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Petition and Fraud? Mistake and Lies? Other? (results on page 4)


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#61
Roz
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Mine is option D, they just did it for more publicity. Why have one poll which may get some interest when you can have two?-My bad if this is another option, haven't slept for 36 hours.


I think Jagex decided to bring back wildy, but have a vote to keep the immature PKers happy, and so they believe they had a part in bringing it back; keeping them at bay.

#62
Jordan Armstrong
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You gave 4 different options, but I don't think you took this into account:

The "old" wildy and free trade go hand in hand. If you bring back the "old" wildy, that includes the dropping of carried items.
In my humble opinion, you can't bring back such a thing without also bringing back free trade.
In this sense, the options they gave for the vote are adequate.

In response to whether they lied to us, I don't think so. I think it was meant to be an easy way for users to vote.

anyway, good post :)

#63
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They didn't lie. The players lied by submitting runescape users that they did not create or own.

This is a really common argument in RS for some reason. People don't blame Jagex for making the GE ridiculously easy to manipulate, they blame players for doing the only logical thing and taking advantage of it. They don't blame Jagex for not being harsh enough about banning bots, they blame players who bot when they know the worst that'll happen is a temp ban and maybe some stat resetting. And now, they don't blame Jagex for encouraging players to vote multiple times by making a vote that allows it, but instead blame the players who did exactly what they'd be expected to do.

The fact is, when you're in charge of controlling or organizing people, it's more often than not your own damn fault if those people don't do what you want. The key is to make what you want them to do be the best course of action- if somebody can profit from doing something you'd rather they didn't (manipulation clans, spam voting), then you need to CHANGE SOMETHING so that it's no longer a smart thing to do (remove GE limits, implement a login on the vote).

In the case of the vote, anyone who thought for half a second about what a player who wants the wilderness back is going to do would realize, oh hey, they're going to write a script to vote over and over. That is Jagex's fault because is was a direct and inescapable result of making a petition in which anyone can vote an infinite number of times. Why blame players for doing exactly what Jagex all but instructed them to do?

Isn't this a pretty big moral argument? Like who is responsible if your house is burglarized - the criminal, or you for leaving the door unlocked?

The way I see it, you simply can't pin the blame on Jagex for their naïvety and inability to expect people to tell the truth in the petition. They had to adjust when they realized how dishonest the community would be about the whole situation - which should have been expected. So, we can blame Jagex for being shortsighted, but not for lying.


What makes you think that it wasn't expected? Jagex have never held an open petition on an update to the game before, for this very reason. The only thing that's changed is the widespread interest in the issue. Suddenly they're acting differently, claiming that 'Your voice matters!' and acting like the community should draw together under this issue, and that includes people who don't even remember their passwords. The whole thing is very intentional, and it wouldn't surprise me if it was proposed by some PR guru at Jagex.


If it was a PR stunt, then why not say so afterwards? No they claimed it was just another way of gauging support for the changes... To me it looks like they messed up and didn't want to say so... If they came out right now and said "you knwo what, you're right, we all did this to make the cmmmunity as aware of it as possible" I might be more inclined to your way of thinking... But they didn't, so I'm not...

As to the argument whether I should blame Jagex or the people that are abusing it; I'm a paying customer, so I expect the quality product they promised... If Jagex are going to use these polls and petitions as grounds to legitimize rolling back the changes that, in their own words, once threatened to ruin RuneScape altogether, I have every right to question their logic and every right to some answers too...



Where is the need to explicitly say that it was a PR stunt afterwards? To satisfy one guy on a fansite forum? Jagex advertised poll everywhere where they held influence, put up facilities to spread the word on social networking sites. They made the community as aware of it as possible, that's a fact. I'm not sure how you can deny that.

Of course you have a right to some answers, and here's a couple of them: They are doing this now because they say that they can take on the bots. The technology has changed, and Jagex believe that it is capable enough over time to deal with RWTing. They must have managed to convince the credit card companies, because they have withdrawn their ultimatums.

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#64
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We need 4 more votes for incompetance
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#65
Ts_Stormrage
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lol, why...

