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The Bind System


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#41
NukeMarine
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Reading the last bit, got me thinking:

What if we were able to bind a few items (Would very with your DG level. I'm thinking maybe 10 max at 120 dg?) that would go into a bank-sort of interface that can only be accessed at the start of a dungeon, or during the WINterface. And from this interface, you can pick up to (your max bind for your level) items to bring into the next dungeon.

So, while you wouldn't have your 2H, Hexhunter, primal plate, SSH, and blood neck all at the same time making you OP in a dungeon, you can choose what items you want to bring with you into your next dungeon.

I can see how frustrating debating between binds can be. And going level 50 - 100 with only two bind seems... Cruel.

A "DG Bank" you can only access at the very end of each dungeon to switch out bound items? Now that sounds like a winning idea. Let's the teams switch up how they START each dungeon which offers variety and more fun with ZERO unbalancing to the current system.

To those that says a system works fine as is, I'm glad Jagex never takes that mindset. Yeah, they upset the apple cart a lot, but you get an ever evolving game.

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#42
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Oh, i might have missed the quote where jagex said getting 120 will be extremely easy and everyone will be getting it.

In all seriousness, 120 dungeoneering isn't a routine goal. It's not supposed to be easy. Nobody is forcing anyone to get it, furthermore as it doesn't have any clear cut advantages. Dungeoneering is really one of the easiest skills to get 104m(on par with cooking, just look at the hiscores), and the fact that the levels go up to 120 doesn't mean it should be any easier. Sure, it will take more time compared to a normal 99, but again, it's not a road everyone can or should be taking, thus the fact that it takes alot of time(and i'm not sure it takes more than 99 rc would) makes sense- afterall, it's an endgame skill.

Also, i'm one person who you can not give this ''x skill is hard'' ****. I played rsc. 'Nuff said.



I don't give a [cabbage] if you played RSC, that is actually irrelevant. I'm not saying DG is hard, rather it takes a long time, which if you had read my post you would have seen. The point is not to make the skill easier, but to provide a use to other items. I'd give up my primal plate for a few lower items (boots/gloves/neck)

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#43
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I don't give a [cabbage] if you played RSC, that is actually irrelevant. I'm not saying DG is hard, rather it takes a long time, which if you had read my post you would have seen. The point is not to make the skill easier, but to provide a use to other items. I'd give up my primal plate for a few lower items (boots/gloves/neck)

And there is a huge difference between skills being hard and taking a long time? Most people understand those things the same way. In RSC, every 99 took more time than 120 dungeoneering does now, so it really doesn't take that long. And well, i bet you would take 3 items instead of one. Because it would make dungeoneering easier(you'd do it for efficiency sake, not variety sake). There are more useless items in normal runescape, why don't you care about those? Maxing all other skills takes a long time too.

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#44
Kata_Phfract__the_slayer
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a change should be made to ammo binds as to alow you to have more then 125 at certen levels/depending on dungeion sise.

as for "flat out 2 binds" its an efective, although harsh, system.

i feal it should be more like the idea of the "bind bank"

where you can bind a load of items (aprox 3x now)
but you can only take a set amount in (1, 2, 3, 4 just like how it is) alowing people to change class from say melee to mage without stuffing up there binds big time.


however a system of a primeary and secondry binds would also be efective.
prineary being like anything thats a:
weapon
armour (legs, shield, chest, helm)
and maybe other stuff.

secondry:
amulets
lowwer grade armour (boots, gloves)
cape (if any is ever added to dunge)
posible even a potion or pice of food (disposeible stuff liket that if used up carrys on as when binded, unles you sesificly chouse the "destroy" option)
and if jagex like to anoy us, make this also where you put your ammo binds lol

basicly meaning you can bind lesser things like amulets and boots while not restrainng your weapon and armour binds.

edit: random pointless thought, upgrade your bind with ring classes. like a bind class or maybe spending enough tokens in a class type (melee, mage etc) will unlock a class spsific bind.
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#45
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Zamorak, your ideas are all fine and fluffy(and i've heard similar ones for a hundred times) but really, what they all tell me is that dungeoneering should be easier in the sense that you would have more binds to work with. I have yet to hear a realistic idea of how you would add variety to the binding system without making dungeoneering easier(as making it easier shouldn't be your goal anyway). Can anyone do that? Seems like a great system to me.

