SGS vs EE

[TheAncient]

Is EEE really better than an SGS?

 

Let's do some math.

 

Assumptions:

SGS spec max is 600, which is slightly under the real max

Assume 100% accuracy. This is reasonable because if you cannot hit your opponent there are usually minions which you can spec off of

Assume 70-99 prayer.

Assume 90-99 HP.

 

Then, the average healing of SGS will be given by the expression:

1/600*integral(Piecewise[{{100, 0<=x<200}, {x/2, 200<=x<600}}],x,0,600)

Which evaluates to 500/3, or 166.7

 

You can do two specs with one full spec bar. Thus, a spec bar will heal you, on average, 333.3 LP.

 

The average prayer restore of SGS will be given by the expression:

(1/2)*1/60*integral(Piecewise[{{10, 0<=x<20}, {x/2, 20<=x<60}}],x,0,60)

Which evaluates to 25/3, or 8.33.

 

You can do two specs with one full spec bar. Thus, a spec bar will restore you, on average, 16.66 prayer points.

 

Therefore, by choosing SGS over EEE, you on average trade 66.6 LP of healing to gain 16.66 Prayer points.

This corresponds to a ratio of 4:1 LP:PP

 

Analysis: Inventory Space Efficiency

One prayer pot restores approximately 100-120 prayer points.

One super prayer pot restores approximately 130-160 prayer points.

One brew restores approximately 600 LP.

Thus, for one inventory space and only using prayer pots, you lose 5-6:1 LP:PP. In other words, prayer potions are more expensive in terms of food to prayer point ratio than SGS spec.

Using super prayer pots, you lose approximately 4:1 LP:PP.

 

When using prayer pots/restores and brews, an SGS is more inventory-space efficient.

When using super prayer pots, an EE is more inventory-space efficient.

 

Analysis: Cost efficiency

One prayer pot costs around 7K. One brew costs around 6K.

One prayer pot restores approximately 100-120 prayer points.

One super prayer pot restores approximately 130-160 prayer points.

One brew restores approximately 600 LP.

EEE saves you 400 LP, or 2/3 of a brew (~ 4K) per spec.

SGS saves you 333 LP, or 5/9 of a brew (~ 3.33K). It also saves you 16.66 prayer points, or 5/33 of a prayer potion (~ 1K).

 

SGS is slightly more cost efficient than an EE.

 

Analysis: Other factors

SGS is better when you need immediate healing.

SGS healing is more random and thus less reliable.

SGS introduces one more item you need to protect.

SGS is also useful to do damage because its accuracy and strength are increased for the special attack.

SGS is expensive.

SGS is more useful when using non-brew healing methods (unicorn, SS)

EEE requires many skills.

EEE is more useful for overload timing.

EEE does not require you to use melee for the spec.

 

Conclusion

SGS and EEE are still comparable. Both have benefits and drawbacks. SGS is not outdated.

They are about equal in both inventory-space efficiency and cost-efficiency. The differences between the two are within the margin of error.

[lucipher6]

Well the flaw in this is basic, you won't hit 600 every sgs spec and will hit 0 quite a bit. Justification for that claim would be that close to when it was released it replaced guthans entirely and was the most viable healing option and even on slayer with aggressive prayers active it was nowhere near to that. I'd still be skeptical even with an average hit of 400.

 

Also worth noting that excal can spec and still hit with your main weapon when timed well, whereas spec with sgs requires 2 attacks with a slower weapon when compared to most training weapons and weaker when compared to chaotic. Then there's the addition of sgs being 2 handed, meaning you always need 2 invent spaces to use the spec as opposed to 1 with excal. Aside from maybe spear at corp/maul at TD's I can't see any reason to use a 2 handed weapon, so you'll always have rapier+defender.

[C110]

I will still keep using my EEE over the SGS, mostly because I already had the stats for the EEE on release (besides fletching) so it is the cheapest option for me.

It also helps me, like stated in your post, in OVL timing.

[TheAncient]

Well the flaw in this is basic, you won't hit 600 every sgs spec and will hit 0 quite a bit. Justification for that claim would be that close to when it was released it replaced guthans entirely and was the most viable healing option and even on slayer with aggressive prayers active it was nowhere near to that. I'd still be skeptical even with an average hit of 400.