I think the trend is pretty clear...

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#66
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Of course you have a right to some answers, and here's a couple of them: They are doing this now because they say that they can take on the bots. The technology has changed, and Jagex believe that it is capable enough over time to deal with RWTing. They must have managed to convince the credit card companies, because they have withdrawn their ultimatums.

Or haven't got word of it yet. Can't imagine that there's any big cheese in the banks looking out for whether Jagex is inadvertently fueling credit card fraud. There's bigger issues on their hands than the relative liberalism of the RS economy and its effect on real world crime. If a company can't be trusted to organise the proverbial drink session in a brewery with the first petition without making it so insecure that basically every account that's ever existed was accounted for, how can they be trusted to take on an issue that plenty of games companies have tried (and failed) to resolve in RWT and botting?

#67
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Of course you have a right to some answers, and here's a couple of them: They are doing this now because they say that they can take on the bots. The technology has changed, and Jagex believe that it is capable enough over time to deal with RWTing. They must have managed to convince the credit card companies, because they have withdrawn their ultimatums.

Or haven't got word of it yet. Can't imagine that there's any big cheese in the banks looking out for whether Jagex is inadvertently fueling credit card fraud. There's bigger issues on their hands than the relative liberalism of the RS economy and its effect on real world crime. If a company can't be trusted to organise the proverbial drink session in a brewery with the first petition without making it so insecure that basically every account that's ever existed was accounted for, how can they be trusted to take on an issue that plenty of games companies have tried (and failed) to resolve in RWT and botting?


I can imagine it very easily. For banks, nothing is a bigger issue than the one that is losing them money, and Jagex is a really big customer. I would think that banks regularly investigate whether any companies that they are serving are facilitating credit card fraud by law anyway. Similarly, Jagex would never commit financial suicide so quickly when there's plenty more solid years of potential development in front of them. They could have never put up the poll in the first place and still have a virtually guaranteed profit for at least the next 3 financial years. Not too long ago, we saw a Runescape trailer showing much more advanced concept animations than we have now which will only really be possible in the game over years of development. They're acting very much like a company that's still in it for the long term.

What has their ability to hold polls and PR stunts got to do with how good they are at combating bots? They're two very different kinds of competence.

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#68
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Fair point, but I don't see what makes Jagex stand out from every other company in history that has tried to combat botting, and failed. The line "We couldn't do it before but we can now" doesn't really convince me otherwise without details.

#69
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Fair point, but I don't see what makes Jagex stand out from every other company in history that has tried to combat botting, and failed. The line "We couldn't do it before but we can now" doesn't really convince me otherwise without details.

And all one has to do is take a peek at the Ess Mines or the CT dragons to see that botters are still a major issue. I don't see Jagex releasing some magical super-mega-9001th version of their anti-macro system the day the bring back the Wild and Free Trade. It's just lip service to try to fool the blind and the naive.

But as I said earlier, who really cares about bots. Skilling is and has been a crappy money-maker for as long as I can remember, and having a bunch more bots will just making training skills like prayer more affordable. Also, the extra money skillers made when the bots left after 12/10 (and resulted in more expensive resources) just went into price manipulators' pockets. And price manipulators (combined with the broken GE mechanics which they abuse) are far more of an inconvenience than bots ever were. It'll be nice once cash is king again and you can pay 800 or 900m cash for a divine spirit shield outright if you have the money, instead of having to jump through all these hoops acquiring rares to barter with instead.
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#70
Ts_Stormrage
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@ Dragonlordjlkp;;
I agree completely with your statement about Jagex probably being unable to combat bots, especially since their own news post said so...

But bots being something to ignore? I think not... With Unbalanced Trade returning this will definitly bring Gold Farmers back in business, meaning a MAHOOSIVE increase in bots...
You may not remember the days when skilling was a good moneymaker, but I do... Check some of my older Times articles for some more detailed reports of the days when alching Yew Longbows and fishing Sharks was profitable (seers and catherby were the main economic hotspots), and how bots ruined it...

