Dungeoneering Shields Discussion

[Boeg3]

This thread was made to discuss the Chaotic kiteshield, Farseer kiteshield and Eagle-eye kitshield.

 

An equation to calculate damage recieved with Dungeoneering shields.

 

14%: 0.86x+28=y (x=original damage; y=damage taken)

7%: 0.93x+28=y (x=original damage; y=damage taken)

Credit to ihuffovloads for the equation.

[Guest TrixStar]

I've considered binding guardian ward with my primal baxe and hood but haven't gotten the drop since I could bind 3 items.

[Gandalf14141]

I've heard that in the long run the spirit shields are by far A LOT better

 

EDIT: Is this about the dung rewards or the shields within the dungeons?

[ghjkl]

I've considered binding guardian ward with my primal baxe and hood but haven't gotten the drop since I could bind 3 items.

No point imo. Just bind a plate, use an anti drag shield.

[Boeg3]

I've considered binding guardian ward with my primal baxe and hood but haven't gotten the drop since I could bind 3 items.

Not exactly what we were supposed to discuss; but lets go for it!

You have to consider if the superior melee and ranged defence of the primal platebody, could make it a better option than the ward.

The ward has decent maged defence.

 

With both platebody and ward, if only 1 style was attacking you, you would pray against that style.

With the Platebody you would pray against magic in a dangerous room with all 3 styles.

With ward you wouldn't know what to pray against

 

as for the ward beeing a shield that works with the "tank ring" - its very easy to find an antifire shield

[green9090]

I've considered binding guardian ward with my primal baxe and hood but haven't gotten the drop since I could bind 3 items.

At the risk of offtopicing this thread to hell, don't do that. A primal (or promethium) plate has better defensive stats and you can use a tank ring just fine with a novite kite or antidragon shield from the first room. The only way it'd be worth it is if you're smithing armor every round anyway, which at your level you REALLY shouldn't be.

[Boeg3]

I've heard that in the long run the spirit shields are by far A LOT better

 

EDIT: Is this about the dung rewards or the shields within the dungeons?

Dung rewards; editted first post to clarify

[DyingSilent]

 

FKS is in NO way better than arcane. Even then +20 crush defense is worth more than the damage soak. Let alone the -15 loss in range defense and -3 loss in magic attack. Arcane totally outclasses FKS.

YES way....

Arcane shield advantages aren't great:

 

+3 magic attack (not very meaningful if you wear proper mage gear)

+20 crush defense (who cares if your maging somebody with a cmaul your gonna flip sol special anyway and thats about the only weapon people use with crush that is tier 1)

+3 prayer (I doubt you would notice it unless that the only prayer bonus you have)

0 range penalty (you range with it? why its for maging? Much better shields for that)

 

Arcane shields disadvantages are very significant:

 

No damage soak (this is significant because it stops the big hit ko's, I can't ever remember being koed on hit more than 200, probably because they coded it up wrong and apply the damage soak before figuring out if your dead or not)

worth 67mil more (huge waste of time making the money to buy or getting on a drop, 4mil/gp an hr is a myth)

 

I laughed. That's a good joke man

 

^ Exactly.

 

1. Your point about cost is absolutely wrong. You act as if Arcane's are 67m, and FSK's are free. WRONG. Learn how opportunity cost works. Even if you do consider FSK "free," it's tokens that could be used on other things. You can sell an Arcane back, you can't get a refund on your DG tokens.

 

2. Nobody uses SoL spec LOL. If you're a proper brid, you bring a spec weapon, claws/dds at least. People fight to kill, not to survive. 4 DDS/2 Claw specs go a lot further than blocking half a maul hit for 60 seconds in a fight. When people realise their melee attacks are halved, they will switch. That's what brids do. SWITCH. The only time I could see using a SoL special is when you are only maging. And nobody does that...It's too easily defended against. D'hide + magic protect, and your "only mage" setup just hit a brick wall.

 

3. As stated by people before, the soaks are barely noticeable. What difference does it make if you get hit a 500 or a 482(forget the actual value, but it was around this)? Either way, if your lp is that low, you're DEAD regardless.

 

Try taking a trip outside of Soul Wars once in a while, things are a lot different in BH/PvP/Clan Wars.

DyingSilent just ripped you to pieces.

 

Since we're devoting a thread to this discussion, i'll post this from the actual update thread to get the ball rolling here.

