Why the Combat Triangle Is More Balanced Than You Think

[TheAncient]

Mage and Range are not strictly "weaker" than melee, at least in a PVP context. PVM is a different story.

 

When people compare the strengths of melee, mage, and range, they mostly consider the max DPS of each style. If pure DPS is really the measurement of combat style strength, then yes, melee is most powerful. Moreover, melee is traditionally the cheapest and most convenient, as melee does not use any kind of ammunition.

 

However, the main drawback of melee is very infrequently mentioned.

 

This weakness is that melee is melee. It requires you to be within one space of your opponent.

 

Spacing and terrain is a huge and often ignored aspect of combat. Other than having good levels, timing, and reactions, a player really only is "good" at combat if he controls spacing and terrain. If harassed properly, a hybrider who relies on melee will lose a significant amount of time and effort trying to keep up with a mage/range heavy hybrider who maneuvers well.

 

What do I mean by controlling spacing and terrain?

 

First, let me elaborate on terrain. If you run in specific directions around certain terrain items (rocks, walls), you can attack a meleer without him attacking you back. Of course, a meleer won't just stand there while you attack him. If he isn't dumb, he'll try to run around the terrain and attack you. In most cases a meleer can do this fast enough to attack you at least once before you reposition. However, in doing so, you effectively slow down his attack speed. If he is using an item which is faster than yours - a rapier, for example - your overall damage per attack is proportionally larger than if you were not to run around. In addition, because you have more time in between attacks, you can use this time strategically by switching prayers or eating. The advantage of additional preparation time applies to your opponent as well, but most meleers are not quick enough to realize that this time can be used effectively.

 

But what if there is no terrain? This is where magic is extremely powerful. Magic has a range of 10 squares, which is higher than even crossbows on longrange (9 LR/7 Rapid). Not only does this give you the ability to farcast, but it also gives you a very significant buffer of preparation time. The time it takes to run to you from 10 squares away is plenty of time for you to tank up, pot, or whatever. If you manage to keep this space difference, you can basically nullify all melee. This is why mage hybrids and tribrids are superior to melee/range hybrids. If there's plenty of terrain for your meleer to get stuck on, a ranger can also have this advantage provided that the combat arena is large and that he has access to a run energy supply.

 

Mage and range may actually have better DPS than melee in safe pvp. Mage is extremely accurate, for whatever reason. A maxed mage attacking someone in full anti-mage gear is much more accurate than a maxed meleer attacking someone in tank gear. With the addition of damage-boosting staves, arcane stream, and magic potions, overall magic DPS may actually be higher than melee against a properly defended opponent, accounting for accuracy. With rigour, deflector-void, and chaotic crossbow, range's accuracy is probably even comparable to the chaotic maul.

 

Don't get me wrong. Melee is still extremely powerful - the chaotic maul is absolutely devastating. But note that its real power lies mostly with KO's, and not necessarily in actual DPS.

[Logdotzip]

Realistically speaking though, most PKers or PvMers typically won't be in Max mage, and when it comes to that, sometimes dhide and a little luck nullifies the distance advantage.

 

But I mostly agree

[jettrider]

Few people are able to use terrain effectively, so melee's sheer KO power is more than enough to make up for not being able to attack the whole time. You are also assuming that meleers go on PK trips to areas with plenty of terrain, which I think isn't very accurate. People in high level wilderness (where there is sufficient terrain to use these tactics) are almost always mage hybrids of some sort. The most important part of your post is how mage has a longer range than any other style. However, meleers these days, when farcasted, will just teleport away or run to a safe zone.

 

Your points are valid - but only for safe PvP in terrained maps or fighting a meleer in a heavily terrained, far from safe zone, out of teleport range place. The latter doesn't happen very often because pure meleers just don't do that.

 

As for everything else in the game - a mage-based boss (like Kreearra for ranged) would do wonders for generating interest for mage combat. Right now, the only monsters people usually mage are Dagannoth Rex and Ice Strykewyrms :rolleyes:

[SirIzenhime]

Honestly, range needs to catch up again, because a max mager dominates a max ranger, which isn't supposed to happen.