 

Also worth noting that excal can spec and still hit with your main weapon when timed well, whereas spec with sgs requires 2 attacks with a slower weapon when compared to most training weapons and weaker when compared to chaotic. Then there's the addition of sgs being 2 handed, meaning you always need 2 invent spaces to use the spec as opposed to 1 with excal. Aside from maybe spear at corp/maul at TD's I can't see any reason to use a 2 handed weapon, so you'll always have rapier+defender.

 

No, I averaged the SGS spec hit. an integral divided by the width of the interval represents an average.

 

And like I mentioned, the SGS spec attacks are more accurate and slightly stronger than a normal SGS hit. In some situations these attacks are actually better than normal hits, even with a rapier (pvp with tank armor)

 

...

 

I think in the end, it will mostly come down to the fact that SGS costs 40M and EEE is free. However, to a lot of players 40M is not a lot, and SGS can very effectively fill certain niches (certain PvM situations, certain PvP situations).

[Zaaps1]

I don't think you can assume 100% accuracy. Yes, there are USUALLY minions you can spec off, at least at places like God Wars. But then again, in many popular locations when it's useful, there aren't.

 

And even when you do spec on low level minions, such as God Wars Generals, you still can't ensure 100% accuracy.

[TheAncient]

I don't think you can assume 100% accuracy. Yes, there are USUALLY minions you can spec off, at least at places like God Wars. But then again, in many popular locations when it's useful, there aren't.

 

And even when you do spec on low level minions, such as God Wars Generals, you still can't ensure 100% accuracy.

 

True, and in those situations EEE will be slightly better. Even so, the actual max of SGS is slightly higher than the one I assumed so that partially compensates for this accuracy assumption. Also, accuracy is still really quite high (higher than a normal GS hit).

[Zaaps1]

I don't think you can assume 100% accuracy. Yes, there are USUALLY minions you can spec off, at least at places like God Wars. But then again, in many popular locations when it's useful, there aren't.

 

And even when you do spec on low level minions, such as God Wars Generals, you still can't ensure 100% accuracy.

 

True, and in those situations EEE will be slightly better. Even so, the actual max of SGS is slightly higher than the one I assumed so that partially compensates for this accuracy assumption. Also, accuracy is still really quite high (higher than a normal GS hit).

 

Very true and I don't see it changing the overall conclusions you've drawn. But I do think it's worthy of acknowledgement.

 

Good work with the math :)

[Obtaurian]

Very interesting conclusion. Personally, I'd choose the SGS over the EE while slaying, but only because I've always wanted a SGS. It's like a dream item of mine, and I've never gotten over it. :oops:

[C110]

Very interesting conclusion. Personally, I'd choose the SGS over the EE while slaying, but only because I've always wanted a SGS. It's like a dream item of mine, and I've never gotten over it. :oops:

 

It was a dream of me aswell about a year ago. Then I finally got it and sold it back in 3-4 days because it wasn't what I expected it would be at all!

[Zaaps1]

Very interesting conclusion. Personally, I'd choose the SGS over the EE while slaying, but only because I've always wanted a SGS. It's like a dream item of mine, and I've never gotten over it. :oops:

 

It was a dream of me aswell about a year ago. Then I finally got it and sold it back in 3-4 days because it wasn't what I expected it would be at all!

 

Yes you have to be pretty meticulous with the SGS to use it effectively. I owned on and while it was great when I used it (no food needed for Bork, great at Waterfiends, etc.) I frankly feel that the ease of the EE/EEE makes it more practical, albeit less efficient in certain situations.

 

Plus, it's nice not having to leave an empty space to take your shield.

[xpx]

The accuracy assumption is very much wrong, maybe 90% accuracy max, but not much more than that, rapier, on slayer task, on dark beasts, hits around 86% of the time.

 

In any case, i haven't used a special weapon other than claws for years now, haven't even bothered to do any of the seers diarys, so maybe you should somehow try to compare them to claws/KS aswell.

[atestarossa]

Another factor to look at, is that you can spec with the EE without spending any more time, you can change, spec, change and attack again between the attacks of a weapon with scimitar-speed.

The SGS, on the other hand lowers your DPS, since you'll have to wait a few more game ticks before you can attack again with your primary weapon.

 

Might not be much, but since you seem to have taken a lot of things into the equation, one more factor won't hurt.

[Star_Fox]

Really? I think SGS is useless no matter what the circumstances are. The odds of getting a successful hit is too marginal to consider what the price is.