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#46
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It may go to 120, but you don't need it. You only need enough to get all the chaotics you want/whatever.
O.O

#47
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Zamorak, your ideas are all fine and fluffy(and i've heard similar ones for a hundred times) but really, what they all tell me is that dungeoneering should be easier in the sense that you would have more binds to work with. I have yet to hear a realistic idea of how you would add variety to the binding system without making dungeoneering easier(as making it easier shouldn't be your goal anyway). Can anyone do that? Seems like a great system to me.

The bind system is good, but it removes any reason for level 11 secondary items such as gloves and boots. There was some effort making these items and putting them as boss drops but nobody looks at them past the boss floor. What he's (Zamorak) asking is a balanced manner to introduce these in a way they can be kept. Offering more binds is not the solution. If Jagex raises the binding number, it won't mean people will bind boots as they'll bind another weapon or armor piece. However, if they introduce a "upper item" (weapon, shield, armor, slayer item) and "lower item" bind (glove, boots, and med helm maybe) so that a level 50 can bind 2 upper and 2 lower items then players have a reason to keep boots and gloves. Yes, it's more bound items but it's more of the minor stuff.

Secondly, introduce a "DG Bound Item Box" that can be accessed at the end of a dungeon after a boss. This prevents players from shifting their strengths mid game, yet are not held hostage to one combat type or hybrid. Currently, you can be limited to the team you can participate on. However, at the end of a dungeon during the winter face(say a quicky at level 1) you can shift from Melee to Mage or Range and join another team as another aspect. That's not unbalanced as you're not given more binds to work with in a dungeon, and it's more fun and varied.

So yes, the suggestions make things a little easier (bounded gloves and boots), and offer variety for players going for 120 (changing combat settings). Still, it does nothing more than make Dungeoneering more fun and approachable at very little cost to balance. Kudos to whoever thought of both ideas.

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#48
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Zamorak, your ideas are all fine and fluffy(and i've heard similar ones for a hundred times) but really, what they all tell me is that dungeoneering should be easier in the sense that you would have more binds to work with. I have yet to hear a realistic idea of how you would add variety to the binding system without making dungeoneering easier(as making it easier shouldn't be your goal anyway). Can anyone do that? Seems like a great system to me.

The bind system is good, but it removes any reason for level 11 secondary items such as gloves and boots. There was some effort making these items and putting them as boss drops but nobody looks at them past the boss floor. What he's (Zamorak) asking is a balanced manner to introduce these in a way they can be kept. Offering more binds is not the solution. If Jagex raises the binding number, it won't mean people will bind boots as they'll bind another weapon or armor piece. However, if they introduce a "upper item" (weapon, shield, armor, slayer item) and "lower item" bind (glove, boots, and med helm maybe) so that a level 50 can bind 2 upper and 2 lower items then players have a reason to keep boots and gloves. Yes, it's more bound items but it's more of the minor stuff.

Secondly, introduce a "DG Bound Item Box" that can be accessed at the end of a dungeon after a boss. This prevents players from shifting their strengths mid game, yet are not held hostage to one combat type or hybrid. Currently, you can be limited to the team you can participate on. However, at the end of a dungeon during the winter face(say a quicky at level 1) you can shift from Melee to Mage or Range and join another team as another aspect. That's not unbalanced as you're not given more binds to work with in a dungeon, and it's more fun and varied.

So yes, the suggestions make things a little easier (bounded gloves and boots), and offer variety for players going for 120 (changing combat settings). Still, it does nothing more than make Dungeoneering more fun and approachable at very little cost to balance. Kudos to whoever thought of both ideas.

The problem is, any idea that would make dungeoneering easier wouldn't fit the bill for that this thread is about- giving more variety. Ofcource you'd use gloves when you'd have more binds, but that's the thing- more binds- which makes the skill easier. I would understand something balanced like giving up binds for a gloves/boots bind or something of that kind, but the last thing you want to do is make it any easier. I can think of a hundred ways of how to make dungeoneering more fun, but most of them would mean getting 120 would become a joke, because, face it, the only hard part is that it takes quite a bit of time.

