Tip.It Times - 31st October 2010

[Sir_Kurity]

When this skill first came out a lot people hated it. And some of them still do. Simply because its different and because they cant mindlessly grind it 24/7 to get that shiny new cape.

 

Thats a biased assumption. Many people, i included, "hate" it because they simply dislike the mechanics of the minigame. Quite frankly its quite dull and boring for me and i would much rather spend my time in castle wars or SC, plus until GGSes came out more than half the time was spent traversing empty rooms to open a door on the other side of the map. This isnt even mentioning the constant lag.

[Bartuccio3]

[spoiler=Off-topic rant]

I still don't like Dungeoneering as a skill. The thing that frustrates me is the dependency on other players to train it efficiently.

 

You realize you're playing an MMORPG right? Hint: Break down the first three letters.

 

If you refuse to play with other people, just stick to single player games.

 

Most MMO games make soloing optional. This means it is a perfectly valid expectation in such games to be able to play without relying on others for clearing out game content.

 

How is it still an MMO if people all chose to solo their experience grind, you might ask? All playing on the same servers, we have to compete for resources in persistent environments and there is an active economy due to the fact we can exchange harvested resources amongst each other.

 

Another aspect of MMO games that you obviously neglect is direct competition between players, not over server resources, but against each other, be it through a PvP activity or through verbal argument.

• Disruptive community members drive others away from the community, so often a soloer may just be some kid who's sick of being trolled constantly for not having other people's idea of a perfect setup for his own account; on the converse, there exists content in many games which is so unbalanced/overpowered, your character becomes a god and it is then a waste of time to group with others as you're not doing anything faster than you could manage on your own.
  
• As PvP is concerned, particularly with combat, there will often be 1v1 scenarios: what good is your cooperative team when you can't rely on their aid to solve your problems?
  

To say teaming in MMOs is always necessary or that social aspects can't turn people away from grouping is downright hypocritical unless you're playing some watered-down garbage designed around the concept of a children's show, such as Barney.

 

Honestly it's pretty disgusting that you would tell people to quit just because they don't enjoy being dragged down by others that either aren't as good at the game as them, or needlessly insult them, or that wouldn't be accepting of combining real-life responsibilities with gameplay. Just because somebody doesn't have the time or consistency to be devout to a sub-community doesn't mean they should quit the game altogether.

 

Tl;dr: MMO doesn't mean "forced party grinding game", it just means there is a ridiculously large amount of people that all affect each others' gameplay in some way.

 

Sorry that this seemed a little off-topic and wordy, I'm just very opinionated and easily take offence at people telling me my method of playing a game, which is within the design and so-called "spirit" of the game, is entirely invalid just because I don't do something frivolous with no impact on gameplay: in this case training alongside random strangers simply for the sake of surrounding myself with random people.

 

 

I suppose that if you look at my little rant here, it could be considered on-topic if the developers decided to look through this, consider the current state of solo dungeoneering, and rebalance the skill to be equally fast experience in any size team: the way I interpreted it, the entire second article was about the new skill being training without grinding, however the terrible teams one finds themself in during early levels can be excruciatingly painful due to others' inability to educate themselves on the best ways to do something; I don't mind a dungeon being slowed 2-5 minutes because somebody needs to take care of some regular everyday function irl, but if I'm being dragged through floors slowly enough that I could get faster xp by soloing because people are wasting time with unnecessary tasks, for example making 5 full sets of armor after everybody is already more than adequately equipped, it just gets annoying and tedious, and doesn't feel like the fast-paced dungeon crawl many players expect. I thoroughly enjoy the skill when I have a competent team, but can't stand it the majority of the time due to the general crappiness of groups available to my low dungeoneering level, so I get stuck soloing, which is worse than grinding since it's a reduced experience rate not for making the dungeon as a whole less difficult (as they scale to the abilities of the player(s) involved,) but instead simply because I chose to go it alone. If facades, false socialization, and muttering curses under your breath are brought on by an activity in a game, you're obviously not enjoying it and only doing it for the end result, which I believe everybody could agree on as a general definition for grinding.

[Emerson]

I must say, I agree with Bart; although my beef with grouping is mainly social.

 

I'm not a fan of group dungeoneering for three reasons:

 

1) I'll do it on my own time.

I have a hellish schedual and I don't want to have to worry about who gets on and when to find a leet group of dungeon delvers. Nor do I wish to be bound by their codes/requirements

 

2) communication is a big issue

with lag, and chat restrictions (ie length/speed of text) I find that actively and effectively communicating with someone without voip is almost impossible. The only people I ever dungeon with would be my roommate or a friend I cam skype with.

