27-Oct.-2010 Emergent Gameplay letter

[Golvellius]

Proof that Golvellius engages in emergent gameplay (he's wrong here, but he's still arguing that this form of emergent gameplay is the best way to kill frost dragons):

 

Good stuff that will help you.

And using a cannon to kill something in the game is unique?

Worthy of tacking on new meanings to old words.

I don't think so.

If you stuck flowers under the cannon, invited your friends over, and praised it as an effigy to the god of efficiency in return for his holy blessings and divine spreadsheets, then I might.

 

I only offered a tip since somebody was blathering about their beloved rapier.

But, now they changed their tone and it's all about the chaotic xbow. :wink:

[ghjkl]

But it doesn't work. There are no safespots at frost dragons.

[green9090]

The point is that hiding to make the cannon act as a multicombat weapon in a single combat area is emergent gameplay.

 

Pretending to run a restaurant in your POH is roleplaying.

 

See the difference?

[Obtaurian]

Proof that Golvellius engages in emergent gameplay (he's wrong here, but he's still arguing that this form of emergent gameplay is the best way to kill frost dragons):

 

Good stuff that will help you.

And using a cannon to kill something in the game is unique?

Worthy of tacking on new meanings to old words.

I don't.

If you stuck flowers under the cannon, invited your friends over, and praised it as an effigy to the god of efficiency in return for his holy blessings and divine spreadsheets, then I might.

 

I only offered a tip since somebody was blathering about their beloved rapier.

But, now they changed there tone and its all about the chaotic xbow. :wink:

 

And as multiple players have pointed out to you, there is no place to stand in the frost dragons dungeon that will allow your cannon to go multi. Nice try. By the way, the rapier will still get you the most kills, but ranged is significantly less click-intensive.

 

So, again, you DO (read: attempt to) utilize emergent gameplay, Golvellius the Clown.

[stonewall337]

Without getting into whether or not I think these things are "good" or "right", as those terms are highly relative (in a game), here are examples of emergent gameplay.

 

Killing monsters of effigies instead of training the skill "conventionally".

 

Graahk/Kyatting to run nats/summoning.

 

"rushing" dg's. (Jagex said large dungeons take 2-3 hours lol)

 

Cannon in single combat.

 

BoB when training herb/smithing.

 

26/76king.

 

ETc. Etc.

 

And Goi, you didn't give me another definition, or a reason why Wikipedia is either a) wrong or b) unreliable in this instance.

[Sir_Kurity]

Wrong thread.

[Maximusa]

Hmm I consider more of what he is speaking about as roleplaying. Emergent gameplay is what jagex is generally against for the most part.

 

Normal intended gameplay - Someone uses a yak at alter to store extra bones - Taking bones out when inventory is empty. (I wouldnt even consider the fact of using a yak at alter as emergent.. it was designed that way for such use.)

 

Roleplaying - Someone sets up a business and stands around pretending his house is a church..?

 

Emergent gameplay - Someone uses yak at alter to store extra bones - and then takes extra bones out before inventory is empty to get more xp/hr without being slowed down.

 

The emergent gameplay wasnt intended but became true because the players thought of something the developers obviously didnt. (I use that as an example as it was recently proven they hadnt thought of it. I would of previously thought this was intended but apparently they hadnt even though of it...) I suppose there are better examples but this one is proved to be unintended.

 

Not sure I would consider roleplaying in same category as surely its intended by the developers for people to do that if they wish to. Like leading a pig to mud what would you expect to happen? Its a game afterall. I can only suppose technically it is emergent gameplay.. aka roleplaying!!

[Rosanante1]

WIKI Definition:

"Emergent gameplay refers to complex situations in video games, board games or table top role playing games that emerge from the interaction of relatively simple game mechanics.[1]

 

More recently game designers have attempted to encourage emergent play by providing tools to players such as placing web browsers within the game engine (such as in EVE Online, The Matrix Online), providing XML integration tools and programming languages (Second Life), fixing exchange rates (Entropia Universe), and allowing a player to spawn any object that they desire to solve a puzzle (Scribblenauts)."

 

I have to admit that I read the article and to be honest, it didn't make any sense to me in terms of how I play the game. I looked up the definition of emergent gameplay on Wiki because there aren't any other credible sources for that type of description. (Whether WIKI is credible is open to debate, but it's the best in this case). Needless to say I'm still confused.

 

The only example that I have is one which was discussed on this forum some weeks ago, the one where the War Tort could carry bones to the altar and quick-switch them in your inventory to be used on said altar. Bizarrely the JMod was unaware of this "bug", but others described it as emergent gameplay. (Sorry if my description is off slighlty. My bad - memory).

