Nifflin Posted October 18, 2010 Share Posted October 18, 2010 It's not like alchemy is needed anyways. Most smart people realize other magic training is superior. What function does it really serve? Of course, if it was removed another inflation counterweight would need to be removed to keep things balanced and prevent deflation. Making alchemy adjust to meet inflation is not the solution as you're correct, it would cause runaway inflation which would mess up other parts of the game. It would be unwise to fix alchemy to current moneymakers as the cash brought in by alchemy would just make them better and a cycle would be created. Having alchemy in the first place was an unwise decision, it disrupts the economy be creating artificial limits much like the GE does. Either way it doesn't matter, alchemy will never be removed by Jagex. They are far to stubborn to make concrete changes to fix the economical maladies we are afflicted with. PM me in game anytime It's a lot easier then that for an idiot to sound smart on the internet. That's exactly what you're doing right now... just saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sees_all1 Posted October 18, 2010 Share Posted October 18, 2010 It's not like alchemy is needed anyways. Most smart people realize other magic training is superior. What function does it really serve? Of course, if it was removed another inflation counterweight would need to be removed to keep things balanced and prevent deflation. If it wasn't for half-decent mindless magic experience, high alchemy would be worthless. As far as inflation sources fixing themselves, there's a simple thought experiment.There's a hypothetical place in the wilderness that spawns 10k gp every minute. Players fight each other to be there - 600k an hour just to stand there. In every world, everyone has this spot covered. For 200 worlds, the economy is increasing its GP supply by 120 million an hour.Pretty soon its a month later, and 86.4 billion GP has come into the economy. All the prices have inflated because GP is worth less than it was before. Another month goes by, and the price of everything has doubled. That 600k an hour figure now changes to 300k an hour from two months ago, based on its purchasing price. All of a sudden 300k an hour for no experience gained doesn't seem quite as appealing, when compared to other methods, like godwars or barrows (which were about 1m an hour in two months ago terms). Most players go back to their old routine, leaving some worlds vacant. 50 billion extra GP now flows into the game every month, causing inflation to occur much slower. As the GP becomes worth less, standing at that spot becomes much less coveted. Yes, inflation from that spot never truly goes away, but the immediate problem fixes itself. 99 dungeoneering achieved, thanks to everyone that celebrated with me! ♪♪ Don't interrupt me as I struggle to complete this thoughtHave some respect for someone more forgetful than yourself ♪♪♪♪ And I'm not doneAnd I won't be till my head falls off ♪♪ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nifflin Posted October 18, 2010 Share Posted October 18, 2010 It's not like alchemy is needed anyways. Most smart people realize other magic training is superior. What function does it really serve? Of course, if it was removed another inflation counterweight would need to be removed to keep things balanced and prevent deflation. If it wasn't for half-decent mindless magic experience, high alchemy would be worthless. As far as inflation sources fixing themselves, there's a simple thought experiment.There's a hypothetical place in the wilderness that spawns 10k gp every minute. Players fight each other to be there - 600k an hour just to stand there. In every world, everyone has this spot covered. For 200 worlds, the economy is increasing its GP supply by 120 million an hour.Pretty soon its a month later, and 86.4 billion GP has come into the economy. All the prices have inflated because GP is worth less than it was before. Another month goes by, and the price of everything has doubled. That 600k an hour figure now changes to 300k an hour from two months ago, based on its purchasing price. All of a sudden 300k an hour for no experience gained doesn't seem quite as appealing, when compared to other methods, like godwars or barrows (which were about 1m an hour in two months ago terms). Most players go back to their old routine, leaving some worlds vacant. 