 

3) trust/friendship

I don't like people. Period. Having random people go dungeoneering with me generally just bothers me because, for the most part, they either have different methods and criticise me for it, or are unfamiliar with how to dungeon. I also move at my own pace and don't want someone trying to rush me or hold me back. Also, people leaving is a big deal and if it's my friends i'll be able to understand why and how soon they'll get back (see point two)

[konzserwas]

Thanks for the feedback guys, especially the bad one (good feedback is pleasing, but useless). Keep in mind that this was my first article ever, so things just can't be very smooth :rolleyes:

[Ts_Stormrage]

You did FINE!! :thumbup:

 

you too emerson :D

[Obtaurian]

Since when does combat not involve grinding?

 

Since slayer was released.

 

A scenery change doesn't make it any more or less of a grind.

 

Slayer monsters are not all the same, FYI.

 

1. I think killing stuff is inherently fun.

2. I think MASSACRING stuff with a steel titan/cannon/extremes is even more fun.

 

My original response was mostly facetious, as I realize that not everyone likes slayer. However, I would hardly call slayer a grind. Combat is the only thing that I actually enjoy doing in Runescape, so I've never felt like I was grinding while slaying.

[Racheya]

my point is a small one, but it is that the editor, knowing that the majority of readers prefer content articles to fictionals, should have put them in the right order.

 

imagine if your newspaper put advertisements and want ads only on the front page? yes some people do enjoy advertisements and want ads first and foremost, but the majority want the news first.

Since it's Halloween, in the holiday spirit, we chose to put a cheerful fictional article out first rather than the same old editorials: I do hope you forgive us for wanting people to smile :)

 

Also Guest articles are almost ALWAYS never going to be featured - our own articles always take precedence.

 

I really enjoyed Emerson's article and the guest article was very well written :)

[3doorsdown]

Fictional articles - the thing I appreciate most about them is the cleverness of the various authors and the aspects of runescape they focus on through linkages of word and theme choices. It's the styles they use that I enjoy reading.

 

Dungeoneering - tried it once in a group and once alone, didn't like it either time so I've not been back. It has a very 2 dimensional feel to it, which for me is so out of character with the rest of Runescape. Perhaps I've just been spoilt too much playing other team based games.

 

You can do most things by yourself on Runescape, if I lost that game aspect then I would probably stop paying to play. Everything is a grind if you have no focus on an outcome. If you have that focus then nothing is a grind.

[Sir_Kurity]

Slayer monsters are not all the same, FYI.

 

Of course, but it gets to the point where you have a predefined formula for every slayer monster and its really not that variable.

 

1. I think killing stuff is inherently fun.

2. I think MASSACRING stuff with a steel titan/cannon/extremes is even more fun.

 

I think killing stuff is relatively fun as well, but its pretty much the same for me, slayer monster or no slayer monster.

 

In the limited slayer i did it was pretty much just moving from monster A to monster B with full inventory of food and laughing at how cheap safespots are.

 

My original response was mostly facetious, as I realize that not everyone likes slayer. However, I would hardly call slayer a grind. Combat is the only thing that I actually enjoy doing in Runescape, so I've never felt like I was grinding while slaying.

 

PVP, quests, and some minigames (mostly the PVP related ones) is the only thing i actually enjoy in runescape, everything else feels like a grind if its done to excess.

 

Though i can see how making monsters literally fall apart around you would be interesting, personally ive never got to this level in slayer/combat and probably never will so i can't really comment on how fun slayer is at higher levels.

[Assume Nothing]

Slayer monsters are not all the same, FYI.

 

Of course, but it gets to the point where you have a predefined formula for every slayer monster and its really not that variable.

 

1. I think killing stuff is inherently fun.

2. I think MASSACRING stuff with a steel titan/cannon/extremes is even more fun.

 

I think killing stuff is relatively fun as well, but its pretty much the same for me, slayer monster or no slayer monster.

 

In the limited slayer i did it was pretty much just moving from monster A to monster B with full inventory of food and laughing at how cheap safespots are.

 

My original response was mostly facetious, as I realize that not everyone likes slayer. However, I would hardly call slayer a grind. Combat is the only thing that I actually enjoy doing in Runescape, so I've never felt like I was grinding while slaying.

 

PVP, quests, and some minigames (mostly the PVP related ones) is the only thing i actually enjoy in runescape, everything else feels like a grind if its done to excess.

 

Though i can see how making monsters literally fall apart around you would be interesting, personally ive never got to this level in slayer/combat and probably never will so i can't really comment on how fun slayer is at higher levels.

 

I agree with the PvP part of your response. You can never get too much of it, really.

 

On Topic; I'm not sure what to base my "Guest" article on, really. What's a good topic to start out on?

