to do with this? Not only can you not write, but have you forgotten to read as well?
I mentioned Glenn Beck and Fox news to make a comparrisson to how you act in this community, mainly on this thread... Your personal political views dont interest me...


It was an illustration. No illustration will fit any situation perfectly. That is all. You, once again, read into things, and missed the point.

I would also like to point out several things:

1.) I'd expect more from a member of the staff then from any other user, especially in refraining from the same conduct which they are accusing others of.

2.) The ONLY VOLUNTEERS excuse is just an excuse. Ask others if you need articles, or don't publish a poor article. As someone who has done volunteer work numerous times, that excuse doesn't normally hold much water. But the point is accepted, although I disagree with it.

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#89
Ts_Stormrage
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Just a quick clarification; The writers and editors are on the same level as "regular" forum people are... We are not staff, we do not have any powers or responsabilities to follow those up... We write because we like it, and hopefully can entertain some of you with it... Tip.it is in charge of what gets published or not, but we have a pretty free hand in what we write about... The only rule I know of is that we have to write about something related to RuneScape... Hope this helps :)

Sorry if it looks like I have lowered myself to your level (underhanded apology much?)...

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#90
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Nah, I'm going to leave the limits of where criticism ends and where flaming begins up to the mods ;)

Btw, what has Obama or american politics to do with this? Not only can you not write, but have you forgotten to read as well?
I mentioned Glenn Beck and Fox news to make a comparrisson to how you act in this community, mainly on this thread... Your personal political views dont interest me...


It was an illustration. No illustration will fit any situation perfectly. That is all. You, once again, read into things, and missed the point.

I would also like to point out several things:

1.) I'd expect more from a member of the staff then from any other user, especially in refraining from the same conduct which they are accusing others of.

2.) The ONLY VOLUNTEERS excuse is just an excuse. Ask others if you need articles, or don't publish a poor article. As someone who has done volunteer work numerous times, that excuse doesn't normally hold much water. But the point is accepted, although I disagree with it.


Quoted for emphasis. Sure, these are written by volunteers, but that doesn't mean they're suitable. The Tip.It times are articles for community members to read and think about. Publishing poorly written articles that don't sit well with many community members doesn't reflect well on the community, either. The article could have presented the same opinion in a much more constructive fashion had the author taken a few moments to choose his words more carefully, and include relevant information. A well-written article should convey a basic understanding of the situation in question, and allow for discussion of different perspectives.

#91
Misterknowitall
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Hell, your character's personality isn't even consistent during certain storylines. Unless you feel that your character is a disciple of Guthix and acts accordingly (true, or rather, chaotic neutral), personality is more or less absent.

It's typical for a video game character to act as a blank slate onto whom the player can project his or her own personality--hence why so many heroes in RPGs are silent.

A bit hard when he comes off as a dumb guy most of the time :P

#92
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Just a quick clarification; The writers and editors are on the same level as "regular" forum people are... We are not staff, we do not have any powers or responsabilities to follow those up... We write because we like it, and hopefully can entertain some of you with it... Tip.it is in charge of what gets published or not, but we have a pretty free hand in what we write about... The only rule I know of is that we have to write about something related to RuneScape... Hope this helps :)

Sorry if it looks like I have lowered myself to your level (underhanded apology much?)...

Hardly, I've apologized in the past. This is not one of those times. My point was again missed: That more is expected of staff/people in an upward position then normal users, just like one would expect more of a boss then an employee, as far as decorum.

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#93
Ts_Stormrage
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I still will state the equivalent of "dont blame me man, i just work here..."

Former Leader of The Tal Shiar Alliance - An Original Tip.it Clan
Member of the Wilderness Guardians and Founder of the Silent Guardians
Founder of The Conclave - A Tip.it Clan institution
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MSSW4 General - Did we kick your ass too?




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#94
Ring_World
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700/4k chompy kills so far for a hat that does nothing.

Its not all about rewards for everyone, some people do enjoy the crappy mini games (rogues den, chompy hunting, etc) without useful rewards.

Also the mini games so far have been logical choices to add a story to. Im pretty sure most of the mini games have somewhat of a story anyways.