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#49
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Well, I know for a fact Dungeoneering isn't done because, they still haven't concluded the story line, which is supposed to be the final update. I wouldn't see the conclusion being a quest because 120 Dungeoneering shouldn't be a quest requirement.

I think to fix binds, having different load outs at the beginning of each dungeon would be great. Stealing Halo Reach idea. Could have # of load outs follow the bind pattern. Making more of the dungeon items more useful. In reality you would only need 3 loadouts

Keyer/c1- Hood+Primal Baxe + Prim kite or (prim plate + grab antifire at Beginning) + laws
Occult - Hex + saggi top + hood+ saggi p++ arrows (really only 1-2 people need this class)
Melee - hood + prim 2h + prim plate + surgebox/laws/arrows


Mage Pures - hood+celestial top+ doomcore + surgebox


Capes in order: Firemaking - Cooking - Construction - 99 Dungeoneering
- 120 Dungeoneering - Quest - Strength - Prayer - Herblore - Constitution
- Attack - Defence - Ranged - Runecrafting - Magic - Fletching - Mining

- Farming - Smithing - Slayer - Woodcutting - Summoning - Thieving - Hunter

- Fishing - Agility - Crafting - Divination - Max - Completionist

0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0100 0101


#50
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XPX, time=/=difficulty. No skill is "hard" really. There are time consuming skills, buyable skills "semi-afkable skills" etc. DGing is the ONE skill which actually takes some measure of skill. That is why I don't think changing the bind system to provide some lesser used items. Binding primal boots/gaunts temporarily would not only provide some reason to do c6 frozen floors, but also give the boots some use. However, it wouldn't significantly speed things up, or make things "easier" really.

Another idea: I'd give up my primal plate to try out a blood necklace, if I could get primal plate back and swap out BN. That is the whole idea of a "bind bank". I'd use BN on certain floors, plate on others, etc. I could switch between primal baxe/2h/spear in order to try all.

Look at it this way: Most people aren't going to change their current setup to try out a bunch of new things because its not practical. In fact, I'd even be willing to lose my 3rd bind for one floor when switching between items, in order to prevent the "bind bank" from making things too easily.


And Assasin, C Cat staff>doomcore.

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#51
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XPX, time=/=difficulty. No skill is "hard" really. There are time consuming skills, buyable skills "semi-afkable skills" etc. DGing is the ONE skill which actually takes some measure of skill. That is why I don't think changing the bind system to provide some lesser used items. Binding primal boots/gaunts temporarily would not only provide some reason to do c6 frozen floors, but also give the boots some use. However, it wouldn't significantly speed things up, or make things "easier" really.

Another idea: I'd give up my primal plate to try out a blood necklace, if I could get primal plate back and swap out BN. That is the whole idea of a "bind bank". I'd use BN on certain floors, plate on others, etc. I could switch between primal baxe/2h/spear in order to try all.

Look at it this way: Most people aren't going to change their current setup to try out a bunch of new things because its not practical. In fact, I'd even be willing to lose my 3rd bind for one floor when switching between items, in order to prevent the "bind bank" from making things too easily.


And Assasin, C Cat staff>doomcore.

Actually, in runescape, as nothing really takes any skill(relative, may have something to do with boredom/grinding), the hardness of skills is mostly, if not entirely defined by how fast the skills are. Runecrafting, in no way, is a hard to level skill(doesn't take any extraordinary talents), but it is said to be the hardest skill because it takes most time. On the flipside, fletching and cooking are seen as easy skills, just because the xp rate is high. If cooking was 30k xp an hour, it'd be considered hard.

That said, dungeoneering is a skill that does take a bit more 'skill' than the others, but at the same time, it is also more fun. The difficulty in training dungeoneering depends largely on two factors- teammates and binds, and we can't just change the balance. It is next to confirmed ~45 dungeoneering will get another bind, so with 4 binds at level 100 and 5 at 120, i think we are set in the number of items we can possibly allow to bring into dungeons. While some binds will forever be more worthwhile than others(mage gloves/boots, for example), having to make this choice also adds difficulty. I can see how swapping one 'normal' bind for a second 'ammo' bind could work(further in the light of the upcoming new bind slot), and i can see allowing the binding of the same tier of the same combat class gloves/boots in one normal slot, but not introducing new binds for these items.