[konzserwas]

On Topic; I'm not sure what to base my "Guest" article on, really. What's a good topic to start out on?

 

I've been thinking about writing something about the not-so-rare opinion that RS will get closed soon. A lot of stuff to cover there, like lack of new players, Stellar Dawn, Jagex' stated plans, etc., could be a hell of an article if you go deep enough. You can use that if you want to.

[Emerson]

I've been thinking about writing something about the not-so-rare opinion that RS will get closed soon. A lot of stuff to cover there, like lack of new players, Stellar Dawn, Jagex' stated plans, etc., could be a hell of an article if you go deep enough. You can use that if you want to.

 

Jagex, to put it simply, makes way too much money to want to close runescape anytime in the near future. The only circumstances under which I can see them making that decision are either java goes under, the internet stops being used (lol), or over a gradual amount of time their member base reaches a critical threshold where they no longer break even... which would have to be pretty low seeing as they don't have that many developers and server space can't cost all that much.

[konzserwas]

I've been thinking about writing something about the not-so-rare opinion that RS will get closed soon. A lot of stuff to cover there, like lack of new players, Stellar Dawn, Jagex' stated plans, etc., could be a hell of an article if you go deep enough. You can use that if you want to.

 

Jagex, to put it simply, makes way too much money to want to close runescape anytime in the near future. The only circumstances under which I can see them making that decision are either java goes under, the internet stops being used (lol), or over a gradual amount of time their member base reaches a critical threshold where they no longer break even... which would have to be pretty low seeing as they don't have that many developers and server space can't cost all that much.

 

I know. Still, I think that would make a good article, but you'd have to do a lot of research for it and analyze things waaaay deeper than I did in this article :ohnoes:

[Fellfrosch6]

The problem with Dungeoneering isn't that you can't solo effectively. The problem is that matchmaking isn't efficient enough yet.

 

This is partly because people insist on shouting out things like "F1-10!!!!!!!" in the main lobby rather than using the more convenient auto-grouping rooms. I mean, the majority of DG'ers probably don't need to stick to any ultra-specific settings and the ones who do are probably part of a clan or already have their set group of DG'ing mates.

 

Jagex really needs to make auto-grouping more efficient and add more sorting selections like Rushing. Dungeoneering is easily the best skill in the game because there is a very minimal grind to it and it is a lot of fun doing large dungeons with 5 people. Really requires skill to complete floors efficiently and maximize XP. However, grouping is such a pain.

 

I just wish more people used the auto-grouping rooms rather than shouting for options in the lobby. So pointless especially when most of the people are looking for options that the auto-grouping rooms provide. The stupidity of the RuneScape population is quite startling sometimes...

 

Some of it is kind of Jagex's fault, the grouping system really isn't very effective either. But yeah as long as Jagex makes finding dung teams easier dung would become so much more fun.

 

Can anyone truly say that? I mean, I can't remember ONCE where there were ever enough people in the auto-grouping rooms to even check whether they worked well or not. In the smaller Daemonheim castle as well as the current Daemonheim castle. Right from the beginning of Dungeoneering, people resorted to shouting out team requests.

 

I've tried many times on smaller, more manageable worlds to try to get people to join a grouping room (including the big free-for-all room which everyone can join). Nobody ever does and they keep on shouting for teams instead. Quite irritating to be honest.

[ghjkl]

So are you saying that people should join these auto grouping rooms and be paired up with idiot lvl 50s?

[Ts_Stormrage]

So are you saying that people should join these auto grouping rooms and be paired up with idiot lvl 50s?

 

I THINK she is saying that this may be more effective than standing around for hours shouting for the perfect group you want...

[ghjkl]

Getting a team takes like 5 minutes at the most.

[Fellfrosch6]

So are you saying that people should join these auto grouping rooms and be paired up with idiot lvl 50s?

 

I THINK she is saying that this may be more effective than standing around for hours shouting for the perfect group you want...

 

That's exactly what I'm saying. And it's HE. :P

 

Oh, and who knows how fast it takes when the auto-grouping rooms are actually used. No one uses them! And on that note, no one has any right or knowledge to say that they suck because there's never enough people in there to even test whether it's good or not.

[Obtaurian]

So are you saying that people should join these auto grouping rooms and be paired up with idiot lvl 50s?

 

I THINK she is saying that this may be more effective than standing around for hours shouting for the perfect group you want...

 

That's exactly what I'm saying. And it's HE. :P

 

Oh, and who knows how fast it takes when the auto-grouping rooms are actually used. No one uses them! And on that note, no one has any right or knowledge to say that they suck because there's never enough people in there to even test whether it's good or not.