 

So have I read this correctly. Are we being encouraged to exploit bugs in the guise of emergent gameplay? oooh dangerous! :ohnoes:

[Sir_Kurity]

"rushing" dg's. (Jagex said large dungeons take 2-3 hours lol)

 

You cannot be serious.

 

Even the worst teams don't even take 2 hours.

[Obtaurian]

"rushing" dg's. (Jagex said large dungeons take 2-3 hours lol)

 

You cannot be serious.

 

Even the worst teams don't even take 2 hours.

 

Oooooh boy, have you ever been to 117?

[green9090]

"rushing" dg's. (Jagex said large dungeons take 2-3 hours lol)

 

You cannot be serious.

 

Even the worst teams don't even take 2 hours.

There are people who like to exhaust every resource in the entire dungeon in order to outfit everyone with a full set of armor (sometimes multiple sets) and stock the home room with absurd amounts of extra food. They also like to kill every monster including those in dead ends. I've never stuck with a team that's actually done this- either I get fed up and leave or enough of the team agrees with me to overrule their insanity- but I imagine it takes a few hours.

 

People with this brand of compulsive behavior will more often than not cuss you out for not appreciating dungeoneering as Jagex intended and just rushing through. The scary part is that they may be right- Jagex is pretty spectacularly clueless about stuff like this.

[Danqazmlp]

The above few posts, you are getting off topic and are basically going into the efficiency debate which has no place on this thread.

 

On topic, I can see what gollvellius is getting at, but from a different light. What Jagex describes IS both emergent gameplay AND roleplaying in different occasions. Just because that is, also does not mean all the things everybody else is saying are not, as they are too. Strictly speaking, anything you do which is not playing content exactly how a developer expected is emergent, such as playing a quest line, training a skill, playing a mini-game. Honestly, do you guys argue just for the sake of arguing?

 

Thinking outside the box is the main focus for many players. Some will follow the trend and do what everybody else does, killing monsters, getting money, getting exp, but some find that ultimately boring. That does not mean the game should be over for them. Having an imagination grants people the opportunity to make their own fun out of the game. One person's fun is another person's hell, but nobody has the right to say theirs is better than the others.

[green9090]

No, a good portion of what's in that blog is quite simply not emergent gameplay. For example, tossing gnomeballs at each other is the only conceivable use for gnomeballs. There is no way playing catch with a gnomeball is emergent gameplay by any stretch.

 

By the tone and content of the blog it's abundantly clear that Jagex has confused emergent gameplay and roleplaying, which are absolutely separate terms.

[Danqazmlp]

No, a good portion of what's in that blog is quite simply not emergent gameplay. For example, tossing gnomeballs at each other is the only conceivable use for gnomeballs. There is no way playing catch with a gnomeball is emergent gameplay by any stretch.

 

By the tone and content of the blog it's abundantly clear that Jagex has confused emergent gameplay and roleplaying, which are absolutely separate terms.

 

 

But making a game out of tossing the ball to each other is emergent. Even here, people are not thinking outside the box. Use your imagination.

[BeNiceOk]

Another thing you need to consider is role playing IS emergent game play.

 

POH were not particularly designed for any of the content they described, so while making a hotel out of your house is role-playing, it is emergent game play too.

 

Jagex endorses emergent gameplay that DOES NOT give player advantages. Only the emergent gameplay that gives advantages, are things Jagex consider to remove.

 

This is why they endorse making a hotel out of a POH, and remove gameplay such as using house options to keep an overload boosted for 10+ minutes.

 

EDIT: Also there is much to much hate going on though this thread. I am one of those players who enjoy's role playing and the type of emergent game play described in the article. If you think it's fair to flame people who do this type of activity, then it would be perfectly fine for me to do the same to activities you like. We should just remove boss hunting and PvP all together, nobody kills them anyways?

[BioIce]

Emergent gameplay is intentionally tying in Stealing Creation.

It is splitting the altars in 50-50 for the Great Orb Project.

Constantly letting level 3s leech in dungeoneering to get 40-50k+ exp in f2p is emergent gameplay.

76k tricking in pvp - or whatever 'k it is now - is yet another example.

Merchant manipulation clans/corporations too.

Creating mules in classic because your main didn't have enough room is emergent gameplay.

 

Jagex-hosted events are not emergent while one of the weird tip.it hosted events like cabbagebombing in the TET would be a good example. Cryptic Clues and Oktoberfest are absolutely not emergent gameplay. They're just events.

 

Emergent gameplay must come from the players, otherwise you can't really call it "emergent."