[Obtaurian]

These shields need to have a static damage reduction. They should be comparable to or worse than the elysian. /my two cents

 

They're basically just for show the way they are now. The only people I see with them are 100+ dungeoneering.

[Boeg3]

 

 

FKS is in NO way better than arcane. Even then +20 crush defense is worth more than the damage soak. Let alone the -15 loss in range defense and -3 loss in magic attack. Arcane totally outclasses FKS.

YES way....

Arcane shield advantages aren't great:

 

+3 magic attack (not very meaningful if you wear proper mage gear)

+20 crush defense (who cares if your maging somebody with a cmaul your gonna flip sol special anyway and thats about the only weapon people use with crush that is tier 1)

+3 prayer (I doubt you would notice it unless that the only prayer bonus you have)

0 range penalty (you range with it? why its for maging? Much better shields for that)

 

Arcane shields disadvantages are very significant:

 

No damage soak (this is significant because it stops the big hit ko's, I can't ever remember being koed on hit more than 200, probably because they coded it up wrong and apply the damage soak before figuring out if your dead or not)

worth 67mil more (huge waste of time making the money to buy or getting on a drop, 4mil/gp an hr is a myth)

 

I laughed. That's a good joke man

 

^ Exactly.

 

1. Your point about cost is absolutely wrong. You act as if Arcane's are 67m, and FSK's are free. WRONG. Learn how opportunity cost works. Even if you do consider FSK "free," it's tokens that could be used on other things. You can sell an Arcane back, you can't get a refund on your DG tokens.

 

2. Nobody uses SoL spec LOL. If you're a proper brid, you bring a spec weapon, claws/dds at least. People fight to kill, not to survive. 4 DDS/2 Claw specs go a lot further than blocking half a maul hit for 60 seconds in a fight. When people realise their melee attacks are halved, they will switch. That's what brids do. SWITCH. The only time I could see using a SoL special is when you are only maging. And nobody does that...It's too easily defended against. D'hide + magic protect, and your "only mage" setup just hit a brick wall.

 

3. As stated by people before, the soaks are barely noticeable. What difference does it make if you get hit a 500 or a 482(forget the actual value, but it was around this)? Either way, if your lp is that low, you're DEAD regardless.

 

Try taking a trip outside of Soul Wars once in a while, things are a lot different in BH/PvP/Clan Wars.

 

DyingSilent just ripped you to pieces.

 

Since we're devoting a thread to this discussion, i'll post this from the actual update thread to get the ball rolling here.

 

Off topic: i like how you editted that^ into your sig :thumbsup:

[TheAncient]

Govelltroll will be govelltroll

 

ANYWAY yeah, just to reiterate from my last post, the average damage reduction is like 1-3%. VERY VERY SMALL. if you want, i can show you the math.

[Boeg3]

These shields need to have a static damage reduction. They should be comparable to or worse than the elysian. /my two cents

 

They're basically just for show the way they are now. The only people I see with them are 100+ dungeoneering.

 

..Which probably got them before this update came about

I am sooo happy i decided not to get any dung shields

 

The shields DOES however reduce damage by a reasonable amount - if its a high hit

as an example: a 700 hit would get reduced by 10%

 

0.86(700)+28=630

[DyingSilent]

 

 

FKS is in NO way better than arcane. Even then +20 crush defense is worth more than the damage soak. Let alone the -15 loss in range defense and -3 loss in magic attack. Arcane totally outclasses FKS.

YES way....

Arcane shield advantages aren't great:

 

+3 magic attack (not very meaningful if you wear proper mage gear)

+20 crush defense (who cares if your maging somebody with a cmaul your gonna flip sol special anyway and thats about the only weapon people use with crush that is tier 1)

+3 prayer (I doubt you would notice it unless that the only prayer bonus you have)

0 range penalty (you range with it? why its for maging? Much better shields for that)

 

Arcane shields disadvantages are very significant:

 

No damage soak (this is significant because it stops the big hit ko's, I can't ever remember being koed on hit more than 200, probably because they coded it up wrong and apply the damage soak before figuring out if your dead or not)

worth 67mil more (huge waste of time making the money to buy or getting on a drop, 4mil/gp an hr is a myth)

 

I laughed. That's a good joke man

 

^ Exactly.