[TheAncient]

Honestly, range needs to catch up again, because a max mager dominates a max ranger, which isn't supposed to happen.

 

If the ranger has void+deflector and rigour I have a hard time imagining this.

 

The main weakness of range nowadays is that to be maxed (i.e. rigour), you give up soul split.

[SirIzenhime]

I think the main issue is that magic is too accurate on rangers. Max mages will hit on full armadyl like a rapier hits through a rune chain. Also add in that a mage can actually farcast rangers.

 

All range has going for it is its accuracy, which isn't much better than mages accuracy. It's max hit barely reaches magic's, and that's only with the rare Dragon Fire bolt spec. The hand cannon comes close, but then you loose a shield, which means you loose even more potential magic defense. It also doesn't have a long enough range to hit a farcasting mage.

 

I don't think mages should be able to farcast rangers...because range is supposed to have....well...range.

As for hitting so often...well, i can't say give rangers something that a mage can't hit, because to be balanced, even mages should have some sort of chance against rangers...how ever, currently rangers have barely any chance against mages.

 

The only advantage range has against magic is it's slightly more useful for PvM right now.

Makes pretty good tank gear too...against meleers....

[TheAncient]

I think the main issue is that magic is too accurate on rangers. Max mages will hit on full armadyl like a rapier hits through a rune chain. Also add in that a mage can actually farcast rangers.

 

All range has going for it is its accuracy, which isn't much better than mages accuracy. It's max hit barely reaches magic's, and that's only with the rare Dragon Fire bolt spec. The hand cannon comes close, but then you loose a shield, which means you loose even more potential magic defense. It also doesn't have a long enough range to hit a farcasting mage.

 

I don't think mages should be able to farcast rangers...because range is supposed to have....well...range.

As for hitting so often...well, i can't say give rangers something that a mage can't hit, because to be balanced, even mages should have some sort of chance against rangers...how ever, currently rangers have barely any chance against mages.

 

The only advantage range has against magic is it's slightly more useful for PvM right now.

Makes pretty good tank gear too...against meleers....

 

I don't totally agree with this. My mage bonus is usually around like 120 and I still lose to people in arma.

[totalpwnage]

Honestly, range needs to catch up again, because a max mager dominates a max ranger, which isn't supposed to happen.

No offence, but you DEFINITELY haven't been in PVP much. Max mage gets owned by rag range, lol. Splish splash...

 

But yeah the downside to 10 spaces is that at about 11 or 12 the enemy gets unfrozen. So you have to be super precise.

[TheAncient]

Honestly, range needs to catch up again, because a max mager dominates a max ranger, which isn't supposed to happen.

No offence, but you DEFINITELY haven't been in PVP much. Max mage gets owned by rag range, lol. Splish splash...

 

But yeah the downside to 10 spaces is that at about 11 or 12 the enemy gets unfrozen. So you have to be super precise.

 

It's really kind of in between what you guys are saying, I think. max mage sometimes rips even arma, with luck. mage destroys dhide most of the time.

[MstrMonopoly]

From my PVP experience, mage mostly beats range. Range is sorta crap unless you're willing to risk a LOT.

[TheAncient]

From my PVP experience, mage mostly beats range. Range is sorta crap unless you're willing to risk a LOT.

 

I guess that's why I mostly safe pvp. You need karils+ to win over a mage.

[green9090]

Saying the combat triangle is balanced in PvP (and you seem to specifically be talking about safe PvP) but not PvM just means that it's balanced everywhere it doesn't matter. Safe PvP is the pointless screwing around of RS- if you actually want to accomplish something, you're going to be killing monsters.

 

Not to say safe PvP shouldn't be balanced, but it's really the bottom of the barrel when it comes to relative importance.

[TheAncient]

Saying the combat triangle is balanced in PvP (and you seem to specifically be talking about safe PvP) but not PvM just means that it's balanced everywhere it doesn't matter. Safe PvP is the pointless screwing around of RS- if you actually want to accomplish something, you're going to be killing monsters.

