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Preliminary Analysis of Damage Soak And DDefender (Safe PvP)


TheAncient

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Since you're original post was really long, and lots of graphs, etc. I didn't quite get it.

 

What I'm interested in is that this means for dangerous Pvp, especially rune fights in edge. I currently use a maul, and when I don't get veng combo'd I do very well. So after this update what will happen?

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Since you're original post was really long, and lots of graphs, etc. I didn't quite get it.

 

What I'm interested in is that this means for dangerous Pvp, especially rune fights in edge. I currently use a maul, and when I don't get veng combo'd I do very well. So after this update what will happen?

 

The original post's length is why I posted a TL;DR conclusion, so if you want to get the main points from the post I suggest you look there

 

Maul will be worse off than rapier and cls after this update. It's good for KO's but just about that... further, if your opponent has ~20% soak on melee it is actually worse in overall damage than rapier and cls.

 

However, it is still good as a KO weapon because of its high accuracy and variance. I would still suggest using it, but mainly if you hybrid. veng kickback is a huge deal on it I think, so you need some way of getting rid of veng (i.e. other weaker and less accurate attacks).

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So if the guy in rune has +200 crush defence, he gets 200/4.5, so 18% damage soak? That seems awfully overpowered.

 

No, I think you might've misunderstood the expression. we don't know what percent soak he'll have based on his crush defense

 

what I meant is that 4.5 defense points has approximately the same effect as 1% overall damage reduction, or a 3% soak value.

 

we don't know what soak values rune will have yet.

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Well... at least you got the shape of the curve right.

But, my farseer kite will soak 49 when I am hit with an ags special for 550 (8.91%) not 20 (3.7%).

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I haven't delved very deep into how to calculate the reduction of overall damage right(and i'm not going to make a complete fool of myself, either, like, for instance, Golvellius) but, any reasoning on why the graph is not linear? By logic, if your max hit was infinite, overall soak -> equipment soak, and the higher your max hit, the higher overall soak will be, but i'm not completely sure why the graph would have a maximum in the x=y scale.

 

Other than that, it's a nice analysis and somewhat shows what i've already posted, the soaking ability will not be in any way game-changing, it will just mimic the pking we had some years/moths ago without chaotics etc.

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I've had to remove a few posts. If you don't want to discuss the topic at hand which is the analysis of these updates, you don't have to post.

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I haven't delved very deep into how to calculate the reduction of overall damage right(and i'm not going to make a complete fool of myself, either, like, for instance, Golvellius) but, any reasoning on why the graph is not linear? By logic, if your max hit was infinite, overall soak -> equipment soak, and the higher your max hit, the higher overall soak will be, but i'm not completely sure why the graph would have a maximum in the x=y scale.

 

Other than that, it's a nice analysis and somewhat shows what i've already posted, the soaking ability will not be in any way game-changing, it will just mimic the pking we had some years/moths ago without chaotics etc.

 

Taking the limit as max hit approaches infinity of the c' expression shows exactly what you said, it's just that we don't see this saturating behavior for our range of max hits.

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If you hit a 400-200-100-100, only the 400 will so damage soak will be halved for dragon claws in contrast to other weapons.

 

We will have to wait and see where exactly the soak value is applied to see if dragon claws will take a big hit.

 

If the soaking is applies only to hits over 200 and acts as your 1st hit is still the normal damage, and you hit 400-200-100-100, only the 400 and 200 hit would be soaked while the remaining two hits would not be. This would put the DPS higher than an AGS could achieve with the same soaking.

 

AGS = 800 * (20% soak) = 640 TOTAL

CLAWS = 400-200-100-100 * (20% soak) = 320-160-100-100 = 680 TOTAL

 

OR it could be

 

AGS = 800 * (20% soak) = 640 TOTAL

CLAWS = 400-200-100-100 * (20% soak) = 320-160-80-80 = 640 TOTAL

 

Really depending on how the soak is applied to claws means you might or might not deal more damage on your last two hits, making AGS gravely inferior as a special weapon. Assuming the claws keeps on the 1st example, hitting hits like this:

 

Claws 380-190-95-95 * (20% Soak) = 304-190-95-95

AGS 760 * (20% soak) = 608

 

Claws = 684

AGS = 608

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if the soak is applied in the same manner as dg shields, then those calculations are incorrectbecause it is 20% of hit-200 that is soaked and not 20% of your hit. otherwise a hit that rolled as 199 would do more damage than a hit that rolled as 201

 

either way you and grimy are right in saying that claws will be even better than ags

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If you hit a 400-200-100-100, only the 400 will so damage soak will be halved for dragon claws in contrast to other weapons.