It must arise out of the dark from the players, like putting a hand in a bag that isn't yours, but you'd really like to put your hand in that bag because there's a purse with a load of money in it and "we're starvin', we really are, guv!" and sooner or later the real owner will become aware you have your hand in it and all you can do is hope she doesn't scream harassment or kick you in the nadgers. :ohnoes:

 

 

Playing the game in ways Jagex hasn't thought of is emergent gameplay. Often that means it's against the spirit of the game. Going by the wikipedia definition, the examples I mention are under unintentional emergent gameplay. And there is a lot of that which Jagex does not like. Some of the examples in the blog would fall under the other kind of emergent gameplay.

 

The Jagex blog has it half-right and half-wrong. :rolleyes:

[Peronix]

Emergent gameplay to me is when a dev leaves a glitch or unintended feature in the game because there is no official alternative to it yet. Like in Minecraft, where people abuse a glitch in the physics of minecarts to create booster tracks (which have been used in extraordinarily complex creations like minecart stations) to accelerate minecarts to max speed. The developer has officially stated that he won't be fixing this bug until he can provide an official alternative. He says he finds it a bit silly, but if the players like it he won't remove it until he can replace it.

 

I'm pretty sure if it were Jagex they'd remove it immediately, possibly ban some for bug abuse, and then a year later provide some crappy, impractical alternative if they even thought to do that at all.

[Jehosaphat]

Emergent gameplay is when players find out interesting stuff about the game and use it for purposes not obviously intended by the developer. Such as 50/50ing in ANY minigame, playing SC skiller-only games for more tools per hour, using a cannon in non-multi via safespotting... The list goes on. But what Jagex has listed here is NOT emergent gameplay; it's just roleplay. I mean, what's so special about wrestling matches in a POH? Besides the added lols to your day, they include nothing that wasn't obviously intended by the developer. Playing a game of catch with a gnomeball? Well, that's just what it was intended for. Perhaps Jagex thinks of emergent gameplay is using stuff the developers intentionally put in for more amusement. Essentially, a definition that could be metaphorically aligned with "That's what SHE said" jokes.

 

 

TL;DR: Jagex needs to learn what emergent gameplay actually means. Then they can write an article on it. Until then, it seems to be the same old Derpgex.

[Danqazmlp]

Emergent gameplay is when players find out interesting stuff about the game and use it for purposes not obviously intended by the developer. Such as 50/50ing in ANY minigame, playing SC skiller-only games for more tools per hour, using a cannon in non-multi via safespotting... The list goes on. But what Jagex has listed here is NOT emergent gameplay; it's just roleplay. I mean, what's so special about wrestling matches in a POH? Besides the added lols to your day, they include nothing that wasn't obviously intended by the developer. Playing a game of catch with a gnomeball? Well, that's just what it was intended for. Perhaps Jagex thinks of emergent gameplay is using stuff the developers intentionally put in for more amusement. Essentially, a definition that could be metaphorically aligned with "That's what SHE said" jokes.

 

 

TL;DR: Jagex needs to learn what emergent gameplay actually means. Then they can write an article on it. Until then, it seems to be the same old Derpgex.

 

 

Again, as it seems too many are doing here, Emergent doesn't have to be something that makes the goal of the game come faster (levels, money etc) which is all you listed. the way you are interoperating what has been said is that a gnomeball is just thrown between two people, cannot be emergent as it was developed like that. But that is NOT what people do and what Jagex is talking about in the article. A group of peoplg actually making a ball game with the gnomeball IS emergent gameplay. You are using no imagination and dumbing down everything to its most basic form when emergent gameplay won't happen. I can do exactly the same thing with what you say, you are just using a cannon, you are just playing the mini-games. Jagex implemented them, therefore they are not emergent.

 

 

I'd also like to say that many people don't seem to even be reading the article. They just seem to rage at anything Jagex assuming they say one thing, when they are saying another. This article is basically a report about what Jmods have seen PLAYERS do. These PLAYERS have then come to events and told Jagex about them. It isn't Jagex inventing things for you to do. A majority of these things are community driven, such as the wrestling tournaments.

[TheAncient]

My immediate impression is that jagex is pretty pathetic for suggesting this...

[Emmentail]

People people.. You're missing the most important thing about this devblog.