Skilling (some of it) used to be profitable, and bots ruined this giant part of what was once a very diversive game... A few cheaper dragon bones is not worth this, if you ask me...

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#71
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@ Dragonlordjlkp;;
I agree completely with your statement about Jagex probably being unable to combat bots, especially since their own news post said so...

But bots being something to ignore? I think not... With Unbalanced Trade returning this will definitly bring Gold Farmers back in business, meaning a MAHOOSIVE increase in bots...
You may not remember the days when skilling was a good moneymaker, but I do... Check some of my older Times articles for some more detailed reports of the days when alching Yew Longbows and fishing Sharks was profitable (seers and catherby were the main economic hotspots), and how bots ruined it...

Skilling (some of it) used to be profitable, and bots ruined this giant part of what was once a very diversive game... A few cheaper dragon bones is not worth this, if you ask me...

No, definitely. I do remember the days when skilling was a decent moneymaker, but combat has always been a better moneymaker except for RC and even RC has suffered IMMENSELY. My point was that skilling is already so terrible for money-making that the return of the clone armies won't hurt it that much. And I'd much rather deal with skills making slightly less money than deal with the rigid price controls in the GE that necessitate the somewhat-arbitrary "street prices" and junk trading.

That being said, I don't want to see the old Wilderness return, even though I know the two go hand-in-hand and Jagex wouldn't bring back one without the other. People can say whatever they want, I still believe that the game was far better off without many of the personalities that left when Jagex "killed the Wilderness." There is a reason many of the "e-famous" pures ended up perm-muted... I'm going to leave it at that, because I don't want this thread to turn into a massive "skillers vs PKers" flame-fest like the other thread.
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#72
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Not to worry; I apparently agree with you with just one sidenote:

The only reason massive increases of bots will not hurt much; is because there already so many...

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#73
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Not to worry; I apparently agree with you with just one sidenote:

The only reason massive increases of bots will not hurt much; is because there already so many...

which proves that restricting trade was ineffective at fighting bots

we already know that restricting trade was ineffective at fighting RWT, so what exactly has it accomplished? and why exactly should the restrictions remain?

#74
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Not to worry; I apparently agree with you with just one sidenote:

The only reason massive increases of bots will not hurt much; is because there already so many...

which proves that restricting trade was ineffective at fighting bots

we already know that restricting trade was ineffective at fighting RWT, so what exactly has it accomplished? and why exactly should the restrictions remain?

I feel like the best question is what they actually did so that the effects of RWT didn't and haven't overcome the game like they predicted they would.
You know, if the restrictions were as ineffective as you think.

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#75
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Not to worry; I apparently agree with you with just one sidenote:

The only reason massive increases of bots will not hurt much; is because there already so many...

which proves that restricting trade was ineffective at fighting bots

we already know that restricting trade was ineffective at fighting RWT, so what exactly has it accomplished? and why exactly should the restrictions remain?

I feel like the best question is what they actually did so that the effects of RWT didn't and haven't overcome the game like they predicted they would.
You know, if the restrictions were as ineffective as you think.

Simple: Jagex exaggerated about the end of days RWT would bring about way back when they took away free trade. Since RWT and botting are still major problems, that's the only possible explanation.
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#76
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So green: They lied AND are imcompetent?

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#77
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Oh yes.
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#78
Ts_Stormrage
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And the results are in:

- Only 4 out of 10 people believe Jagex told the truth about the whole ordeal, and that they meant to put a petition first and a poll later...

- 1 in 6 believe Jagex lied (which seems more often than not to go hand in hand with the incompetence option) and do not believe that they meant to put a second poll in place, nor believe the reasons for the need of the 2nd poll...

- Every third person believes Jagex screwed up at least once in the whole ordeal of gauging the support for the planned changes...

- 1 in 10 people had a different opinion ranging from:
"All of the above" and "none of the above", to believing this whole thing being just a publicity stunt, to simply not giving a crap...

Thanks for playing everyone :)

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#79
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I pretty much 100% agree with the results. I guess we'll know in a few weeks too if they have an update with the changes or not :ohnoes:




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