As for bind bank, it's a good idea, but it'd need good balancing. I can see it working assuming you have 10 normal bank slots and ~3-4 ammo slots and can only access the bank while you reset your prestige to not allow making dungeons much easier(changing weapons for what specific dungeons you are doing). I think this would keep the difficulty intact while allowing you to bind and use items that are not always the best, but add variety.

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#52
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I think the bind bank idea needs to somehow be compiled onto the RSOF in order to possibly get formal recognition by the dev team, as I think it is a worth idea.
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#53
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tbh, i think hotkeys should be implemented into pvm and pvp. I am an avid D2 fan and I couldn't imagine it without binds going through levels. It simply opens up so many more viable doors for training. The only reason I don't mind so much in Rs is because I am used to not using binds.

#54
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tbh, i think hotkeys should be implemented into pvm and pvp. I am an avid D2 fan and I couldn't imagine it without binds going through levels. It simply opens up so many more viable doors for training. The only reason I don't mind so much in Rs is because I am used to not using binds.


get a programmable mouse and set the extra button to the f keys

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#55
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Zamorak, your ideas are all fine and fluffy(and i've heard similar ones for a hundred times) but really, what they all tell me is that dungeoneering should be easier in the sense that you would have more binds to work with. I have yet to hear a realistic idea of how you would add variety to the binding system without making dungeoneering easier(as making it easier shouldn't be your goal anyway). Can anyone do that? Seems like a great system to me.

The bind system is good, but it removes any reason for level 11 secondary items such as gloves and boots. There was some effort making these items and putting them as boss drops but nobody looks at them past the boss floor. What he's (Zamorak) asking is a balanced manner to introduce these in a way they can be kept. Offering more binds is not the solution. If Jagex raises the binding number, it won't mean people will bind boots as they'll bind another weapon or armor piece. However, if they introduce a "upper item" (weapon, shield, armor, slayer item) and "lower item" bind (glove, boots, and med helm maybe) so that a level 50 can bind 2 upper and 2 lower items then players have a reason to keep boots and gloves. Yes, it's more bound items but it's more of the minor stuff.

Secondly, introduce a "DG Bound Item Box" that can be accessed at the end of a dungeon after a boss. This prevents players from shifting their strengths mid game, yet are not held hostage to one combat type or hybrid. Currently, you can be limited to the team you can participate on. However, at the end of a dungeon during the winter face(say a quicky at level 1) you can shift from Melee to Mage or Range and join another team as another aspect. That's not unbalanced as you're not given more binds to work with in a dungeon, and it's more fun and varied.

So yes, the suggestions make things a little easier (bounded gloves and boots), and offer variety for players going for 120 (changing combat settings). Still, it does nothing more than make Dungeoneering more fun and approachable at very little cost to balance. Kudos to whoever thought of both ideas.

The problem is, any idea that would make dungeoneering easier wouldn't fit the bill for that this thread is about- giving more variety. Ofcource you'd use gloves when you'd have more binds, but that's the thing- more binds- which makes the skill easier. I would understand something balanced like giving up binds for a gloves/boots bind or something of that kind, but the last thing you want to do is make it any easier. I can think of a hundred ways of how to make dungeoneering more fun, but most of them would mean getting 120 would become a joke, because, face it, the only hard part is that it takes quite a bit of time.


the thing is, the goal is to make it more fun, but not easier. sometimes its imposible to get one and not the other.
if i had the same amount of binds as now, but i have a bind bank and get to chouse for each dungeion, that would make things more fun but only slightly easier. i want more variety as much as anyone, and its just my opinion that bind banks and grater/lesser binds would achive that. yes, there will be sheep who just use the extra binds for stuff like prom gloves and boots just becouse they have prom plate, legs and 2h. but there also would be people who bind other things, i for one, given a grater/lesser bind system, would bind mage gloves/boots and melee plate/weapon.
but if it must be so, other options can be thought of. a "bind power" could be one...

you have a set bind power, that goes up level with level (so it goes up from dunge level: 1 to 2 to 3... insted of 1 to 50 to 100...)
each item has a set "bind energy" so a t11 plate would be huge and would limit your binding ability. but a set of t7 gloves and boots would take LESS bind space then a t11 plate (unlike now!)
this means you can bind many small items or a few big items, or anything inbetween. besdies, bind power sounds a lot more like dunge to me :P

as you said, its one of many many posible ideas. im not saying its a good one, but it could be.
it is simply my vew that stuff like that would be best, other options are posible. such as forceing veriaty upon people or simple makeing it more advantageous but stuff like that is what rants are made of.
just remember, our vews may differ, but we are after the same goal.
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#56
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I don't think for a moment it's hard to achieve both keeping the skills difficulty and adding variety, but the problem lies in the nature of the ideas that are proposed- most people are not after fun, they are after making dungeoneering easier(and thus propose whole new bind slots and what not).