EE on the other hand is guaranteed to heal you 200LP in addition to having that nice 15% defence level boost. SGS can miss which means that

you will completely waste your special bar which happens quite often. Even with maxed melee. :rolleyes: Let's face it. GS are great, but I personally

think its time to move on to chaotics or more strategic weapons.

[Bladewing]

SGS wastes 3 rounds of attacking; EE can spec in between hits.

 

SGS also costs 50m and protects over many valuable pieces; EE is replaceable for 500gp and has very low protect value.

 

SGS forces you to give up a shield for 3 rounds of combat, increasing the damage you take.

 

SGS is worse than EE.

[TheAncient]

Again, there are situations where SGS's spec is actually useful for offense. Example: supreme, where his defense is quite low to begin with.

[Bladewing]

the lower the defence, the more inferior SGS becomes because whip/rapier would be even more powerful

[Gradeskip]

I bring SGS when doing rock lobsters bursting trip and spec a melee dagganoth every lure. I've used 2 prayer pot doses for a 3k casts trip, pretty amazing :mrgreen:

[TheAncient]

the lower the defence, the more inferior SGS becomes because whip/rapier would be even more powerful

 

not necessarily for supreme. SGS on supreme is useful in that it, depending on how fast you brew, or if you're using sharks, can save you an attack turn that you otherwise would have spent eating. this is what makes sgs's offense capabilities so unique: it's an accurate, powerful hit that also heals you.

 

however, you need your opponent to have relatively low defense for this to work out reliably. that's what i meant.

[Aslan]

A 50M item you keep in the invy only to spec with it every 2.5 minutes(50% spec) doesn't seem that good to me.I've had SGS for about 2 months, mainly used it for camping spirit mages without pray(kept pray flicking).It protects over a lot of items.I'd personally keep it for junklending.That's about it.

[xpx]

the lower the defence, the more inferior SGS becomes because whip/rapier would be even more powerful

 

not necessarily for supreme. SGS on supreme is useful in that it, depending on how fast you brew, or if you're using sharks, can save you an attack turn that you otherwise would have spent eating. this is what makes sgs's offense capabilities so unique: it's an accurate, powerful hit that also heals you.

 

however, you need your opponent to have relatively low defense for this to work out reliably. that's what i meant.

Errm, firstly, you'd still lose those attack turns on supreme instead of using rapier, let alone claws, or even dagger. Secondly, as you'd be using overloads, the infrequent healing would be immensely inferior to EEE which heals most of overload damage, when it is needed. Thirdly, the risk matters alot for DK's- SGS could be the difference of losing/keeping rapier, when EEE is never an issue. I'd still like you to tell us one place where SGS would be significantly better than EEE, particularly as there are quite a few where the opposite is true(particularly bosshunting with overloads).

[bedman]

I've sold my sgs a few months ago, and I don't think I will be getting it back, even though you do make a point.

 

The main reason for me is the extra risk involved, since I would be mainly using it at dk's. With chaotics, you really don't wanna risk your chaotic, so every high value item has to be chosen carefully, and if an EEE is nearly as good and doesn't make you give up high value item spot, I will go for that one.

 

Only other place I found it useful, was waterfiend tasks, but even that got kinda unneeded with soul split. I used to bring claws my last few tasks, but once I get EEE I think I will bring that one to offset my overload damage. Claws weren't hitting good enough for my liking;

[TheAncient]

the lower the defence, the more inferior SGS becomes because whip/rapier would be even more powerful

 

not necessarily for supreme. SGS on supreme is useful in that it, depending on how fast you brew, or if you're using sharks, can save you an attack turn that you otherwise would have spent eating. this is what makes sgs's offense capabilities so unique: it's an accurate, powerful hit that also heals you.

 

however, you need your opponent to have relatively low defense for this to work out reliably. that's what i meant.

Errm, firstly, you'd still lose those attack turns on supreme instead of using rapier, let alone claws, or even dagger. Secondly, as you'd be using overloads, the infrequent healing would be immensely inferior to EEE which heals most of overload damage, when it is needed. Thirdly, the risk matters alot for DK's- SGS could be the difference of losing/keeping rapier, when EEE is never an issue. I'd still like you to tell us one place where EEE would be significantly better than SGS, particularly as there are quite a few where the opposite is true(particularly bosshunting with overloads).

