The Return of Ess Runners?

[Nifflin]

I'm so glad I never wasted time leveling runecrafting, currently it's my lowest level and I'll pay through the nose to level it without running laps. It's almost as bad as agility.

[Laura]

I doubt ZMI running would be worth it. Normal ZMI trips (60 seconds) craft about 50-53 essence per trip. Even if you gave them all the runes you crafted + noted pure essence + cash, you would only be crafting 25 pure essence a runner and would require someone every 25-30 seconds to make the experience break even. Then you have to factor in competition from higher levels, etc.

[Alistair]

In those 30 seconds of trades, you have to constantly drop a shedload of runes you don't want for ZMI or trade them. It's been said that you could drop it or trade it, both slow down the process to make the speed gain painfully marginal. You have to pay for banking at ZMI, though that's of little importance. The path may be dangerous for most runners - there's the long path but that's slow. You would need maybe four runners to every crafter to make it viable?

 

Law running, nature running and air running in the past may have been worth it because it would not take significantly longer for a low level to do the run than for a high level to do the run.

[Blyaunte]

I doubt ZMI running would be worth it. Normal ZMI trips (60 seconds) craft about 50-53 essence per trip. Even if you gave them all the runes you crafted + noted pure essence + cash, you would only be crafting 25 pure essence a runner and would require someone every 25-30 seconds to make the experience break even. Then you have to factor in competition from higher levels, etc.

The problem I foresee with running and the ZMI altar is that the actual "trading" between parties will take "too long".

 

Bear with me on this and I will explain:

 

When running Laws, as I recall, the exchange was simply the runner offered the crafter "x" un-noted ess, in exchange for an equal number of laws + "x" noted ess.

 

The same thing would happen, more or less, when running Nats.

 

The problem with the ZMI is that you get a variety of runes with each "crafting" so when the runner would bring you 27 un-noted ess, the crafter would have to offer "x" airs + "y" nats + "z" laws + "q" waters + "r" minds + "m" cosmics + ...

 

There's not too many runners who would sit idle and wait for the crafter to sort out all that junk.

 

Just sayin' ...

[Laura]

It doesn't really matter, as you could just trade them the runes you crafted + cash. Then it just becomes a cash war between crafters.

[TheAncient]

It doesn't really matter, as you could just trade them the runes you crafted + cash. Then it just becomes a cash war between crafters.

 

true, but it would still take a while to put up all of those runes. probably around like 20 clicks.

[sees_all1]

He's a question - how will this affect the price of water tallies or (pure) essence?

 

Someone at the RC guild can cash out their GOP tokens - 50 for a water tally, or 30-40 for an altar teleport. If people are paying 10k plus noted per load, water tallies should rise to at least that much (still a bit of time involved on the guilder's part which would drop the value a bit).

I'd think it'd be the same with essence.

[Laura]

It doesn't really matter, as you could just trade them the runes you crafted + cash. Then it just becomes a cash war between crafters.

 

true, but it would still take a while to put up all of those runes. probably around like 20 clicks.

 

Exactly, which is why ZMI running probably won't become popular.

[TheAncient]

i wonder by how much combination runecrafting or simply law/death/etc. running would be faster than zmi.

[Blyaunte]

It doesn't really matter, as you could just trade them the runes you crafted + cash. Then it just becomes a cash war between crafters.

 

true, but it would still take a while to put up all of those runes. probably around like 20 clicks.

 

Exactly, which is why ZMI running probably won't become popular.

 

Which is precisely my point. There are precious few "runners" out there who are going to show the patience to just sit idle waiting for a crafter to cycle through some 20 clicks.

 

It'd be convenient for the crafter, perhaps, but not for the runner.

 

Hell -- it'd prolly not even be convenient for the crafter either ... :unsure:

[TheAncient]

It doesn't really matter, as you could just trade them the runes you crafted + cash. Then it just becomes a cash war between crafters.

 

true, but it would still take a while to put up all of those runes. probably around like 20 clicks.