 

1. Your point about cost is absolutely wrong. You act as if Arcane's are 67m, and FSK's are free. WRONG. Learn how opportunity cost works. Even if you do consider FSK "free," it's tokens that could be used on other things. You can sell an Arcane back, you can't get a refund on your DG tokens.

 

2. Nobody uses SoL spec LOL. If you're a proper brid, you bring a spec weapon, claws/dds at least. People fight to kill, not to survive. 4 DDS/2 Claw specs go a lot further than blocking half a maul hit for 60 seconds in a fight. When people realise their melee attacks are halved, they will switch. That's what brids do. SWITCH. The only time I could see using a SoL special is when you are only maging. And nobody does that...It's too easily defended against. D'hide + magic protect, and your "only mage" setup just hit a brick wall.

 

3. As stated by people before, the soaks are barely noticeable. What difference does it make if you get hit a 500 or a 482(forget the actual value, but it was around this)? Either way, if your lp is that low, you're DEAD regardless.

 

Try taking a trip outside of Soul Wars once in a while, things are a lot different in BH/PvP/Clan Wars.

 

DyingSilent just ripped you to pieces.

 

Since we're devoting a thread to this discussion, i'll post this from the actual update thread to get the ball rolling here.

 

Off topic: i like how you editted that^ into your sig :thumbsup:

 

I felt the need to :^_^:

 

Anyway, let's get back on topic lol.

 

I was actually planning on getting an Eagle-eye kiteshield, as I figured it would negate quite a bit of damage at Bandos, especially. Not anymore #-o

[TheAncient]

 

 

FKS is in NO way better than arcane. Even then +20 crush defense is worth more than the damage soak. Let alone the -15 loss in range defense and -3 loss in magic attack. Arcane totally outclasses FKS.

YES way....

Arcane shield advantages aren't great:

 

+3 magic attack (not very meaningful if you wear proper mage gear)

+20 crush defense (who cares if your maging somebody with a cmaul your gonna flip sol special anyway and thats about the only weapon people use with crush that is tier 1)

+3 prayer (I doubt you would notice it unless that the only prayer bonus you have)

0 range penalty (you range with it? why its for maging? Much better shields for that)

 

Arcane shields disadvantages are very significant:

 

No damage soak (this is significant because it stops the big hit ko's, I can't ever remember being koed on hit more than 200, probably because they coded it up wrong and apply the damage soak before figuring out if your dead or not)

worth 67mil more (huge waste of time making the money to buy or getting on a drop, 4mil/gp an hr is a myth)

 

I laughed. That's a good joke man

 

^ Exactly.

 

1. Your point about cost is absolutely wrong. You act as if Arcane's are 67m, and FSK's are free. WRONG. Learn how opportunity cost works. Even if you do consider FSK "free," it's tokens that could be used on other things. You can sell an Arcane back, you can't get a refund on your DG tokens.

 

2. Nobody uses SoL spec LOL. If you're a proper brid, you bring a spec weapon, claws/dds at least. People fight to kill, not to survive. 4 DDS/2 Claw specs go a lot further than blocking half a maul hit for 60 seconds in a fight. When people realise their melee attacks are halved, they will switch. That's what brids do. SWITCH. The only time I could see using a SoL special is when you are only maging. And nobody does that...It's too easily defended against. D'hide + magic protect, and your "only mage" setup just hit a brick wall.

 

3. As stated by people before, the soaks are barely noticeable. What difference does it make if you get hit a 500 or a 482(forget the actual value, but it was around this)? Either way, if your lp is that low, you're DEAD regardless.

 

Try taking a trip outside of Soul Wars once in a while, things are a lot different in BH/PvP/Clan Wars.

 

DyingSilent just ripped you to pieces.

 

Since we're devoting a thread to this discussion, i'll post this from the actual update thread to get the ball rolling here.

 

Off topic: i like how you editted that^ into your sig :thumbsup:

 

I felt the need to :^_^:

 

Anyway, let's get back on topic lol.

 

I was actually planning on getting an Eagle-eye kiteshield, as I figured it would negate quite a bit of damage at Bandos, especially. Not anymore #-o

 

Spectral is a MUCH MUCH better choice

you dont lose it

higher magic defense

no degrade cost

[Boeg3]

How much damage would the Eagle-eye have to soak, before it would be worth it?

Anyone knows the Magic and melee max hit of Kree-arra + minions?

