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Analysis: Ely vs Div in a PvM Setting


TheAncient

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It is well established that Divine is superior to Elysian in both PVM and PVP settings. However, exactly how much better Divine is has been a murky subject. Seeing how Elysian's street value is less than half of Divine's, one should seriously call into question choosing Divine over Elysian.

 

For pvp, Divine is much stronger than Elysian. KO's are the biggest issue in PVP, and Divine does a much better job by consistently preventing damage (opposed to Elysian's 70% activation percentage).

 

For pvm, the two shields are comparable. Of course, Divine is better, but the difference is actually small.

 

Since this is a pvm situation and not pvp situation, KO potential is a much smaller issue and we can instead look at average protection over time. Elysian prevents an average of 17.5% damage at no cost, while Divine prevents an average of 30% damage at the cost of 15% of the damage reducing your pray. Therefore, Divine prevents an additional 12.5% at the cost of 15% damage being diverted to pray.

 

Assuming maxed stats, a prayer potion restores 31*4 = 124 Prayer Potions. With a Divine, a prayer pot can account for 1240*12.5/15 = 1030 Damage. This is obviously better healing per slot than a brew, which only restores 169*4 = 676 Damage. Moreover, brews reduce your stats which lower your DPS. Clearly, Divine is a better choice for overall damage protection.

 

Assuming no SS (all your healing comes from brews), you can only apply this Brew->PPot conversion for 12.5% (30%-17.5%) of your brews. Assuming 35 brews per trip (valid for Bandos and Nex), 12.5% of your brews is 4.375 brews. Each brew that you "convert" from Ely to Div is 1030-676 = 354 damage saved. 4.375*354 = 1548.75 extra damage prevented by using a Divine per inventory; this is only a difference of 2.3 effective brews per trip. This is actually pretty insignificant compared to the 400M+ difference in street price of the two shields.

 

Moreover, in situations where a lot of your healing comes from SS (DKs tribrid) and you need to bring a much smaller number of brews, the effectiveness of divine is reduced to only 0.5-1.5 extra brews worth of healing per inventory.

 

Elysian is a strong substitute for Divine; it is hardly a strictly inferior shield for PVM. It clearly has its weaknesses (brews reduce stats, ppots do not; higher KO region). However, so does divine (easier to get smited out, 400M difference in cost). The cost is an even more important issue now that the 400M you save by buying an Elysian can be spent on pernix or torva.

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Some valid points, but you've got to understand that the pro's only want the best of the best. That's why they use karil over dhide, DFS over obby shield etc... Every bit counts when you're a pro :D

 

I'm also starting to think your calculations are wrong (the part where you say you can only apply it on 12.5 percent of your brews). I think it's more complicated than just substracting the percentages.

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Some valid points, but you've got to understand that the pro's only want the best of the best. That's why they use karil over dhide, DFS over obby shield etc... Every bit counts when you're a pro :D

 

I can totally understand that, but not everyone can buy a 800M+ shield and still have money to spare. 350-400M is a much more reasonable price for most people.

Div/ely are not really *THAT* good (curses/ovls are much more powerful and cheaper). Ely only saves ~6 brews. At the end of the day, they are luxury items.

 

I'm also starting to think your calculations are wrong (the part where you say you can only apply it on 12.5 percent of your brews). I think it's more complicated than just substracting the percentages.

What do you think the calculation should be, then?

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I'm thinking about it right now (the calculations)

 

EDIT: seems you were right, sorry.

 

But I still think that inventory plays a role too. I think an optimal "divine inventory" vs. an optimal "ely inventory" is more difference than 2 brews. Right now, you just say that for 12.5% of the damage, you save 300something LP for div vs. ely, but I'm not sure if that really translates to an invo like you stated it. But then again, I might be wrong again :-)

 

EDIT: gotcha I think. Let's say you get hit 500 (no reduction). With divine, that will be 350 and with ely it will be 412.5. That's 62.5 damage difference for the cost of 7.5 pray pots. You said, okay 62.5/500 is 12.5%, so you can only apply it on 12.5% of your brews. Now, I think you shouldn't do 62.5/500, but 62.5/350 or 412.5, cause that will be the actualy damage you take, and that will be the actual brews you drink. Now things will get complicated, and I don't really know how to continue, but this is what I mean with "it's more complicated". Might be wrong again though

 

(grr, i'm gonna leave this, got to study)

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I'd also say the calculations are a bit off. I remember the thread on RSOF showing that it was a bigger difference than that. Let me think about it for a minute...