50 billion extra GP now flows into the game every month, causing inflation to occur much slower. As the GP becomes worth less, standing at that spot becomes much less coveted. Yes, inflation from that spot never truly goes away, but the immediate problem fixes itself. The original discussion was about how inflation devaluates moneymaking methods linked to alchemy (mostly about that anyway). At least that became the last reason Ts_Stormrage had for inflation being "bad" for the Runescape economy. Since alchemy doesn't self regulate like that it becomes harmed by inflation. The solution to remove the discrepancy then is not to stop inflation, as deflation is more harmful, but to remove alchemy. PM me in game anytime It's a lot easier then that for an idiot to sound smart on the internet. That's exactly what you're doing right now... just saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sees_all1 Posted October 18, 2010 Share Posted October 18, 2010 The original discussion was about how inflation devaluates moneymaking methods linked to alchemy (mostly about that anyway). Is that just crafting nature runes? Solution to that is to introduce a new kick-ass spell that creates a new demand for nature runes (which, invariably make high alchemy more expensive and remove it from the game) 99 dungeoneering achieved, thanks to everyone that celebrated with me! ♪♪ Don't interrupt me as I struggle to complete this thoughtHave some respect for someone more forgetful than yourself ♪♪♪♪ And I'm not doneAnd I won't be till my head falls off ♪♪ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caleom Posted October 18, 2010 Share Posted October 18, 2010 all this talk about money and the "economy" makes me feel nostalgic to when i played on christmas day aged ten and level 45 (i was so proud). And then out of the blue a highter level player gave me 250k. Gee I really wish JAGEX would get rid of the trade limits. They have their uses but do seem to stop alot of generousity in the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stonewall337 Posted October 18, 2010 Share Posted October 18, 2010 @first article err inflation DOES encourage runescapers to buy now rather than later. pretty silly to say it doesn't. however the point about alchemy-based profit methods is true: as price levels go up, these methods become, relatively, increasingly inferior. i also found "the economy is not fine, is a house of cards etc." to be pretty... unfounded. the only shred of support for that position is that jagex can change the game... which is not to say that every/any update will ruin the economy. the only way jagex can kill the economy is to prevent people from trading their goods. also found the tag paragraph of "buyable skills don't get respect hunter is better" to be highly irrelevant; it made me :-s otherwise a decent read i guess edit: especially liked the section on manipulation clans, very good points. the only way you can get hurt by a manipulation clan is if you are unprepared (i.e. not enough supplies). edit 2: my belief is that jagex should not actively attempt to manipulate markets, rather when introducing content they should consider the economic implications thereof and decide of they match the content. for example the economic effects of extreme potions for herblore matched the content; the economic effects of climbing boots did not match the content. Ye, it was a good article, far superior to the past few weeks. Good job storm! I disagreed on a few small points, but with an economy as complex as RS', its hard to get people to agree on everything. My one main disagreement is with the economy is fine. I believe the ECONOMY itself is fine, the main problem is the GE, which doesn't reflect items real prices quickly enough, (or ever in the case of phats etc). A stagnant economy is far worse then a dynamic one. As well, I'd like to point out that although Daemonheim changes the economy by people not gathering stuff, or making things, but also consider: 1.) Recharge costs (minimal) 2.) Increased speeds later "farming" bosses/monsters. [hide=Drops]Araxxor Eye x1 Leg pieces x2GWD: 5000 Addy bar Steam B Staff x3 Z Spear x6 Sara. Hilt x2 Bandos Hilt x2 (LS, Solo)SS x6 (1 LS)Tormented Demons: Shard x6 Slice x5 Claws x9 Limbs x3DKS: Archer x21 Warrior x31 Berserker x30 Axe x51[/hide] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danqazmlp Posted October 18, 2010 Share Posted October 18, 2010 Removing alchemy could possibly do even more damage to the economy. Many items and skills rely on the alchemy floors to stop their items becoming worthless and unsellable. Take for example almost all items made through smithing and fletching. The prices fluctuate around the alchemy prices but never really deviate from them. The best example would be yew longbows strung and unstrung. Their price is linked directly to their high alchemy price. I can't even start to describe the damage removing these would do. Want to be my friend? Look under my name to the left<<< and click the 'Add as friend' button!Big thanks to Stevepole for the signature!