 

Exactly, which is why ZMI running probably won't become popular.

 

Which is precisely my point. There are precious few "runners" out there who are going to show the patience to just sit idle waiting for a crafter to cycle through some 20 clicks.

 

It'd be convenient for the crafter, perhaps, but not for the runner.

 

Hell -- it'd prolly not even be convenient for the crafter either ... :unsure:

 

lol then all of us are in agreement :smile:

[Unknown_Warrior]

I can't see this being feasible (for P2P). Reasons being:

 

1) Prices have changed. Laws and natures aren't worth what they were back in 2007.

2) The number of Runecrafters has exponentially increased.

3) ZMI, due to its very nature, doesn't respond well to the idea of running. As I recall, people didn't run essence back when there was free trade, why would they now?

4) The only 2 runes that respond well to the idea of running aren't realistic. We have Death runes, requiring the MEP2 quest, and Bloods, requiring the Vampyre3 quest. Running, which is mostly done by newbies, isn't very realistic when it requires 2 quests with (relatively) high requirements of Agility to reach.

 

Also guys, there's a good chance we'll see a huge deflation with free trade. After all, with it comes the removal of one of the biggest source of gold entering the game (PvP Statuettes).

[Blyaunte]

It doesn't really matter, as you could just trade them the runes you crafted + cash. Then it just becomes a cash war between crafters.

 

true, but it would still take a while to put up all of those runes. probably around like 20 clicks.

 

Exactly, which is why ZMI running probably won't become popular.

 

Which is precisely my point. There are precious few "runners" out there who are going to show the patience to just sit idle waiting for a crafter to cycle through some 20 clicks.

 

It'd be convenient for the crafter, perhaps, but not for the runner.

 

Hell -- it'd prolly not even be convenient for the crafter either ... :unsure:

 

lol then all of us are in agreement :smile:

 

Holy cats! We all agree on something?!?!

:blink:

[Kalafai]

I'd certainly love to offer free laws.

 

I tried a few times, but never got enough runners together to do it via assist.

That, and could probably get a steady stream of laws out with this maxxed trade allowance... most runners couldn't, but they'd get their laws for needed weekly teleports even if not enough for training.

[Sir_Squab]

I see no reason why ZMI runners WOULDN'T happen tbh. You trade all your runes, noted ess, some cash to the runner, he gives you....26 ess, since you need one spot for cash and one spot for noted ess. For example, if I got someone level 40 to do this for me, he would get the runes that level 80 RC makes instead of 40, he doesn't pay for ess, AND he gets cash. That sounds incredibly lucrative tbh. The only real question imo is the exact payrates. All we need is a few rich people to hire some newbs to start this.

[pulli23]

I see no reason why ZMI runners WOULDN'T happen tbh. You trade all your runes, noted ess, some cash to the runner, he gives you....26 ess, since you need one spot for cash and one spot for noted ess. For example, if I got someone level 40 to do this for me, he would get the runes that level 80 RC makes instead of 40, he doesn't pay for ess, AND he gets cash. That sounds incredibly lucrative tbh. The only real question imo is the exact payrates. All we need is a few rich people to hire some newbs to start this.

Uhm the clicking requires pretty much efford. (and patience).

It isn't entirelly safe (so you'll need a mass of people already before running becomes safe)

[green9090]

This argument is why I said in the post you'd just leave the runes in your inventory. Then you could trade a runner a few times for 13 ess each trade. More trades, sure, but they'd be done extremely quickly. Runner puts up ess, you put up cash, craft, repeat.

[AlexRose]

This argument is why I said in the post you'd just leave the runes in your inventory. Then you could trade a runner a few times for 13 ess each trade. More trades, sure, but they'd be done extremely quickly. Runner puts up ess, you put up cash, craft, repeat.

 

Ahh, alright, that might make the whole thing more feasible. That also removes the variability of the runes crafted (which I was just about to bring up), and allows for lower level crafters a chance to compete with higher leveled ones.