 

EDIT: Well I'm not really feeling the math right now. It's clear that divine, strictly in terms of inventory space, IS better. This is magnified considerably when using extreme prayer potions.

 

But you need to take into account the less tangible effects. Waiting longer before brewing up is huge. The number of kills you get where you don't eat at all on some bosses goes up by a lot - this means no attacking with reduced stats, no missing rounds of combat when you spam brew, etc.

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for this whole post I'm gonna use bandos as an example: my position is that divine is a LOT better than ely

 

1- You can keep your hp generally lower in pvm with a divine and once graardor dies your hp will almost always end with 990 from ss'ing minis so that's like a potential brew dose saved/kill (keep hp above 500 w/ ely 350 w/ divine, so that's a brew dose difference nearly everytime)

 

2- Assuming you start 990 lp at each kill from ss'ing minis, which will almost always be the case: you can take 640 damage w/ divine and 450 from ely before having to brew but it also takes longer for your hp to get dropped that low with those shields. you can take 914.3 raw damage with divine before having to brew and 514.3 with ely. that's a HUGE difference

 

3- Uni can keep up with divine, it can not keep up with ely, you can honestly just take 7 ovls, 4 brews + divine and last all 7 with just uni ( not used because bones are a part of the profit). Whereas 4 brews wont last you more than 2 ovls with ely. assuming you get 3 uni specs/kill which is reasonable as kills take 2 mins (full bar takes 2 mins) and you only really need to use them at the boss: that means divine can take 1144 damage with it's effect and ely can take 954, that means divine can take 1634 damage and ely can take 1090 that is a 543 extra raw damage a divine can take over an ely, so you have to brew a LOT more with ely than divine using uni.

 

4- Most people do bandos w/ super prayers and a divine can salvage it more than an ely can

 

5- Graardor drops restores and has an alter every 10 minutes which might as well be considered a food source for divine users. Yes it drops sharks/potatoes too but divine can make a lot more uses out of them compared to ely

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For bandos, if youre good at controlling your HP level well you can get a lot of healing off SS minions

 

Also, if youre good you can time your brews to 1-2 secs before your overloads restore. bandos damage rate is moderate (less than nex) so if youre good you definitely can do this. This makes the "brewing more with ely" argument less relevant.

 

I'd also say the calculations are a bit off. I remember the thread on RSOF showing that it was a bigger difference than that. Let me think about it for a minute...

 

EDIT: Well I'm not really feeling the math right now. It's clear that divine, strictly in terms of inventory space, IS better. This is magnified considerably when using extreme prayer potions.

 

But you need to take into account the less tangible effects. Waiting longer before brewing up is huge. The number of kills you get where you don't eat at all on some bosses goes up by a lot - this means no attacking with reduced stats, no missing rounds of combat when you spam brew, etc.

 

Not trying to be defensive here, but as of yet I don't see whats wrong with my math. Is there a QFC or something to that other post?

 

I also don't always use super prays because makign them is time-consuming, also I sometimes like to mix in super rests in my yak; also, the difference is not that significant because you usually won't have purely super pray ( a large majroity will still be super rests ). even with pure super prays that's only like a 1.3x multiplier

 

I mentioned those downsides and I agree with them. Div is clearly better than Ely, I just don't think its enough to warrant a twofold price difference

 

2- Assuming you start 990 lp at each kill from ss'ing minis, which will almost always be the case: you can take 640 damage w/ divine and 450 from ely before having to brew but it also takes longer for your hp to get dropped that low with those shields. you can take 914.3 raw damage with divine before having to brew and 514.3 with ely. that's a HUGE difference

 

This really depends on how much HP youre willing to safe to; also, youre assuming you always eat right before you go under your "safe limit" which isn't always optimal (sometimes better to eat a high HP at beginning of kill if youre timed right before an OVL boost)

 

Also have to account for the fact that with div youll have to praypot more (potentially even panic pot) b/c of chance you might get smited out

 

___

 

At any rate, let me re-emphasize the main point of my argument: I agree completely that Div is uncontroversially better than Ely, I just don't think this difference is worth giving up a lvl80 armor piece for. In other words, when considering buying pro gear, you should first go for a ely and/or lvl80 armor before div.