 

Bestiary says Kree-arra's max with melee is ~500. Anyone knows the rest? Any qualified guess'?

[green9090]

How much damage would the Eagle-eye have to soak, before it would be worth it?

Anyone knows the Magic and melee max hit of Kree-arra + minions?

 

Bestiary says Kree-arra's max with melee is ~500. Anyone knows the rest? Any qualified guess'?

I believe the mage max hit is only 300, which is a max absorption of 14 (300 becomes 286). Melee doesn't really matter- it doesn't soak melee damage and you only get meleed by the boss if you mess up anyway.

 

The more important difference between the shields isn't the 100% negligible damage absorption, but the tiny ranged attack bonus on the eagle eye verses the somewhat higher mage defense on the spectral. When you figure in the very significant repair costs on the eagle eye and the fact that you don't have to risk the spectral, I'd say the spectral is the overwhelmingly better choice.

[Zaaps1]

Clearly, everyone knows these Shields are worse than using any kind of other shield at practically every location. For most places, I'd much rather bring a defender of DFS, let alone a spirit shield (which I do not own :().

 

Not much discussion there, so instead, what can be done?

 

It was mentioned on the other thread that Jagex could've altered the shields a lot without making them better than the spirit shields. For example, they could've completely blown away the 200 damage rule.

[Star_Fox]

I've considered binding guardian ward with my primal baxe and hood but haven't gotten the drop since I could bind 3 items.

 

I never had the ward before but I prefer having pure melee defence like the pl8 so I could substitute the mage def with

prayer. Works wonders.

[green9090]

Clearly, everyone knows these Shields are worse than using any kind of other shield at practically every location. For most places, I'd much rather bring a defender of DFS, let alone a spirit shield (which I do not own :().

 

Not much discussion there, so instead, what can be done?

 

It was mentioned on the other thread that Jagex could've altered the shields a lot without making them better than the spirit shields. For example, they could've completely blown away the 200 damage rule.

A fixed 20/10% absorption would be perfectly balanced.

 

-The shields require level 80 in three stats (two for the CKS)

-They have a low alch value

-They must be repaired for a fairly significant amount of cash/tokens

-In some cases they have negative attack bonuses that discourage their use for hybrids

-They are each vulnerable to one corner of the combat triangle (unlike ely/divine)

-They are offensively unimpressive (excluding the farseer)

-They have almost exclusively lower stats to their alternatives

 

Plenty of drawbacks over existing shields to make them not the only choice, or even a better choice than ely/divine, while still making them significantly useful (I'd buy CKS and EEKS if they absorbed 20/10%).

 

But of course, Jagex goes for the "80 req worse than 75 req in every way" angle instead. Stupid.

[Gandalf14141]

The thing I see regarding the shields is if I were to put the time and effort into getting one, I would want to get a shield that would reduce damage, not degrade, and if need be, sell back. I can get all of this with the spirit shields and not the dungeoneering shields.

[xSxqPowerx]

The problem is that they only reduce the damage over 200. Once you take a hit over 200 they should reduce the entire hit by x%.

 

Instead of (300-200)*.14=reduction

It should just be (300)*.14=reduction

 

Still not better than divine/ely, but at least the damage reduction would be good for ko reducing in pvp, and sort of useful for pvm.

[Blutters]

I've had my heart set on the CKS for a while now for many reasons that don't really count here because they're more personal (the "fun argument") than anything else...

I would like to ask how one would justify buying Armadyl or Karil's instead of Black Dragonhide for a minimal advantage but completely count-out the CKS's 12-15 point lead in melee Defenses over its closest competitor, the DFS. Also, as per a comment on the other thread, apparently the damage soaking ability "counts" as about 10 more points of melee Defenses, so it's up to a 25 point lead (in each melee stat) over the DFS, which I feel is significant. This is obviousy purely for melee VS melee and melee VS Ranged, which isn't a problem in some particular situations.

My main personal niche reason for buying it is clotting at Castle Wars, if that matters.

 

I'd like to pose:

You can only really train Dungeoneering in one way, so there's not much of a cost VS cost type thing; if you're DG'ing for DG XP, how can you use the cost/hr efficiency argument? You're leveling Dungeoneering at the same time, so it might as well be said that you're training Dungeoneering as a main objective and gaining tokens on the side. I guess I just find it unfair to negate the importance of the DG XP you get in the examples of FKS VS ASS (lol).