 

Now, what would the rates have to be to appeal to prospective runners?

 

EDIT: Actually, you could use a regular BoB to hold your crafted runes between each trade and exchange 26 essence with each trade. Huh, I'm beginning to like this idea more and more.

[green9090]

This argument is why I said in the post you'd just leave the runes in your inventory. Then you could trade a runner a few times for 13 ess each trade. More trades, sure, but they'd be done extremely quickly. Runner puts up ess, you put up cash, craft, repeat.

 

Ahh, alright, that might make the whole thing more feasible. That also removes the variability of the runes crafted (which I was just about to bring up), and allows for lower level crafters a chance to compete with higher leveled ones.

 

Now, what would the rates have to be to appeal to prospective runners?

 

EDIT: Actually, you could use a regular BoB to hold your crafted runes between each trade and exchange 26 essence each time.

But then you'd have to trade to your BoB AND a runner every time, which wastes even MORE time. The point here is speed. A big loss of speed in ZMI crafting is dealing with all those extra runes you make- we're eliminating that here by simply leaving them in the crafter's inventory. That way people can just keep on constantly trading and nobody has to deal with banking runes.

 

Another advantage to the 13 ess thing is that runners with access to an abyssal familiar and/or a few pouches can easily do a few trades a run without payment becoming more complicated.

[AlexRose]

 

Another advantage to the 13 ess thing is that runners with access to an abyssal familiar and/or a few pouches can easily do a few trades a run without payment becoming more complicated.

 

That's a great point, but the players with access to Abyssal familiars, which require a relatively high summoning level for a poorer player, and pouches, which require a medium-highish runecraftng level, would be the least enticed to be a runner (unless people offered huge amounts of cash per run).

 

Yes, trading twice with a runner is faster for the crafter, but it's also less convienent for the runner. This is especially true in full capacity situations where a crafter is surronded and flooded with trades, and may not be able to efficently pick out who he just traded. Not really a problem for the crafter, but an annoyance to a runner.

 

EDIT: I was going to pull some numbers from Zarfot's Runecrafting guide, to see how many runs a runner could make an hour and find some attractive rates, but he took that down. <_< Anyone have rough, approximate ZMI times they could share?

[Kalafai]

I see no reason why ZMI runners WOULDN'T happen tbh. You trade all your runes, noted ess, some cash to the runner, he gives you....26 ess, since you need one spot for cash and one spot for noted ess. For example, if I got someone level 40 to do this for me, he would get the runes that level 80 RC makes instead of 40, he doesn't pay for ess, AND he gets cash. That sounds incredibly lucrative tbh. The only real question imo is the exact payrates. All we need is a few rich people to hire some newbs to start this.

Uhm the clicking requires pretty much efford. (and patience).

It isn't entirelly safe (so you'll need a mass of people already before running becomes safe)

There is a "safe" rout you can take, it winds and is twice the distance.

[AlexRose]

Alright, I decided to crunch a few numbers (courtesy of RuneWiki's ZMI page). Note that the numbers are very rough estimates, and are used exclusively to gauge the approximate feasibility of an essence running service at the ZMI.

 

 

 

Crafters

 

For Crafters, I am assuming that a prospective crafter is:

 

• 
   
  
• 80 RC
   
  
• can craft at the ZMI altar at a "normal" rate; ~40 runs an hour, with 42 essence a run.
   
  
• Makes a full "craft cycle" on an average of 20 seconds (either trading once for 26 essence and banking runes into a BoB, or trading twice for 13 essence each).
   
  
• Pure Essence is 170 each.
  

 

With a craft cycle of 26 essence crafted per 20 seconds, which is 180 runs of 26 essence, that is approximately 4.7k essence crafted in an hour. A normal ZMIer crafts 42 essence a run, 40 runs an hour, which is about 1.7k essences crafted in an hour. Hence, a crafter using this service gains 2.75x more experience using this service than a standard ZMIer, or 1.75 more experience additively (subtracting the "1" a crafter would normally receive).

