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Petition and Fraud? Mistake and Lies? Other? (results on page 4)


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#41
green9090
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They are not issues you can separate. A PK in the old Wilderness rules is identical to a trade whereby one player trades all but x of his/her lowest high alchemy value items to another player directly, and receives nothing in return, where x is his/her item protection value. It is an unbalanced trade. They are one and the same thing.

Yes, but we could have normal item drops on designated PvP worlds rather than bringing back the ability to hunt non-PKers (which is the option I would have voted for). That's a little bit of a separate issue though.
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#42
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I voted other because I don't give a [cabbage] :)
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#43
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I voted they told the truth but I also think they're incompetent :thumbup:

#44
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I think they had already planned to bring wildy and free trade back. They knew that the poll would be positive and that most players would like to see it back. I dont see why they had a petition and then a poll for something they were already going to do since the start...

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#45
Flareboy64
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I voted other. They didn't lie, they just didn't tell the whole truth.

#46
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I had a response a few weeks ago to the article about the poll, but due to real life, I forgot to post it when the forums came back on line after new years. Here it is:


I think there is something missing from both of these articles though. The fact that the wilderness and free trade vote was set up the way it was may not have been entirely stupidity by Jagex. If you read the referendum, it says “We received a petition of 1.2M votes in less than 24 hours!” It named the original vote as a petition. Now petitions usually only require a signature. You sign your name in a long list of names, and then you are done. And it is easily possible to keep going back, and signing more names. John Smith, Joe Smith, Jack Smith, etc. This phase one of the vote was exactly that. First there was a petition to gauge the interest, and then the new ruling/law/idea goes before a panel and gets refined and written up fully. Now, this new idea has taken shape, and the changes that might be implemented are released to be ratified in a more controlled and verifiable manner.

To the people that claim that it was a bit for a Guinness World Record, it is a silly claim. First of all, being the world record holder of some obscure title would generate pretty much 0 publicity. Second, I doubt that there is even a title for largest internet poll, or largest volume of votes in a specified time frame for some poll, or whatever type of record whoever crafted this rumor claimed Jagex was going for. Thinking that this was some desperate bid for a world record is just silly.



tl;dr:

Petitions are by nature easy to abuse, so the fact that this one was is not a surprise. A petition/poll is used all the time to gauge interest, and all are easy to manipulate. This is a known fact about petitions. Claiming it was a World Record attempt is ridiculousness.


Also, having 4 options on this vote would be rather pointless. Think about the reasons for the removal of free trade and the wilderness/staking. They were removed to attempt to eradicate RWT because Jagex felt it was ruining the game/losing money to credit cards/bad for everyone. Now, both were removed for the same reason. To reintroduce one of these aspects of the game would remove all of the reasons for removal of the other.

e.g. Giving back the Wilderness, but not allowing Free Trade would make the removal of Free Trade an utterly pointless and ridiculous action on Jagex' part. None of the reasons given for the removal of Free Trade would be valid, absolutely none of them. And keeping it out while allowing the Wilderness to come back would be insane.

#47
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It seems clear to me that the first "poll" was nothing more that a publicity stunt designed to both generate maximum support for the issue due to the way it was presented (massive signs saying to vote yes with only one option available), and also to get more players back into the game. I don't think that Jagex could be so unbelievably incompetent as to design a whole new page just for this poll when they have been using a perfectly good system for years. They must have known full well that the player base would be largely in favour of this change as numerous players have been screaming for its return these past few years. I'd also be willing to bet that a lot of players who are indifferent on the issue of unbalanced trades and wilderness pking returning are supporting the issue due to the clear mob mentality that has formed. They were already planning on returning things to the way they were, and just wanted to gain the maximum amount of support from the players by acting like they're genuinely willing to take the community's opinions seriously on important issues.

As for Jagex's supposed new methods of bot detection, I feel that they're kidding themselves if they think they can control the problem. Regardless of how advanced they make their systems, newer and better bots will always be developed. The number of bots has not been lowered in any noticeable way lately, so they either haven't implemented these miraculously efficient system of theirs or it doesn't work. Not to mention that, if the did have some revolutionary technology for combating bots, why would they advertise it so much? Why not keep it under the radar in order to catch the casual cheater off guard? And do they really think that by telling the community about it that it will be a sufficient preventative measure? I think that Jagex knows what will happen, and they just want to minimize any backlash from the community.

I can't say for certain what the future of Runescape will hold, but I have my doubts that it will be another "golden age".

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#48
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They didn't lie. The players lied by submitting runescape users that they did not create or own.

This is a really common argument in RS for some reason. People don't blame Jagex for making the GE ridiculously easy to manipulate, they blame players for doing the only logical thing and taking advantage of it. They don't blame Jagex for not being harsh enough about banning bots, they blame players who bot when they know the worst that'll happen is a temp ban and maybe some stat resetting. And now, they don't blame Jagex for encouraging players to vote multiple times by making a vote that allows it, but instead blame the players who did exactly what they'd be expected to do.