The bind bank idea would work assuming you'd be able to access the bank very rarely, like, for instance, every reset, which would keep the difficulty intact and also enable you to switch difficult binds more easily.

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#57
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I don't think for a moment it's hard to achieve both keeping the skills difficulty and adding variety, but the problem lies in the nature of the ideas that are proposed- most people are not after fun, they are after making dungeoneering easier(and thus propose whole new bind slots and what not).

The bind bank idea would work assuming you'd be able to access the bank very rarely, like, for instance, every reset, which would keep the difficulty intact and also enable you to switch difficult binds more easily.

I still think every floor is ideal. Because that actually lets you coordinate with random teams (which is the majority of dungeoneering)
whereas gear swaps per reset only really benefits perm teams.

Take Alien Swarm by valve for example.
Completely team based combat.
You swap out your gear at the start of every level.

In that game, there's a ~1 min waiting period before the game starts, or until everybody clicks ready.
And you see what everybody else on your team is equipped with.
That way you can make sure no one class is overcompensated for.

something like that would be good. I think a major goal of Jagex with dungeoneering was to promote teamwork afterall.
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#58
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I agree with Grimy -- it wouldn't make dungeoneering easier per se, but it would allow for more variety and strategy, especially when using randoms (talking about a bind bank that can be accessed every floor). Grimy's idea for changing the bind system is my favorite thus far. It requires the least amount of balancing, too, which is very good for us (we do play Jagex' game after all).

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#59
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I still think every floor is ideal. Because that actually lets you coordinate with random teams (which is the majority of dungeoneering)
whereas gear swaps per reset only really benefits perm teams.

I still think most of you don't get where i'm coming from. The WHOLE point of the idea is not to benefit ANYONE, but only add variety. This is the most important aspect of any changes that may come to the bind system. If people want more variety, sure, have some, but if the need for variety is actually masking the need for easier dungeoneering, then no thanks. Per reset would keep the difficulty intact as much as possible while allowing you to use and swap rare binds without the fear of losing them. Variety.

Also, Obtaurian, which grimys idea do you particularly like that much?

Also, another twist to the bind bank would be for it to coexist with your normal bank in the way that the items in your bind bank count toward your bank space- thus you could bank bind alot of items, but it'd also limit your normal bank items, and jagex wouldn't have to worry about this system needing more memory space.

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#60
Grimy_Bunyip
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Grimy_Bunyip

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I still think every floor is ideal. Because that actually lets you coordinate with random teams (which is the majority of dungeoneering)
whereas gear swaps per reset only really benefits perm teams.

I still think most of you don't get where i'm coming from. The WHOLE point of the idea is not to benefit ANYONE, but only add variety. This is the most important aspect of any changes that may come to the bind system. If people want more variety, sure, have some, but if the need for variety is actually masking the need for easier dungeoneering, then no thanks. Per reset would keep the difficulty intact as much as possible while allowing you to use and swap rare binds without the fear of losing them. Variety.

Also, Obtaurian, which grimys idea do you particularly like that much?

Also, another twist to the bind bank would be for it to coexist with your normal bank in the way that the items in your bind bank count toward your bank space- thus you could bank bind alot of items, but it'd also limit your normal bank items, and jagex wouldn't have to worry about this system needing more memory space.

I don't see why you think a gear swap at the start of each floor is that game breaking.
You're still restricted to the same # of binds.
You can't switch out your gear once the floor starts.
I simply don't see why you think it actually makes it that much easier.

So when i meant benefit, I meant benefit teamwork wise.
1 swap per reset almost completely defeats the purpose of the bind bank promoting team work.
It would only promote teamwork amongst perm teams, which are not a majority.
1 swap at the start of each floor promotes teamwork amongst anybody.
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