 

Now, according to a RuneWiki test, a level 80 crafter receives on average 7.8k worth of runes per 42 runes, which is 185 gp worth of runes per essence. 26 crafted runes would proportionally be worth 4.8k. With 180 crafting cycles an hour, a crafter would receive 865k worth of runes an hour.

 

The total cost of the crafter's operation is dependent, of course, on his offers to runners. 12k (per 26 essence) pays for the runner's essence and gives approximately the crafted rune's worth, so I will use this value as a baseline. At 180 cycles an hour, 12k costs a crafter 2.15 Million. Factoring in the money gained from the runes produced, and the profit lost from selling the runes crafted the normal way (about 50k), a crafter would pay a whooping 1.29 million an hour using this service.

 

By using the service, a crafter gains an additional 1.75 more experience by paying 1.29 million. In other words, a crafter saves 1.75 hours of runecrafting at the ZMI by paying 1.29 million. For the service to be worth it, a crafter would have to be able to make more than 1.29 million in 1.75 hours, which is a rate of approximately 737k an hour. Hence, a crafter would benefit from using this service, paying 12k every 26 essence, if they made more than 737k an hour.

 

Now, what if runners would be enticed by larger amounts of cash? After all, many higher leveled players make far more than 750k an hour with boss hunting, merchanting, Frost Dragons, etc. What if crafters offered 15k, 20k, or 25k a run?

 

 

Offering 15k a cycle, a crafter would pay 2.8 million an hour using this service, or 1.83 million when runes are sold. For the service to be worth it at 15k a cycle, a crafter would need to make over a million GP an hour.

 

Offering 20k a cycle, a crafter would pay 3.6 million an hour using this service, or 2.73 million when runes are sold. For the service to be worth it at 20k a cycle a crafter would need to make over 1.6 million GP an hour.

 

Offering 25k a cycle, a crafter would pay 4.5 million an hour using this service, or 3.63 million when runes are sold. For the service to be worth it at 25k a cycle, a crafter would need to make over 2 million GP an hour.

[pulli23]

Alright, I decided to crunch a few numbers (courtesy of RuneWiki's ZMI page). Note that the numbers are very rough estimates, and are used exclusively to gauge the approximate feasibility of an essence running service at the ZMI.

 

 

 

Crafters

 

For Crafters, I am assuming that a prospective crafter is:

 

• 
   
  
• 80 RC
   
  
• can craft at the ZMI altar at a "normal" rate; ~40 runs an hour, with 42 essence a run.
   
  
• Makes a full "craft cycle" on an average of 20 seconds (either trading once for 26 essence and banking runes into a BoB, or trading twice for 13 essence each).
   
  
• Pure Essence is 170 each.
  

 

With a craft cycle of 26 essence crafted per 20 seconds, which is 180 runs of 26 essence, that is approximately 4.7k essence crafted in an hour. A normal ZMIer crafts 42 essence a run, 40 runs an hour, which is about 1.7k essences crafted in an hour. Hence, a crafter using this service gains 2.75x more experience using this service than a standard ZMIer, or 1.75 more experience additively (subtracting the "1" a crafter would normally receive).

 

Now, according to a RuneWiki test, a level 80 crafter receives on average 7.8k worth of runes per 42 runes, which is 185 gp worth of runes per essence. 26 crafted runes would proportionally be worth 4.8k. With 180 crafting cycles an hour, a crafter would receive 865k worth of runes an hour.

 

The total cost of the crafter's operation is dependent, of course, on his offers to runners. 12k (per 26 essence) pays for the runner's essence and gives approximately the crafted rune's worth, so I will use this value as a baseline. At 180 cycles an hour, 12k costs a crafter 2.15 Million. Factoring in the money gained from the runes produced, and the profit lost from selling the runes crafted the normal way (about 50k), a crafter would pay a whooping 1.29 million an hour using this service.