 

Not to say safe PvP shouldn't be balanced, but it's really the bottom of the barrel when it comes to relative importance.

 

monster mechanics are way too simple for range/melee's advantage to show.

 

in dg it's different; magic and range can be used tactically against bosses (bind, safespot, lower def, mage/ranging a first hit and then running in with melee)

 

safe pvp represents the best case scenario for each fighting style. in this sense, balancing it is significant. yes, most people see safe pvp as screwing around - and i think this is sad because it's the only real place where skill-based balanced combat has a chance to flourish.

 

dangerous pvp is shot to hell in my eyes. it's failed beyond repair... 90% of it is luck.

[All_Is_Great]

Saying the combat triangle is balanced in PvP (and you seem to specifically be talking about safe PvP) but not PvM just means that it's balanced everywhere it doesn't matter. Safe PvP is the pointless screwing around of RS- if you actually want to accomplish something, you're going to be killing monsters.

 

Not to say safe PvP shouldn't be balanced, but it's really the bottom of the barrel when it comes to relative importance.

 

And exactly why is that?

[TheAncient]

Saying the combat triangle is balanced in PvP (and you seem to specifically be talking about safe PvP) but not PvM just means that it's balanced everywhere it doesn't matter. Safe PvP is the pointless screwing around of RS- if you actually want to accomplish something, you're going to be killing monsters.

 

Not to say safe PvP shouldn't be balanced, but it's really the bottom of the barrel when it comes to relative importance.

 

And exactly why is that?

 

Can we not bring efficiency into this thread? it's totally unrelated.

[All_Is_Great]

Saying the combat triangle is balanced in PvP (and you seem to specifically be talking about safe PvP) but not PvM just means that it's balanced everywhere it doesn't matter. Safe PvP is the pointless screwing around of RS- if you actually want to accomplish something, you're going to be killing monsters.

 

Not to say safe PvP shouldn't be balanced, but it's really the bottom of the barrel when it comes to relative importance.

 

And exactly why is that?

 

Can we not bring efficiency into this thread? it's totally unrelated.

 

When did i bring up efficiency?

[TheAncient]

When did i bring up efficiency?

 

not efficiency per se, but the whole antagonism against "efficient" people. whatever, you should know what i mean. if you want to flame us, do it in one of the relevant threads, i'll be happy to respond there.

[All_Is_Great]

I'm not flaming you lol. I'm wondering why green has dismissed safe pvp as the least important.

 

I don't agree with him, I think safe Pvp is very important. Minigames like castle wars which basically existed since the beginning of rs2 are constantly played by many people. And other safe pvp minigames were meant as a replacement (of sorts) for the old wilderness. I don't even know how that has to do with efficiency?

 

I'm agreeing with what you say here.

[green9090]

Saying the combat triangle is balanced in PvP (and you seem to specifically be talking about safe PvP) but not PvM just means that it's balanced everywhere it doesn't matter. Safe PvP is the pointless screwing around of RS- if you actually want to accomplish something, you're going to be killing monsters.

 

Not to say safe PvP shouldn't be balanced, but it's really the bottom of the barrel when it comes to relative importance.

 

monster mechanics are way too simple for range/melee's advantage to show.

 

in dg it's different; magic and range can be used tactically against bosses (bind, safespot, lower def, mage/ranging a first hit and then running in with melee)

 

safe pvp represents the best case scenario for each fighting style. in this sense, balancing it is significant. yes, most people see safe pvp as screwing around - and i think this is sad because it's the only real place where skill-based balanced combat has a chance to flourish.

 

dangerous pvp is shot to hell in my eyes. it's failed beyond repair... 90% of it is luck.

Sure, but this doesn't change the fact that no safe PvP is ever significantly helpful. The magic and ranged points in the combat triangle remain dull because melee can go out and make tons of money, maybe with a little ranged hybridding (or not!), and magic is stuck with DK rex and ice strykewyrms.