^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stonewall337 Posted October 18, 2010 Share Posted October 18, 2010 Removing alchemy could possibly do even more damage to the economy. Many items and skills rely on the alchemy floors to stop their items becoming worthless and unsellable. Take for example almost all items made through smithing and fletching. The prices fluctuate around the alchemy prices but never really deviate from them. The best example would be yew longbows strung and unstrung. Their price is linked directly to their high alchemy price. I can't even start to describe the damage removing these would do.This. Smithing, crafting, and fletching are all tied, in large part, to alchemy prices. Same for some dragon items (D meds alch for what, 60k, close to GE price) [hide=Drops]Araxxor Eye x1 Leg pieces x2GWD: 5000 Addy bar Steam B Staff x3 Z Spear x6 Sara. Hilt x2 Bandos Hilt x2 (LS, Solo)SS x6 (1 LS)Tormented Demons: Shard x6 Slice x5 Claws x9 Limbs x3DKS: Archer x21 Warrior x31 Berserker x30 Axe x51[/hide] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ts_Stormrage Posted October 18, 2010 Share Posted October 18, 2010 The original discussion was about how inflation devaluates moneymaking methods linked to alchemy (mostly about that anyway). At least that became the last reason Ts_Stormrage had for inflation being "bad" for the Runescape economy. Since alchemy doesn't self regulate like that it becomes harmed by inflation. The solution to remove the discrepancy then is not to stop inflation, as deflation is more harmful, but to remove alchemy. It has become my last reason hasn't it? But its a conclusion I've drawn from your own arguments :D So, removing alchemy from the game... How then do we get rid of items we would normally alch? How fast would the popularity of large portions of the fletching, smithing and crafting skills plummet? Followed by the raw materials needed for them, followed by the gathering skills like woodcutting and mining... So is alching becoming the neccisary evil of the economy? Btw, omg, we have an actual debate going on :o Former Leader of The Tal Shiar Alliance - An Original Tip.it ClanMember of the Wilderness Guardians and Founder of the Silent GuardiansFounder of The Conclave - A Tip.it Clan institutionTip.it Times author (click for all my articles) - When I use the wrong reasons to make the right statement, argue the reason, not the statement.MSSW4 General - Did we kick your ass too?Check us out!==> No seriously, if you like FREE GP, XP and Dung tokens, as well as Community, Opportunity and above all FUN... <==CLICK IT! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bladewing Posted October 18, 2010 Share Posted October 18, 2010 i find it odd that you cite the existence of unhealthy portions of the economy (such as botting) for why the economy is a house of cards, yet you seek to perpetuate the unhealthy economy that are platebody smithing and bow making by means of price floors (alchemy), lol. remove alchemy: fletching now is trained by arrow making and bolt fletching. demand for logs recedes; log prices fall. increased demand for arrowtips and unfinished bolts increase their respective prices. smithing would still be trained by the rich/impatient with platebodies, but more scrupulous players would making arrowtips and bolts. bar and ore prices would fall. as you see, alchemy ultimately keeps gathering profits and production losses artificially high. How to Chin Nechyraels for fast XP and profit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nifflin Posted October 19, 2010 Share Posted October 19, 2010 Then woodcutting and mining would no longer be falsely profitable, people would be incentivized to use other actually profitable methods to train such as combat. Thus the illusion that moneymakers should be close to each other in profitability to encourage diversity in moneymaking methods would be seen as false. Again, alching wasn't the only problem, bots too also create artificial supply. Without them (which will never happen) gathering skills would be much more profitable. In a way, alching and bots seem to balance each other out. Typing this at 5AM before class, sorry if it might seem a little incoherent. PM me in game anytime It's a lot easier then that for an idiot to sound smart on the internet. That's exactly