 

By using the service, a crafter gains an additional 1.75 more experience by paying 1.29 million. In other words, a crafter saves 1.75 hours of runecrafting at the ZMI by paying 1.29 million. For the service to be worth it, a crafter would have to be able to make more than 1.29 million in 1.75 hours, which is a rate of approximately 737k an hour. Hence, a crafter would benefit from using this service, paying 12k every 26 essence, if they made more than 737k an hour.

 

Now, what if runners would be enticed by larger amounts of cash? After all, many higher leveled players make far more than 750k an hour with boss hunting, merchanting, Frost Dragons, etc. What if crafters offered 15k, 20k, or 25k a run?

 

 

Offering 15k a cycle, a crafter would pay 2.8 million an hour using this service, or 1.83 million when runes are sold. For the service to be worth it at 15k a cycle, a crafter would need to make over a million GP an hour.

 

Offering 20k a cycle, a crafter would pay 3.6 million an hour using this service, or 2.73 million when runes are sold. For the service to be worth it at 20k a cycle a crafter would need to make over 1.6 million GP an hour.

 

Offering 25k a cycle, a crafter would pay 4.5 million an hour using this service, or 3.63 million when runes are sold. For the service to be worth it at 25k a cycle, a crafter would need to make over 2 million GP an hour.

 

 

Will do the Runner's calcuations later.

On the runners side:

when doing 4 trades in 2 minutes (4 times tradeing 13 ess, 1 minute walking) - 25k would mean 750k coins an hour..

 

Not really worth it!

[green9090]

I doubt people who only make 2m an hour will be the ones using this, though. I make double that at TDs, meaning I could afford to break even at a wage of 1.4m/hr for runners, which is damn decent.

 

That said, the people doing this will probably be richer than me. We're talking bigtime merchers who can throw away 500m on 99 rc no problem just to have the cape. They might end up paying runners upwards of 60k a cycle, which is quite a profit.

[AlexRose]

Runners

 

For Runners, I assume that:

 

• 
   
  
• 40 normal runs can be made an hour using the ZMI. The time spent trying to find crafters to trade with, however, takes long enough to allow only 25-30 trades an hour.
   
  
• Pure Essence is 170 each.
   
  
• They do not have access to BoB, Pouches, etc., and trade 26 essence a run.
   
  

 

 

26 Pure Essence at 170 each costs 4.4k. The amount of profit a runner makes a run is dependent on the amount crafters offer. If a crafter offers 12k per 26 essence, then the Runner makes 7.6k of profit per run. At 25-30 runs an hour, this is 190-230k of profit an hour.

 

At 15k offered per 26 essence, a runner makes a 10.6k profit per run. At 25-30 runs an hour, this is 265k-320k of profit an hour.

 

At 20k offered per 26 essence, a runner makes a 15.6k profit per run. At 25-30 runs an hour, this is 390k-468k of profit an hour.

 

At 25k offered per 26 essence, a runner makes 20.6k profit per run. At 25-30 runs an hour, this is about 500k-600k an hour.

 

The prices offered at these points all outmatch w66 Laws profits, which is (was?) somewhere in the 100-150k range. If this service were to match that average (lets say 130k) for profitability, then runners would have to make 5200 profit a run at 25 runs an hour. For crafters, they would have to offer a little under 10k to meet this profitability. At 180 Cycles an hour, and 865k from the runes crafted, a crafter would need to make about 500k for the service to be worth it at 10k.

 

 

 

 

It's hard to make solid conclusions exclusively off these calculations. Formerly, the profitability of w66 Laws was more than enough to sustain a functioning company, even after the Pure Essence conversion. Although a ZMI service would probably entice higher income players, even at higher offerings, to craft, it's difficult to judge what runners would feel is a "good" profit in 2010. Most highish leveled players can easily make around 500k an hour at Green Dragons, but with the reimplementation of the wilderness, this could change. Lower leveled players, meanwhile, may be attracted even by the lower price ranges, but again, this is difficult to judge. The only real way to test this idea would be to, well, test it!