The fact is, when you're in charge of controlling or organizing people, it's more often than not your own damn fault if those people don't do what you want. The key is to make what you want them to do be the best course of action- if somebody can profit from doing something you'd rather they didn't (manipulation clans, spam voting), then you need to CHANGE SOMETHING so that it's no longer a smart thing to do (remove GE limits, implement a login on the vote).

In the case of the vote, anyone who thought for half a second about what a player who wants the wilderness back is going to do would realize, oh hey, they're going to write a script to vote over and over. That is Jagex's fault because is was a direct and inescapable result of making a petition in which anyone can vote an infinite number of times. Why blame players for doing exactly what Jagex all but instructed them to do?

Isn't this a pretty big moral argument? Like who is responsible if your house is burglarized - the criminal, or you for leaving the door unlocked?

The way I see it, you simply can't pin the blame on Jagex for their naïvety and inability to expect people to tell the truth in the petition. They had to adjust when they realized how dishonest the community would be about the whole situation - which should have been expected. So, we can blame Jagex for being shortsighted, but not for lying.

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#49
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They didn't lie. The players lied by submitting runescape users that they did not create or own.

This is a really common argument in RS for some reason. People don't blame Jagex for making the GE ridiculously easy to manipulate, they blame players for doing the only logical thing and taking advantage of it. They don't blame Jagex for not being harsh enough about banning bots, they blame players who bot when they know the worst that'll happen is a temp ban and maybe some stat resetting. And now, they don't blame Jagex for encouraging players to vote multiple times by making a vote that allows it, but instead blame the players who did exactly what they'd be expected to do.

The fact is, when you're in charge of controlling or organizing people, it's more often than not your own damn fault if those people don't do what you want. The key is to make what you want them to do be the best course of action- if somebody can profit from doing something you'd rather they didn't (manipulation clans, spam voting), then you need to CHANGE SOMETHING so that it's no longer a smart thing to do (remove GE limits, implement a login on the vote).

In the case of the vote, anyone who thought for half a second about what a player who wants the wilderness back is going to do would realize, oh hey, they're going to write a script to vote over and over. That is Jagex's fault because is was a direct and inescapable result of making a petition in which anyone can vote an infinite number of times. Why blame players for doing exactly what Jagex all but instructed them to do?

Isn't this a pretty big moral argument? Like who is responsible if your house is burglarized - the criminal, or you for leaving the door unlocked?

The way I see it, you simply can't pin the blame on Jagex for their naïvety and inability to expect people to tell the truth in the petition. They had to adjust when they realized how dishonest the community would be about the whole situation - which should have been expected. So, we can blame Jagex for being shortsighted, but not for lying.


What makes you think that it wasn't expected? Jagex have never held an open petition on an update to the game before, for this very reason. The only thing that's changed is the widespread interest in the issue. Suddenly they're acting differently, claiming that 'Your voice matters!' and acting like the community should draw together under this issue, and that includes people who don't even remember their passwords. The whole thing is very intentional, and it wouldn't surprise me if it was proposed by some PR guru at Jagex.

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#50
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I believe that:
-Jagex are, on occasion, utter fails
-People who play Runescape are unbelievably easy to scam/trick into beliving things (which is one of the reasons i support the updates, less morons (hopefully))
-The combination of the two above leads to a crazy number of logicless, moronic accusations of Jagex and a lot of Runescape players are genuinely stupid enough to believe them
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#51
Ts_Stormrage
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They didn't lie. The players lied by submitting runescape users that they did not create or own.

This is a really common argument in RS for some reason. People don't blame Jagex for making the GE ridiculously easy to manipulate, they blame players for doing the only logical thing and taking advantage of it. They don't blame Jagex for not being harsh enough about banning bots, they blame players who bot when they know the worst that'll happen is a temp ban and maybe some stat resetting. And now, they don't blame Jagex for encouraging players to vote multiple times by making a vote that allows it, but instead blame the players who did exactly what they'd be expected to do.

The fact is, when you're in charge of controlling or organizing people, it's more often than not your own damn fault if those people don't do what you want. The key is to make what you want them to do be the best course of action- if somebody can profit from doing something you'd rather they didn't (manipulation clans, spam voting), then you need to CHANGE SOMETHING so that it's no longer a smart thing to do (remove GE limits, implement a login on the vote).

In the case of the vote, anyone who thought for half a second about what a player who wants the wilderness back is going to do would realize, oh hey, they're going to write a script to vote over and over. That is Jagex's fault because is was a direct and inescapable result of making a petition in which anyone can vote an infinite number of times. Why blame players for doing exactly what Jagex all but instructed them to do?

Isn't this a pretty big moral argument? Like who is responsible if your house is burglarized - the criminal, or you for leaving the door unlocked?

The way I see it, you simply can't pin the blame on Jagex for their naïvety and inability to expect people to tell the truth in the petition. They had to adjust when they realized how dishonest the community would be about the whole situation - which should have been expected. So, we can blame Jagex for being shortsighted, but not for lying.