what you're doing right now... just saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aiel Posted October 19, 2010 Share Posted October 19, 2010 Then woodcutting and mining would no longer be falsely profitable, people would be incentivized to use other actually profitable methods to train such as combat. Thus the illusion that moneymakers should be close to each other in profitability to encourage diversity in moneymaking methods would be seen as false. Again, alching wasn't the only problem, bots too also create artificial supply. Without them (which will never happen) gathering skills would be much more profitable. In a way, alching and bots seem to balance each other out. Typing this at 5AM before class, sorry if it might seem a little incoherent.but mining and woodcutting are not very profitable for the average 'scaper right now. DK drops (solo/LS): 66 hatchets, 14 archer rings, 13 berserker rings, 17 warrior rings, 12 seerculls, 13 mud staves, 7 seers ringsQBD drops: 1 kite, 2 visages, 4 dragonbone kits, 3 effigies, lots of crossbow partsCR vs. CLS threads always turn into discussions about penis size....It's not called a Compensation Longsword for nothing.I've sent a 12k combat mission to have Aiel assassinated (poor bastard isn't even Pincers-tier difficulty). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emerson Posted October 19, 2010 Share Posted October 19, 2010 but mining and woodcutting are not very profitable for the average 'scaper right now. I believe Ts's point is that if it werent for the bots it would be.... actually it would probably be very much so. "In order to lead, you must learn how to carry your followers upon your shoulders""A man is not only defined by his abilities, but also by those of the men with which he surrounds himself""The meek fight for skill and fame, the strong fight for power with the skill and fame they already have""There is no good without sacrifice and no sacrifice without mercy" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
veziv Posted October 19, 2010 Share Posted October 19, 2010 I really liked the first article. A lot of the changes in economy seem to be due to Jagex' struggle to keep people interested in every part of the game:- When skills were the best money makers, there was not much point in combat, especially given that "combat" was just a matter of putting on your best equipment, clicking a monster, and waiting for it to drop something.- So they introduced more strategic combat, but rewards had to be apropriate. They also tried to draw attention to new Slayer skill by giving it good rewards. So the balance swung towards combat as the more profitable activity.- Now they are trying to renew the interest in skills with things like Elite Diaries and untradable Herblore potions, because there is no other reason to train most skills. Another factor that contributed to the lack of interest in skills is "make X" menus. Back when you had to click every silver ore, then click furnace, then click a bar, then click furnace, you had to actively play the game while skilling. Now, many skills, such as Herblore, fall into the gap where the delay between clicking "Make All" and being able to do the next action is big enough to get bored, but not big enough to do something in another browser window (like you can with Fishing, or grinding bones at Ectofuntus). So while Make-X was good for ergonomics, it made the process skilling more boring by introducing a forced delay between the time you initiate an action and the time it completes. That is actually the problem I find with a lot of parts of modern Runescape: many tasks are sufficiently automated to not require full attention, but not so automated that I can run the game in the background while doing something entirely different. This makes performing these (usually skill-related) tasks boring, because the mind wonders, but can't wonder far enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stonewall337 Posted October 19, 2010 Share Posted October 19, 2010 but mining and woodcutting are not very profitable for the average 'scaper right now. I believe Ts's point is that if it werent for the bots it would be.... actually it would probably be very much so.You couldn't be more wrong, for the very simple fact that many, if not most, smithing and fletching finished products are alched, which ties the price of the finished item to a rather narrow margin. Thus, mining ores and cutting logs won't go above a certain peak, which isn't even double what it currently is. Thus, mining and Wcing will always suck as a real moneymaker. To the above, I think you are