 

(Wow lol I started writing this hours ago and just came back to it so yeah...)

[TheAncient]

I've had my heart set on the CKS for a while now for many reasons that don't really count here because they're more personal (the "fun argument") than anything else...

I would like to ask how one would justify buying Armadyl or Karil's instead of Black Dragonhide for a minimal advantage but completely count-out the CKS's 12-15 point lead in melee Defenses over its closest competitor, the DFS. Also, as per a comment on the other thread, apparently the damage soaking ability "counts" as about 10 more points of melee Defenses, so it's up to a 25 point lead (in each melee stat) over the DFS, which I feel is significant. This is obviousy purely for melee VS melee and melee VS Ranged, which isn't a problem in some particular situations.

My main personal niche reason for buying it is clotting at Castle Wars, if that matters.

 

I'd like to pose:

You can only really train Dungeoneering in one way, so there's not much of a cost VS cost type thing; if you're DG'ing for DG XP, how can you use the cost/hr efficiency argument? You're leveling Dungeoneering at the same time, so it might as well be said that you're training Dungeoneering as a main objective and gaining tokens on the side. I guess I just find it unfair to negate the importance of the DG XP you get in the examples of FKS VS ASS (lol).

 

(Wow lol I started writing this hours ago and just came back to it so yeah...)

 

time opportunity of money

[TheAncient]

I've had my heart set on the CKS for a while now for many reasons that don't really count here because they're more personal (the "fun argument") than anything else...

I would like to ask how one would justify buying Armadyl or Karil's instead of Black Dragonhide for a minimal advantage but completely count-out the CKS's 12-15 point lead in melee Defenses over its closest competitor, the DFS. Also, as per a comment on the other thread, apparently the damage soaking ability "counts" as about 10 more points of melee Defenses, so it's up to a 25 point lead (in each melee stat) over the DFS, which I feel is significant. This is obviousy purely for melee VS melee and melee VS Ranged, which isn't a problem in some particular situations.

My main personal niche reason for buying it is clotting at Castle Wars, if that matters.

 

I'd like to pose:

You can only really train Dungeoneering in one way, so there's not much of a cost VS cost type thing; if you're DG'ing for DG XP, how can you use the cost/hr efficiency argument? You're leveling Dungeoneering at the same time, so it might as well be said that you're training Dungeoneering as a main objective and gaining tokens on the side. I guess I just find it unfair to negate the importance of the DG XP you get in the examples of FKS VS ASS (lol).

 

(Wow lol I started writing this hours ago and just came back to it so yeah...)

 

i mean if the fks is a byproduct of you training dg, then yeah it's "cheaper". but looking at it only from the shield perspective, fks has a higher opportunity cost (if u have bad teams)

[CharlieBrown]

I've had my heart set on the CKS for a while now for many reasons that don't really count here because they're more personal (the "fun argument") than anything else...

I would like to ask how one would justify buying Armadyl or Karil's instead of Black Dragonhide for a minimal advantage but completely count-out the CKS's 12-15 point lead in melee Defenses over its closest competitor, the DFS. Also, as per a comment on the other thread, apparently the damage soaking ability "counts" as about 10 more points of melee Defenses, so it's up to a 25 point lead (in each melee stat) over the DFS, which I feel is significant. This is obviousy purely for melee VS melee and melee VS Ranged, which isn't a problem in some particular situations.

My main personal niche reason for buying it is clotting at Castle Wars, if that matters.

 

I'd like to pose:

You can only really train Dungeoneering in one way, so there's not much of a cost VS cost type thing; if you're DG'ing for DG XP, how can you use the cost/hr efficiency argument? You're leveling Dungeoneering at the same time, so it might as well be said that you're training Dungeoneering as a main objective and gaining tokens on the side. I guess I just find it unfair to negate the importance of the DG XP you get in the examples of FKS VS ASS (lol).

 

(Wow lol I started writing this hours ago and just came back to it so yeah...)

 

i mean if the fks is a byproduct of you training dg, then yeah it's "cheaper". but looking at it only from the shield perspective, fks has a higher opportunity cost (if u have bad teams)

 

If you train dungeoneering and don't enjoy it, you need to gtfo. Dungeoneering should be done for dungeoneering, not the rewards.

If you're in it for the rewards only, you generally suck at the skill and should c1 solo for your tokens, not waste other peoples time :c

;) inb4 haters