 

We will have to wait and see where exactly the soak value is applied to see if dragon claws will take a big hit.

 

If the soaking is applies only to hits over 200 and acts as your 1st hit is still the normal damage, and you hit 400-200-100-100, only the 400 and 200 hit would be soaked while the remaining two hits would not be. This would put the DPS higher than an AGS could achieve with the same soaking.

 

AGS = 800 * (20% soak) = 640 TOTAL

CLAWS = 400-200-100-100 * (20% soak) = 320-160-100-100 = 680 TOTAL

 

OR it could be

 

AGS = 800 * (20% soak) = 640 TOTAL

CLAWS = 400-200-100-100 * (20% soak) = 320-160-80-80 = 640 TOTAL

 

Really depending on how the soak is applied to claws means you might or might not deal more damage on your last two hits, making AGS gravely inferior as a special weapon. Assuming the claws keeps on the 1st example, hitting hits like this:

 

Claws 380-190-95-95 * (20% Soak) = 304-190-95-95

AGS 760 * (20% soak) = 608

 

Claws = 684

AGS = 608

First one. I was wondering about the exact same thing yesterday so I tested it out. Claws > AGS by a long shot.

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Well... at least you got the shape of the curve right.

But, my farseer kite will soak 49 when I am hit with an ags special for 550 (8.91%) not 20 (3.7%).

 

not sure if t or just very s

 

there is difference between overall reduction and reduction only on one hit. I suggest you look at the analysis again

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If they're visible bonuses, they add. However, I don't get how your multiplication idea works; generally, you get HIGHER numbers when they're compounded vs just added. E.G. 1.1 * 1.1 = 1.21.

 

To above poster: the dragon defender is only useful if you have super antifires, so you can use a 1h stabbing weapon with a ddefender. These 1h stabbing items include Koraskis sword and the chaotic rapier/longsword...

think a little harder Squab.

How exactly did you get the number 1.1 from 10% damage soak, and does that really make sense.

 

*blinks* no, it doesn't. Right, we aren't increasing by 10% >.<

 

*looks at your math again* righto. Er, still don't think it'd be multiplicatively added. Visible boosts aren't.

 

if the soak is applied in the same manner as dg shields, then those calculations are incorrectbecause it is 20% of hit-200 that is soaked and not 20% of your hit. otherwise a hit that rolled as 199 would do more damage than a hit that rolled as 201

 

either way you and grimy are right in saying that claws will be even better than ags

 

Yay. Please rise claws.

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*blinks* no, it doesn't. Right, we aren't increasing by 10% >.<

 

*looks at your math again* righto. Er, still don't think it'd be multiplicatively added. Visible boosts aren't.

 

so 10% damage soak means you're taking 90% damage right? when it soaks.

2x 10% damage soak, if done multiplicatively, means you take 90% of 90%.

 

or 90% * 90% = 0.81% -> 19% damage soak.

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Some math

Let c = soak coefficient (e.g. 0.14 for dungeoneering shields)

Let c' = overall damage soaked (e.g. ~3.7% for dungeoneering shields against a weapon with a max of 550)

Let m = max hit

Let h = value of any particular hit

 

The expression for the percent damage reduction is then

c' = (c/m) sum((h-200)/h),h,200,m).

 

This sum can be approximated as an integral as follows:

c' ~ (c/m) integral((h-200)/h,h,200,m)

which should evaluate to

c' ~ c[1-(200/m)*ln(m)+859.66/m].

Using this expression one can evaluate the overall damage reduction c' given your soak coefficient c and the max hit of the weapon you are defending from, m.