 

On the contrary - if everyone used the autogrouping system, you'd have a guaranteed chance of getting at least one (likely four) awful teammates. No exceptions. Good dungeoneers wouldn't use them, and that's a fact.

[Fellfrosch6]

So are you saying that people should join these auto grouping rooms and be paired up with idiot lvl 50s?

 

I THINK she is saying that this may be more effective than standing around for hours shouting for the perfect group you want...

 

That's exactly what I'm saying. And it's HE. :P

 

Oh, and who knows how fast it takes when the auto-grouping rooms are actually used. No one uses them! And on that note, no one has any right or knowledge to say that they suck because there's never enough people in there to even test whether it's good or not.

 

On the contrary - if everyone used the autogrouping system, you'd have a guaranteed chance of getting at least one (likely four) awful teammates. No exceptions. Good dungeoneers wouldn't use them, and that's a fact.

 

But the majority of players and Dungeoneers are casual games who are simply looking for an efficient way to group together and PLAY. Having to go through an arduous process of advertising your wants, then getting other players to trade you, then joining/adding, them then repeating 3 more times for a full team is just too much hastle for the majority gamer. Not to mention, it only increases the irritation when you go through all of that and realize that one or more of your teammates have no idea what to do or one of them quits and jeopardizes your team and floor.

 

And honestly, even if you do it manually, you can never know how someone actually plays by looking at their skills or anything. You can have people with high levels in everything but if they can't dungeoneer, they can't dungeoneer. Nothing except for playing with them can tell you how good of a teammate they are.

 

And you are right that Good dungeoneers wouldn't use the auto-group rooms. They also won't advertise in the main lobby for random teammates. People who need elite teammates will usually have their own set of dungeoneering friends or a clan that they're part of. Such people who do high level floors and are looking to completely and efficiently maximize XP and speed RARELY rely on the main lobby to find teammates because they already know that it's going to be slim pickings for sharp teammates. So you can't really include the elite dungeoneers when it comes to the "Lobby shouting vs. Auto-group rooms" debate.

[Obtaurian]

So instead of people handpicking POTENTIALLY good teammates, you want people to be auto-grouped with terrible teammates right off the bat? People stand around shouting because they want to be able to choose their teammates based on various factors. I can guarantee you that a 130 with 80 dungeoneering has a FAR better chance of being a good dungeoneer than a level 50 with 40 dungeoneering. Auto-grouping would actually increase the amount of time you spend looking for teams and completing floors due to both quitters and genuinely terrible players.

[ghjkl]

Go to world 117, advertise a floor and pick the first 4 people that trade you. Tell me how long that floor takes. Now compare that to good teams that will take 30 minutes to do a floor on average. Is it worth it to spend the extra 5 minutes picking a team?

[Bartuccio3]

Go to world 117, advertise a floor and pick the first 4 people that trade you. Tell me how long that floor takes. Now compare that to good teams that will take 30 minutes to do a floor on average. Is it worth it to spend the extra 5 minutes picking a team?

 

I'd say a rough estimate for an average 117 team is 1.5-3 hours per large, which is absolutely terrible. Being picky about your team-mates is like adding countless hours onto your life when you consider this.

[Obtaurian]

Go to world 117, advertise a floor and pick the first 4 people that trade you. Tell me how long that floor takes. Now compare that to good teams that will take 30 minutes to do a floor on average. Is it worth it to spend the extra 5 minutes picking a team?

 

I'd say a rough estimate for an average 117 team is 1.5-3 hours per large, which is absolutely terrible. Being picky about your team-mates is like adding countless hours onto your life when you consider this.

 

I would argue that soloing medium floors is far more efficient than using 117 if you have no other options. :P

[Fellfrosch6]

So instead of people handpicking POTENTIALLY good teammates, you want people to be auto-grouped with terrible teammates right off the bat? People stand around shouting because they want to be able to choose their teammates based on various factors. I can guarantee you that a 130 with 80 dungeoneering has a FAR better chance of being a good dungeoneer than a level 50 with 40 dungeoneering. Auto-grouping would actually increase the amount of time you spend looking for teams and completing floors due to both quitters and genuinely terrible players.

 

Who do you know that you'll only be grouped with bad teammates?? It could match you with good teammates just like doing it manually. Almost no one has tried it so nobody knows for sure.

 

And you're also assuming that the system only matches based on dungeoneering stats. Who knows how it actually works and whether it will always match you with bad teammates or get you good ones? NO ONE HAS USED IT. That's my point. Because people like you seem to have a preconceived notion that auto-grouping automatically sucks because it will only group you with bad teammates. Why people can't give it a chance is beyond me.