playing the wrong game if you find so much of RS boring. Personally, I just don't train skills I find boring anymore, unless I get in the mood for them. [hide=Drops]Araxxor Eye x1 Leg pieces x2GWD: 5000 Addy bar Steam B Staff x3 Z Spear x6 Sara. Hilt x2 Bandos Hilt x2 (LS, Solo)SS x6 (1 LS)Tormented Demons: Shard x6 Slice x5 Claws x9 Limbs x3DKS: Archer x21 Warrior x31 Berserker x30 Axe x51[/hide] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aceethan Posted October 19, 2010 Share Posted October 19, 2010 I like quests! :thumbsup: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenStorm Posted October 20, 2010 Share Posted October 20, 2010 So the point about certain moneymakers falling horribly behind because they have fixed alch values (or similar restraints) is completely lost on you? I said it is a fortunate thing that we can be flexible and change carreers every minute, but that alone is not enough of an excuse to let whole skills and areas of the game go unused... If you disagree, name some big money makers that do not involve any combat or merchanting, besides hunting Grenwalls and making Nature Runes One note: even grenwall hunting and nature crafting are falling behind. I've got a decent rc lvl, and making nats just isn't as profitable as it once was-- if one only gets one nat per ess, I think no net profit is made, accounting for the price of graahks and duelling rings. So, basically, even these best moneymakers are being screwed over. Orc-- Proud member of the Tal Shiar Alliance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stonewall337 Posted October 20, 2010 Share Posted October 20, 2010 So the point about certain moneymakers falling horribly behind because they have fixed alch values (or similar restraints) is completely lost on you? I said it is a fortunate thing that we can be flexible and change carreers every minute, but that alone is not enough of an excuse to let whole skills and areas of the game go unused... If you disagree, name some big money makers that do not involve any combat or merchanting, besides hunting Grenwalls and making Nature Runes One note: even grenwall hunting and nature crafting are falling behind. I've got a decent rc lvl, and making nats just isn't as profitable as it once was-- if one only gets one nat per ess, I think no net profit is made, accounting for the price of graahks and duelling rings. So, basically, even these best moneymakers are being screwed over. Also, @Ts Combat should be the best money maker, and merchanting should be a good one as well. Combat, lets see. I'm constantly risking between 30-100m, as well as at least 1 chaotic, and I've spent over 1.5b on my gear and stats. So I should be making better money then someone who needs 150k worth of P ess. [hide=Drops]Araxxor Eye x1 Leg pieces x2GWD: 5000 Addy bar Steam B Staff x3 Z Spear x6 Sara. Hilt x2 Bandos Hilt x2 (LS, Solo)SS x6 (1 LS)Tormented Demons: Shard x6 Slice x5 Claws x9 Limbs x3DKS: Archer x21 Warrior x31 Berserker x30 Axe x51[/hide] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jrhairychest Posted October 21, 2010 Share Posted October 21, 2010 I see lots of talk based on the RS economy and comparing it to RL. While thats true to a certain extent I also disagree with it. Apart from trading in rares and some F2P items such as TT, we don't actually have to trade with other players for the stuff we want. We can get it ourselves. Granted it may not be as much fun for some and it would take a long time but we can do it all the same. Its called self sufficiency. You can get by in this game without trading with anyone. If the economy collapsed tomorrow, players can still play. IMO the economy is often an excuse for player laziness (myself included!). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Assume Nothing Posted October 21, 2010 Share Posted October 21, 2010 I see lots of talk based on the RS economy and comparing it to RL. While thats true to a certain extent I also disagree with it. Apart from trading in rares and some F2P items such as TT, we don't actually have to trade with other players for the stuff we want. We can get it ourselves. Granted it may not be as much fun for some and it would take a long time but we can do it all the same. Its called self sufficiency. You can get by in this game without trading with anyone. If the economy collapsed tomorrow, players can still play. IMO the economy is often an excuse for player laziness (myself included!). Self-sufficiency is known to be objectively inefficient. Unless you actually enjoy that, I wouldn't recommend doing so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stonewall337 