 

 

Safe PvP is interesting and involves a lot of skill, but has no reward whatsoever for doing very well instead of just okay, so it really doesn't count as balancing in the sense of making every type of combat equally useful.

Saying the combat triangle is balanced in PvP (and you seem to specifically be talking about safe PvP) but not PvM just means that it's balanced everywhere it doesn't matter. Safe PvP is the pointless screwing around of RS- if you actually want to accomplish something, you're going to be killing monsters.

 

Not to say safe PvP shouldn't be balanced, but it's really the bottom of the barrel when it comes to relative importance.

 

And exactly why is that?

Don't troll me, bro. You know exactly why and you're trying to start something by calling me an efficiency troll. If you kill more monsters per hour, you get more money per hour which means more stuff accomplished. If you kill more people in safe PvP you get to feel good about yourself (and you probably SPENT a lot of money to do it). That's a pretty big difference even for people who aren't efficiency-minded.

[All_Is_Great]

^ But whats the point of money if you don't spend it? And isn't spending it on dominating in safe PVP one of the best ways? I'm not trolling you, and I never even mentioned efficiency until you two brought that up.

 

Also, when you kill monsters, and run into a dry streak, you don't feel good about yourself and you get frustrated. At least in safe PVP you feel good, no?

[green9090]

^ But whats the point of money if you don't spend it? And isn't spending it on dominating in safe PVP one of the best ways? I'm not trolling you, and I never even mentioned efficiency until you two brought that up.

 

Also, when you kill monsters, and run into a dry streak, you don't feel good about yourself and you get frustrated. At least in safe PVP you feel good, no?

You're right. Nobody should ever try to improve their characters or do things that benefit them, and safe PvP is OMG SO IMPORTANT.

 

Let's get back on topic.

[All_Is_Great]

^ But whats the point of money if you don't spend it? And isn't spending it on dominating in safe PVP one of the best ways? I'm not trolling you, and I never even mentioned efficiency until you two brought that up.

 

Also, when you kill monsters, and run into a dry streak, you don't feel good about yourself and you get frustrated. At least in safe PVP you feel good, no?

You're right. Nobody should ever try to improve their characters or do things that benefit them, and safe PvP is OMG SO IMPORTANT.

 

Let's get back on topic.

 

Lol? So I can't disagree with you? We are on topic.

[green9090]

^ But whats the point of money if you don't spend it? And isn't spending it on dominating in safe PVP one of the best ways? I'm not trolling you, and I never even mentioned efficiency until you two brought that up.

 

Also, when you kill monsters, and run into a dry streak, you don't feel good about yourself and you get frustrated. At least in safe PVP you feel good, no?

You're right. Nobody should ever try to improve their characters or do things that benefit them, and safe PvP is OMG SO IMPORTANT.

 

Let's get back on topic.

 

Lol? So I can't disagree with you? We are on topic.

Trololol.

 

Stop making everything about disagreeing with efficiency. It's not related to the topic. Go troll the exclusive content thread.

[All_Is_Great]

^ But whats the point of money if you don't spend it? And isn't spending it on dominating in safe PVP one of the best ways? I'm not trolling you, and I never even mentioned efficiency until you two brought that up.

 

Also, when you kill monsters, and run into a dry streak, you don't feel good about yourself and you get frustrated. At least in safe PVP you feel good, no?

You're right. Nobody should ever try to improve their characters or do things that benefit them, and safe PvP is OMG SO IMPORTANT.

 

Let's get back on topic.

 

Lol? So I can't disagree with you? We are on topic.

Trololol.

 

Stop making everything about disagreeing with efficiency. It's not related to the topic. Go troll the exclusive content thread.

 

Lol'd. I never even mentioned efficiency. Read what I type, don't just assume. You can be efficient as you want, I don't even care, I'm just trying to put a little perspective from my view on why safe PVP is not as useless as you think. If that counts as trolling and anti-efficiency, then :lol:

[AndJusticeForOne]

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