 

Plotting this for various c:

Note that "overall damage reduction" means the damage reduction averaged over all hits, not the reduction on the max hit only.

c0p10copy.png

c0p15copy.png

c0p20copy.png

c0p25copy.png

c0p30copy.png

c0p40copy.png

c0p50copy.png

 

What does this mean for Elysian and Divine Spirit Shields?

Against a max hit of 600, a 50% soak rating reduces overall damage by approximately 15%.

Thus, a 50% soak rating is comparable to an Ely (17.5% overall damage reduction).

Divine's 30% Damage reduction is still much more potent than even a soak rating of 50%.

For damage soak to be better than divine, it would have to be extremely high (50%+).

 

What does this mean for Overall Damage and Chaotic Weaponry?

[hide=Assumptions]

Assuming you have 99 Strength, Extreme Strength Potion, Turmoil

Assuming you are wearing Full Barrows*, Onyx i, Fire Cape, Dragon Boots, Dragon Defender+, Rapier = 150 Attack, 136 Strength

Assuming you are wearing Full Barrows*, Onyx i, Fire Cape, Dragon Boots, Dragon Defender+, Longsword = 180 Attack, 155 Strength

Assuming you are wearing Full Barrows*, Onyx i, Fire Cape, Dragon Boots, Maul = 150 Attack, 136 Strength = 196 Attack, 183 Strength

*Barrows has been proven to be better than Bandos in standard Safe PvP in a previous post of mine.

+Dragon Defender stats are assumed to be ~27 Attack bonus, 7 Strength bonus

[/hide]

 

[hide=DPS Without Soak]

Assuming opponent has 99 Defense, Extreme Defense Potion, Turmoil, 300 Defense Points, here are the respective DPS, Acc and max hits:

Rapier

-- Max: 532

-- Acc: 28.99%

-- DPS: 32.12

Longsword

-- Max: 585

-- Acc: 33.23%

-- DPS: 32.40

Maul

-- Max: 662

-- Acc: 35.45%

-- DPS: 32.60

 

Assuming opponent has 99 Defense, Extreme Defense Potion, Turmoil, 350 Defense Points, here are the respective DPS, Acc and max hits:

Rapier

-- Max: 532

-- Acc: 25.41%

-- DPS: 28.16

Longsword

-- Max: 585

-- Acc: 29.13%

-- DPS: 28.4

Maul

-- Max: 662

-- Acc: 31.08%

-- DPS: 28.58

 

Assuming opponent has 99 Defense, Extreme Defense Potion, Turmoil, 400 Defense Points, here are the respective DPS, Acc and max hits:

Rapier

-- Max: 532

-- Acc: 22.64%

-- DPS: 25.09

Longsword

-- Max: 585

-- Acc: 25.95%

-- DPS: 25.30

Maul

-- Max: 662

-- Acc: 31.08%

-- DPS: 25.46

[/hide]

For overall DPS, Maul>LS>rapier but they are all approximately the same. Maul benefits from having high variance on its attacks and high accuracy, making it a good KO weapon; however, vengeance recoil is a significant drawback. Rapier is more reliable but has slighly lower DPS. Longsword is the intermediate between the two.

 

[hide=DPS With Soak]

Assuming opponent has 99 Defense, Extreme Defense Potion, Turmoil, 350 Defense Points,10% Soak, here are the respective DPS, Acc and max hits:

Rapier

-- Max: 498.8

-- Acc: 25.41%

-- DPS: 27.44

Longsword

-- Max: 546.5

-- Acc: 29.13%

-- DPS: 27.57

Maul

-- Max: 615.8

-- Acc: 31.08%

-- DPS: 27.62

 

Assuming opponent has 99 Defense, Extreme Defense Potion, Turmoil, 350 Defense Points, 20% Soak, here are the respective DPS, Acc and max hits:

Rapier

-- Max: 465.6

-- Acc: 25.41%

-- DPS: 26.72

Longsword

-- Max: 508

-- Acc: 29.13%

-- DPS: 26.75

Maul

-- Max: 569.6

-- Acc: 31.08%

-- DPS: 26.65

 