Posted October 21, 2010 Share Posted October 21, 2010 I see lots of talk based on the RS economy and comparing it to RL. While thats true to a certain extent I also disagree with it. Apart from trading in rares and some F2P items such as TT, we don't actually have to trade with other players for the stuff we want. We can get it ourselves. Granted it may not be as much fun for some and it would take a long time but we can do it all the same. Its called self sufficiency. You can get by in this game without trading with anyone. If the economy collapsed tomorrow, players can still play. IMO the economy is often an excuse for player laziness (myself included!). Why is laziness bad, in some instances? Efficiency is intellectual laziness, in some sense of the word. Self sufficiency (DIY) is simply a game play choice. RS is an interesting economy, its capitalistic, tied in some ways to supply and demand, yet its not a true free market. Quite interesting. [hide=Drops]Araxxor Eye x1 Leg pieces x2GWD: 5000 Addy bar Steam B Staff x3 Z Spear x6 Sara. Hilt x2 Bandos Hilt x2 (LS, Solo)SS x6 (1 LS)Tormented Demons: Shard x6 Slice x5 Claws x9 Limbs x3DKS: Archer x21 Warrior x31 Berserker x30 Axe x51[/hide] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jrhairychest Posted October 21, 2010 Share Posted October 21, 2010 The topic is the economy, and laziness contributes to it. We can get by without the economy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stonewall337 Posted October 21, 2010 Share Posted October 21, 2010 The topic is the economy, and laziness contributes to it. We can get by without the economy.I'm asking you to provide some proof, or reasoning to back up your statement, whether or not laziness is bad, etc. Godswords are part of the game. Same thing. I too can make obvious statements. Also, whilst technically we "could" get by without the economy, I am sure many, if not most, players would quit if there was no Player to player trading in any form, and to a lesser extent if everything was forced to be DIY. [hide=Drops]Araxxor Eye x1 Leg pieces x2GWD: 5000 Addy bar Steam B Staff x3 Z Spear x6 Sara. Hilt x2 Bandos Hilt x2 (LS, Solo)SS x6 (1 LS)Tormented Demons: Shard x6 Slice x5 Claws x9 Limbs x3DKS: Archer x21 Warrior x31 Berserker x30 Axe x51[/hide] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jrhairychest Posted October 21, 2010 Share Posted October 21, 2010 The topic is the economy, and laziness contributes to it. We can get by without the economy.I'm asking you to provide some proof, or reasoning to back up your statement, whether or not laziness is bad, etc. Godswords are part of the game. Same thing. I too can make obvious statements. Also, whilst technically we "could" get by without the economy, I am sure many, if not most, players would quit if there was no Player to player trading in any form, and to a lesser extent if everything was forced to be DIY. Look at yourself and everyone else for proof. Look at anything you buy because you cba to get it yourself. We're all guilty of it so we trade for what we want. Some call it efficiency but its just laziness. You're right we could get by without the economy which is why I don't read too much into all the talk about it. In some ways it'd be more of an achievement to get things ourselves rather than just buy them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Assume Nothing Posted October 21, 2010 Share Posted October 21, 2010 The topic is the economy, and laziness contributes to it. We can get by without the economy. In a good economy its faster to cut ivy for 99 woodcutting and buy your own fletching/fire making supplies (given you make decent money per hour - id say as low as 200k) In the lack of an economy you will cut yews to 99 - make yew longs (collecting and making yourown bow strings as well) you will then cut past 99 for the remaining yew logs needed. Then cut some more for firemaking (see why an economy is needed yet?) So around 30mil wc xp (and probably a year of playing or more) you will have 99 wc (30mil xp most likely) 99 fletching and 99 firemaking. I wouldnt call it laziness as much as more efficient His argument is that you should play for 50 years to max out. If you don't, then you're just lazy. EDIT - @jrhairychest; Why is it lazy? You haven't answered the question. I can make obvious statements too. Godswords are part of the game. We are clicking on pixels. We can talk ingame. Oh, and whilst you're at it, give me a picture of your empty GE history Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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