What makes you think that it wasn't expected? Jagex have never held an open petition on an update to the game before, for this very reason. The only thing that's changed is the widespread interest in the issue. Suddenly they're acting differently, claiming that 'Your voice matters!' and acting like the community should draw together under this issue, and that includes people who don't even remember their passwords. The whole thing is very intentional, and it wouldn't surprise me if it was proposed by some PR guru at Jagex.


If it was a PR stunt, then why not say so afterwards? No they claimed it was just another way of gauging support for the changes... To me it looks like they messed up and didn't want to say so... If they came out right now and said "you knwo what, you're right, we all did this to make the cmmmunity as aware of it as possible" I might be more inclined to your way of thinking... But they didn't, so I'm not...

As to the argument whether I should blame Jagex or the people that are abusing it; I'm a paying customer, so I expect the quality product they promised... If Jagex are going to use these polls and petitions as grounds to legitimize rolling back the changes that, in their own words, once threatened to ruin RuneScape altogether, I have every right to question their logic and every right to some answers too...

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#52
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#53
rthensley
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The return of free trade and the old Wildy was a forgone conclusion (by JAGEX) before the first petition was released. Don't kid yourselves. The decision was made behind closed JAGEX doors many weeks ago. The petition was only a means to generate discussion among current and former players.


Supposedly some things will be relocated when the old Wilderness returns. I assume one of those things would be penguins. Don't you think the release of the Zanaris penguin many weeks ago was a "test run" of a penguin in a new location? I do.

Bots & credit card fraud were flourishing under the old system. My bank refused to allow my debit card to be used to pay for my subscription because of this. Obviously JAGEX DOES have improved bot detection methods ready to go or they would not be taking this chance. I bet they might have even tested this system in the past. Remember the stat rollbacks & asking those effected players to submit bug reports. I have no doubt that was part of getting the new bot detectiion methods ready to go. I also have no doubt that those players suspected of botting will get rollbacks/banned much, much quicker when free trade returns.
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#54
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They're a business. Business's don't always do things the way the customer see's fit and they don't always have 100% transparency. However, with Jagex I believe this was intended to be a PR stunt that would lead into their 10th year of business with a bang and leave the customers wanting more and leaving the company with fatter pockets. What we are seeing now might not have been the intended plan, but an elaborated plan to draw attention to their brand and possibly the return of free trade.

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#55
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cynic

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i voted they told the truth, but really i don't care

#56
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I posted this on the Wilderness/Free Trade topic, but it got eaten by pages of off-topic posts so I will re-post since it is more applicable to this topic.

I really see no problem with how the voting has been implemented. It's similar to ballot initiatives in states like California. All you need to put an initiative on the ballot for the people to vote on is to get one million signatures on a petition from registered voters. Then, during the next election (either presidential or mid-term) the people vote yes or no on the initiative. The yes/no/don't care voting stage we are in now shows that the players want this and I think it's great that Jagex decided to let their players make the decision. No one is closer to their game than the players are.


I think they did the absolute right thing. They put a petition out to see if this was actually worth voting on, how else would they have known? Now we've all voted and it is quite clear from both the petition and vote that the community wants the 2007 changes reversed.

Edit: And to those that are griping about it being a PR move...I don't understand this. We have known for years that Jagex is a company that relies on revenues to keep this game and their other projects afloat. All of a sudden it's not okay for them to make money?

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#57
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Incompetent to create a bogus poll that makes no sense.. to create a second poll that doesnt offer enough options.

Also, they are lying about being able to handle bots if they allow this update. Adding incentive != Less botting. It encourages it. The same way a poll that allows everyone to vote was actually a mistake. I prefer not to have a community turn towards a diablo 2 style community. Which is fine for that game..but not for runescape. Not for me anyway.

I am all for going back in time and not removing free trade to begin with. Then was the time to not do it. However putting it back now, displaying such incompetence with the poll and gossiping in clanchats is amazingly unprofessional. Even for Jagex..

Perhaps if they where more professional and actually had responsible new actions to take against bots it would be fine. As it is..Its just weird and unprofessional. Not good to show so many obvious lies..cover-ups..Isnt good. Im not stupid and its insulting for someone who can see between whats happening.

I would be excited for free trade if it wasnt for that.

Its like they had this amazing update to offer but slipped on pile of goo and it landed flat in their face...Then they told us they did it on purpose and wanted to see peoples thoughts and responses. Told us how they created a super machine that can K.O bots that for some reason or other they havnt released yet....Then made another attempt at a poll with a lack of options.

All the while they seem to be obviously biased and will release wild anyway lol. That part of its obvious PR, which is fine lol but its obvious. 'Who wants an amazing update' Vote YES! ..or.. YES! (No option for no lol >.<)

If only they didnt use goofy to announce the news.
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#58
K112
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I voted other, as far as i'm concerned it's pure PR.
They've never done anything like this before, and I can't imagine that if they brought free trade and the old style wilderness back, people would complain.
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#59
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Publicity stunt.

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#60
Ts_Stormrage
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Cynic? or realist?

It's a cliché but there you have it...

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