#95
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I love bashing Jagex as much as the next disgruntled player, but even I feel that article 1 is a bit of an overreaction, not to mention contradictory to an article you wrote in February:

Putting my selfish desire to wring every drop of profitability from the game with minimal time invested, I now feel that this update is a wholly refreshing change...

Skills, after all, have tended to be abused by the wealthy. Very few skills cannot be leveled with relative ease and speed given the luxury of countless millions. Minigames, on the other hand, are often a grand equalizer. Unique equipment and raw cash do not replace time and effort playing the minigames in question. This offers a brand new facet to the game to qualify a player as being truly “expert”, and rounds out the portfolio of accomplishments a player must endure/enjoy to consider their experience complete.

You Must Be THIS Tall to Ride...



Yes, Jagex is pushing unused areas and content upon us. They aren't trying to be sneaky about it. In fact, it was a main goal of theirs:

Well, this is the challenge that we’ve set ourselves: 2009 has become our official Upgrade Year! So, what does that mean? It means our New Year's resolution is to tweak and polish what we've already got in the game alongside creating new content. For example:

Doing the 'little' jobs that make a big difference (e.g. a 'You are here' arrow on the world map) and basically fixing all the annoying little quirks the game has. Things that may be the least glamorous to work on and talk about, but which really add up.
Updating some of the earliest content/quests to bring it up to date, and take advantage of all the features we have added to the game engine since it was originally created. Also, reworking old clues that no longer work now the game is bigger (e.g. 'Look west of the mountains' was fine when there was only one mountain, but not now).
Making the interfaces as intuitive, flexible and user-friendly as possible.
Then, after all that, we’ll start looking into abandoned and barely used areas/features of the game, and breathing new life into them.

Behind the Scenes -2009


I honestly don't see the harm in Jagex desiring players to broaden their scope of the game, even if the attempts do come across as shallow.
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#96
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Maybe SOME people shouldn't be criticising voluntairly written articles by a standard of thesis writers?

Like it or not, this is the best the community has to offer, cuz noone sane enough would want to write month after month and then proceed to listen to your [cabbage]storm :)


It's not the standard of thesis writers. It's just disturbing that Tip.It is willing to publish so incredibly biased and unsupported claims. Did you read the article in question yourself?

At the forefront of popularity are the quests Jagex rolls out. Long considered the “core” or “main story” of the Gielinor experience, quests have been inextricably linked to the real background your character develops, and the personality he or she carries around. Jagex promotes this popularity with the oft-desired quest cape; an item that they promise will become more and more exclusive over time, as the challenge to acquire this becomes ever more daunting.


This itself was incredibly disturbing to me. Quests were at the forefront of popularity? What population is this based on? I have long since hated quests for the incredibly poor storytelling and role-playing aspects. Personality? Your character's personality changes every quest. Your character's actions are depressingly uncharacteristic of the character you actually play.

One of the biggest examples of this is the Blood Runs Deep quest. This quest was literally ridiculous in how bad the storytelling was. Let's start with the rescue. Wait a moment, why are we escorting him through the caves again? There's these handy little spells that let me teleport other people. Not only that, but in the quest that's required for Blood Runs Deep, we saw these spells being applied in this way - to rescue someone in danger. Why can't we do this now? Because Jagex wants to force an encounter with Asgard at the end. Obviously the area is not teleport proofed, because I can teleport just fine. It's not a teleport block, else we could just wait it out.

Fastforward a bit in the quest. Now we're about to take on a bunch of Dagannoths... and there are volunteers to help me with the Dagannoth Kings. The same Dagannoth Kings which should be dead, as I've lost count of how many times I've killed them. The same Dagannoth Kings that I can take on, all at once, without breaking a sweat. Seriously, I have a 5-0 record with the king of the Fight Caves. I've taken down the Nomad with a third of my supplies left, without using a beast of burden to carry more. And what's more? I'm invincible. I forgot all my equipment during one of the earlier quests in the spirit realm with Baba Yaga. I died, and came back moments later. No big deal. Why do I need help, again?