 

Jagex want us to make nightclubs, filled with booze, scantily clad women, and that one girl who can't hold her drink throwing up chunks in the corner. :rolleyes:

[Grimy_Bunyip]

Again, as it seems too many are doing here, Emergent doesn't have to be something that makes the goal of the game come faster (levels, money etc) which is all you listed. the way you are interoperating what has been said is that a gnomeball is just thrown between two people, cannot be emergent as it was developed like that. But that is NOT what people do and what Jagex is talking about in the article. A group of peoplg actually making a ball game with the gnomeball IS emergent gameplay. You are using no imagination and dumbing down everything to its most basic form when emergent gameplay won't happen. I can do exactly the same thing with what you say, you are just using a cannon, you are just playing the mini-games. Jagex implemented them, therefore they are not emergent.

 

 

I'd also like to say that many people don't seem to even be reading the article. They just seem to rage at anything Jagex assuming they say one thing, when they are saying another. This article is basically a report about what Jmods have seen PLAYERS do. These PLAYERS have then come to events and told Jagex about them. It isn't Jagex inventing things for you to do. A majority of these things are community driven, such as the wrestling tournaments.

I don't think anybody here actually denies the existence of the activities Jagex mentioned.

 

But they represent an extremely tiny portion of emergent gameplay.

the fact of the matter is, most emergent gameplay that makes goals of the game come faster, as that form of emergent gameplay provides a more tangible benefit, and appeals to more gamers.

 

this form of emergent gameplay is distinctly missing from the article, and ignoring it speaks poorly of Jagex' understanding of their players.

 

A lot of the players gave examples of things that benefit goals, merely because that is the most common form of emergent gameplay. It doesn't mean other forms of emergent gameplay do not exist.

 

on a separate note:

Why would people making a ball game out of a gnomeball be emergent gameplay? Jagex let players throw it around outside of the gnomeball arena for a reason didnt they?

Emergent gameplay would be using the gnomeball to lure players and snipe their Phats in the wilderness.

Something that is clearly not intended.

[Danqazmlp]

My immediate impression is that jagex is pretty pathetic for suggesting this...

 

 

But they are not really suggesting anything...

 

Maybe they gave it the wrong name calling it a DevBlog which is confusing people? It is a community spotlight. A report on what players are currently doing. The only suggestion is maybe to join them if you like the look of it, however they do not openly say that as far as I can see. It is a straight up report.

 

 

Edit: To Above:

 

This is not a report on emergent gameplay. It is a report on the communities on the forums which use a form of emergent gameplay. As for the tangible benefits appealing to more gamers, that may be true, but it does not mean the for being reported on is not fun for some people. Why should they be ignored?

 

If you want a straight up report or article on emergent gameplay, I would suggest you write something for the Tip.it times, but the community management team at Jagex focuses on communities based around their forums.

 

To your separate note, it would be emergent because Jagex did not impliment it for tournaments, more for a reward to keep after the minigame that can be thrown to another. What players do with it after that is up to them.

[Grimy_Bunyip]

This is not a report on emergent gameplay. It is a report on the communities on the forums which use a form of emergent gameplay. As for the tangible benefits appealing to more gamers, that may be true, but it does not mean the for being reported on is not fun for some people. Why should they be ignored?

 

If you want a straight up report or article on emergent gameplay, I would suggest you write something for the Tip.it times, but the community management team at Jagex focuses on communities based around their forums.

The very fact that they called it an emergent gameplay report is what is ticking players off.

There is a lot of pent up energy from players, due to the fact that Jagex tends to ignore goal based emergent gameplay.

Then they make a dev blog called emergent gameplay, and address something completely unrelated.

It's very insulting to the players who do use goal based emergent gameplay.

Because yet again, their form of emergent gameplay has been ignored.

Flaunting it as a dev blog just rubs salt in the wound. Nobody likes being ignored over and over and over.

 

You're right, there's nothing wrong with the dev blog if we interpret it as a report on communities.

But that's not why people are angry.

 

To your separate note, it would be emergent because Jagex did not impliment it for tournaments, more for a reward to keep after the minigame that can be thrown to another. What players do with it after that is up to them.

Neither of us can know that with a reasonable degree of certainty.

Are you asking me to believe that a game designer deliberately made a gnomeball reward that could be thrown around, and did not consider the possibility of player made games being formed by it?

Sure it's possible, but I'd never wager my money on that sort of possibility.

[Bladewing]

that's like saying jagex created logs with a burn option, and when you chop a tree you get the log and what the player does with the log is up to them

 

here are a few examples of emergent gameplay i think could have been stated (but were not):

 

alching while stunning

hunter kit while string jewelry

offer-x with yak and using take-bob (fixed)

using rune thrownaxe on KQ (fixed)

one-clicking sorceress' garden

use of ice-blitz to stack hits (fixed)

fletching bolts while firemaking/fishing/woodcutting

alching while firemaking/fishing/woodcutting

manipulation by buyouts

street prices

 

as well as others, of course.