Assuming opponent has 99 Defense, Extreme Defense Potion, Turmoil, 350 Defense Points, 30% Soak, here are the respective DPS, Acc and max hits:

Rapier

-- Max: 432.4

-- Acc: 25.41%

-- DPS: 25.99

Longsword

-- Max: 469.5

-- Acc: 29.13%

-- DPS: 25.92

Maul

-- Max: 523.4

-- Acc: 31.08%

-- DPS: 25.69

[/hide]

Interesting thing to note: Rapier>Longsword>Maul once soak goes above ~20% and 350 defense. Below ~20%, Maul>Longsword>Rapier.

Also, soak does make a significant impact on max hit.

 

[hide=Defense Points Versus Soak]

Calculations based on the values taken above.

On a very rough approximation,

300->350 Defense points gives approximately 12% Overall damage reduction

350->400 Defense points gives approximately 11% Overall damage reduction

10%->20% Soak rating gives approximately 3.3% Overall damage reduction

20%->30% Soak rating gives approximately 3.2% Overall damage reduction

[/hide]

50 Defense points is worth roughly 11% Overall damage reduction.

10% Soak rating is worth roughly 3.2% Overall damage reduction.

So to reduce overall damage by 1%:

-- Increase defense points by 4.55, OR

-- Increase soak rating by 3%.

On a VERY rough approximation, 1% Soak rating is worth 1.5 Defense Points.

 

 

Limitations to this Analysis

-- Applies mainly when the assumptions hold true. Actual values may vary depending on the situation.

-- Applies mainly in a Safe PvP setting

 

------------------------------

 

Conclusions

-- Dragon defender improves rapier relative to CLS and CLS relative to maul, but does not change the original rank order (Maul > CLS > Rapier)

-- On a VERY rough approximation, 1% Soak rating is worth 1.5 Defense Points.

-- 1% Overall Damage Reduction : 4.5 Defense Points : 3% Soak rating

-- Soak rating makes a significant impact on max hit.

-- Above ~20% Soak rating, Rapier > CLS > Maul

-- Below ~20% Soak rating, Maul > CLS > Rapier

-- An elysian SS's soak is worth approximately 50% soak rating.

 

Long story short -- is your prediction, therefore, that when Jagex brings in this update, will they be rioting in Fally within 20 minutes, or less?

 

:lol:

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Long story short -- is your prediction, therefore, that when Jagex brings in this update, will they be rioting in Fally within 20 minutes, or less?

 

:lol:

 

I don't expect people to not like this update... it seems very fairly balanced mathematically

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Long story short -- is your prediction, therefore, that when Jagex brings in this update, will they be rioting in Fally within 20 minutes, or less?

 

:lol:

 

I don't expect people to not like this update... it seems very fairly balanced mathematically

 

I agree with you entirely -- but you gotta know that the minute Fred fails on his DDS special in PvP, he's gonna scream about it like a stuck pig ...

 

It's inevitable.

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  • 2 weeks later...

bumped this thread in light of the new update.

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hardly, this update has actually made claws more dangerous comparatively.

fixed.

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hardly, this update has actually made claws more dangerous comparatively.

fixed.

 

Actually no, they're better then they were before the update, for this reason

newclawspec.png

 

Notice how I'm only at the beginning of my Claw spec animation? All 4 hits land at the very start, at the exact same time. You can no longer eat between the first two hits and the last two hits. You have one rocktail to survive a claw rusher now, no more.

 

This is all assuming the hitsplats hit at the same time as when fighting monsters.

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hardly, this update has actually made claws more dangerous comparatively.

fixed.

 

Actually no, they're better then they were before the update, for this reason

newclawspec.png

 

Notice how I'm only at the beginning of my Claw spec animation? All 4 hits land at the very start, at the exact same time. You can no longer eat between the first two hits and the last two hits. You have one rocktail to survive a claw rusher now, no more.

 

This is all assuming the hitsplats hit at the same time as when fighting monsters.

Oh; I didn't know that. That changes things...

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