This is the poor story-telling you experience in a game where Jagex's options are limited. They CAN'T create dozens of scenarios for every situation. Remember While Guthix Sleeps? "Hey, I'm sorry I killed your guys before, I'm on your side now, so trust me!" There's no option to work with Lucien. There's no option to leave it all alone and see how things turn out. And again, a bunch of characters throw their lives away to save someone who's invincible.

I'm not blaming Jagex for this. Most other MMOs experience similar failings, because you can't really tell a story that's suitable to how your varied player base plays this game. But at the same time, many players regard quests as gimmicky click sequences. You click on the right thing, at the right time, with the right items in your inventory. Splash a little combat in for good measure. Add a reward of experience points and exclusive items.

I'm not holding this to the standard of a thesis writer. I just feel that when an author makes such huge presumptions with no source, and little evidence, he deserves any criticism leveled his way because of it.


K, uh, some of that really bugs me. Although, it would've made sense to just teleport him out of the cave (Except you'd need 70 magic instead of 65.) ....but some of the more general critiques you have to video game storyline are stupid. Who wants to play a realistic game? A game where if you die, you restart? Would you like to spend 50 hours of game play just walking from Lumbridge to Varrock? Would you like every boss to be fully 100% dead after you kill it once?

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#97
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About the first article -

Yes the problem I have with quests is that it forces the players to do so many things outside of the quest itself. The requirements for quests are getting out of hand with quests that require 5 other quests and those five quests have a total of 20 other quests that need to be done and those 20 also have quest requirements. Plus the skill requirement and now minigames?

It's insane.

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#98
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About the first article -

Yes the problem I have with quests is that it forces the players to do so many things outside of the quest itself. The requirements for quests are getting out of hand with quests that require 5 other quests and those five quests have a total of 20 other quests that need to be done and those 20 also have quest requirements. Plus the skill requirement and now minigames?

It's insane.


I firmly believe that quests should be simultaneously the most accessible and exclusive content in Runescape. A brand new player has access to a huge number of quests right from the get-go, and it only makes sense that stories should eventually crossover (you're an adventurer involved in numerous affairs, after all) and become intertwined. As stated by others in this thread, the minigames required to start Nomad's Requiem and the Pest Control quests had direct relevance, so it made plenty of sense. I assume that we'll someday have a quest that explains the penance monsters in BA, too.

As an aside, it's funny how Times threads are the most volatile threads on TIF. I do feel that Stormveritas's article is far below the standard that I would normally expect from him, but frankly, I don't really feel like getting overly involved in this debate. For the most part, I enjoy his other articles, which is way more than I can say for some of the other writers . . .

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To put it bluntly, [bleep] off.


#99
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1st article is total BS. The others are way better.

And here... we... go!

Nice reasoning there... Your argument completely validates your points due to its well thought-out piece of intelligent TROLLING THAT YOU DUMP ON THESE FORUMS!!!
Go away, noone wants you here...


Sorry I'm late. Just came rushing by. I know I should apologise for the bad impression I gave, I was in a real hurry and couldn't find a better sentence to write. Really, don't judge me on 1 post. I'm VERY sorry.

PS: I never trolled.
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#100
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My point is that statements like the one which I quoted shows the author hasn't really put much time and effort into it. I don't care how many quest capes there are, but the author shouldn't make the assumption that everyone hates mini-games. I know people who still go down to the Burthrope Games Room. I know people who genuinely enjoy the chaos and pointlessness of Soul Wars. I'm not saying that I'm in the majority, but I think it's a little arrogant for the author to automatically assume he is.



You say "automatically assume" - but the author doesn't. You first posted how not everyone likes quests, and when the question of Quest capes arises, you dodge again. You complain about the assumptions made, yet you don't want to comment on the indications for these assumptions.

Also, nowhere in the article does the author state every one hates mini-games. He's just concerned that Jagex might push worse on us on the future - like the games room. And now don't tell me the games room isn't a prime example for unused, unliked mini games. Heck, you can go on the OFFICAL world and not meet a single person there! Storm is giving examples on how partly unliked content is pushed on players and how he fears it might get worse. I do not agree with him overall, and some points are too exaggerated in my opinion, but don't interpret something into the article the author cleary didn't want to say.




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