 

Depends: if you ovl around when you're killing supreme, SGS will be way better. If you ovl around when you're killing rex, you can SS and thus postpone your spec. Mainly when you ovl and are killing prime (which is rarely) or rex without SS, EEE is better. Also, if you don't bring a fury and use prot item, SGS won't protect over rapier.

 

On a rough approximation:

SGS is better for: supreme, bandos(?), TD's(?), slayer

EEE is better for: arma, solo rex

 

Though, claws or KS will probably be best for:

Bandos, TD's

[xpx]

the lower the defence, the more inferior SGS becomes because whip/rapier would be even more powerful

 

not necessarily for supreme. SGS on supreme is useful in that it, depending on how fast you brew, or if you're using sharks, can save you an attack turn that you otherwise would have spent eating. this is what makes sgs's offense capabilities so unique: it's an accurate, powerful hit that also heals you.

 

however, you need your opponent to have relatively low defense for this to work out reliably. that's what i meant.

Errm, firstly, you'd still lose those attack turns on supreme instead of using rapier, let alone claws, or even dagger. Secondly, as you'd be using overloads, the infrequent healing would be immensely inferior to EEE which heals most of overload damage, when it is needed. Thirdly, the risk matters alot for DK's- SGS could be the difference of losing/keeping rapier, when EEE is never an issue. I'd still like you to tell us one place where SGS would be significantly better than EEE, particularly as there are quite a few where the opposite is true(particularly bosshunting with overloads).

 

Depends: if you ovl around when you're killing supreme, SGS will be way better. If you ovl around when you're killing rex, you can SS and thus postpone your spec. Mainly when you ovl and are killing prime (which is rarely) or rex without SS, EEE is better. Also, if you don't bring a fury and use prot item, SGS won't protect over rapier.

 

On a rough approximation:

SGS is better for: supreme, bandos(?), TD's(?), slayer

EEE is better for: arma, solo rex

 

Though, claws or KS will probably be best for:

Bandos, TD's

If you don't bring a fury and use protect item, you'd lose some of your offensive force, just like when you have to do damage with an inferior(SGS) weapons instead of rapier. You haven't accounted for this. Just like accuracy. SGS is MUCH worse for DK's. MUCH. Just as it's worse for bandos, TD's and slayer, even though offensive specs would be better for those. Not to mention, when you aren't using overloads, you get a good boost for defense, which you don't with SGS. Face it, the unreliability of SGS is also a major factor, as well as having to be below 690 lp when speccing(which you also didn't account for).

[TheAncient]

Depends: if you ovl around when you're killing supreme, SGS will be way better. If you ovl around when you're killing rex, you can SS and thus postpone your spec. Mainly when you ovl and are killing prime (which is rarely) or rex without SS, EEE is better. Also, if you don't bring a fury and use prot item, SGS won't protect over rapier.

 

On a rough approximation:

SGS is better for: supreme, bandos(?), TD's(?), slayer

EEE is better for: arma, solo rex

 

Though, claws or KS will probably be best for:

Bandos, TD's

If you don't bring a fury and use protect item, you'd lose some of your offensive force, just like when you have to do damage with an inferior(SGS) weapons instead of rapier. You haven't accounted for this. Just like accuracy. SGS is MUCH worse for DK's. MUCH. Just as it's worse for bandos, TD's and slayer, even though offensive specs would be better for those. Not to mention, when you aren't using overloads, you get a good boost for defense, which you don't with SGS. Face it, the unreliability of SGS is also a major factor, as well as having to be below 690 lp when speccing(which you also didn't account for).

 

Fury is +2 strength compared to glory, and you use arcstream most of the time anyway. The only real loss is 12 defense and 2 prayer, but again - you're using arcstream most of the time.

We'll have to test out SGS accuracy against supreme to make any hard conclusions. Otherwise both of us are handwaving.

To guarentee full EEE healing you also have to spec right when you ovl or start at 590 HP.

[xpx]

But overall, there is no significant advantage to either of those, and claws could actually be the best...so why bother? Yet again, tell me a place where SGS is significantly getter than EEE, because, as i said before, EEE is better for most situations, not to mention timing and healing overload damage(alot of people use the defense levels from EEE, so you really should consider that). Also, there is no way in hell that SGS is more than 90% accurate on supreme. NO WAY. assuming 100% accuracy is a significant mistake in the calculations.