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I know the thread he was talking about. It was called Shield Analysis. By the poster Warlock. It was posted within the week after the Dungeoneering update. It is not on the RSOF anymore, but the difference between the shields was a bit greater then what you have come up with iirc.

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I would personally consider divine before torva/pernix because divine is more versatile. Sure, I might be able to get ely + one top, but where am I going to use that top? Not tds, not either Nex or Zamorak/Saradomin GWD. Also, divine doesn't need recharging, and although I have nothing against degrading per sé, it will cut into your gp/hr.

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I would personally consider divine before torva/pernix because divine is more versatile. Sure, I might be able to get ely + one top, but where am I going to use that top? Not tds, not either Nex or Zamorak/Saradomin GWD. Also, divine doesn't need recharging, and although I have nothing against degrading per sé, it will cut into your gp/hr.

 

You obviously wouldnt use torva, but you use pernix top for all major bosses where Div>>Ely (Nex, Bandos)

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I'd have a melee accuracy penalty, besides, I'd use divine to tank Zilyana and Kril, use void at tds, and I would only use pernix at Nex and Kree. Oh and BCP @ DKS.

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I'd have a melee accuracy penalty, besides, I'd use divine to tank Zilyana and Kril, use void at tds, and I would only use pernix at Nex and Kree.

 

Meh if youre considering the melee accuracy tradeoff, you can only fairly compare pernix vs karil and not pernix vs arma. in that case you trade off 8 attack bonus for +10 magic defense bonus, +8 ranged attack, +1 pray, which is easily worth it. questionable for bandos, but i'd still strongly say ely+pernix >> div for bandos

 

Idk who does Zil/Kril seriously nowadays; theyre pretty irrelevant as far as profitable bosshunting goes (~1/600 droprate for something thats like... 30M)

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So is Graardor, isn't it? Right now DKS are at the top as far as I know (where you ss a lot for health, as you say).

 

And Nex is good cash I guess, but I read on the strategy thread... a sec.

 

I think it depends heavily on your team and your own skills. Nex has special attacks and ordinary attacks. A good team, composed of experience players, will rarely take damage from the special attacks. You will choose the server carefully to avoid high ping, and make sure to dodge and avoid every attack possible, even those that require a teammate's help. If this is the case, Divine is the most important, seeing as it will reduce the majority of the damage you've taken by a consistent 30%.

 

On the other hand, if you're consistently getting hit by 1 or 2 shadow attacks every kill, your team is positioning badly in the smoke phase, and your teammates never save you from ice prisons, you're going to be losing a lot of health to attacks that Divine doesn't block. If that's your situation, Pernix will be much better as it raises the amount your brews restore.

 

Basically, Divine is going to benefit you greatly against nonavoidable attacks. Pernix will help a fair amount against avoidable and unavoidable attacks alike. The question is how frequently you avoid the avoidable attacks. Ideally, you would use both.

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Tormented demon drops: twenty effigies, nine pairs of claws, two dragon armour slices and one elite clue | Dagannoth king drops: two dragon hatchets, two elite clues, one archer ring and one warrior ring

Glacor drops: four pairs of ragefire boots, one pair of steadfast boots, six effigies, two hundred lots of Armadyl shards, three elite clues | Nex split: Torva boots | Kalphite King split: off-hand drygore mace

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So is Graardor, isn't it? Right now DKS are at the top as far as I know (where you ss a lot for health, as you say).

 

Graar is still moderately good money since youre not goign for hilts; youre going for armor pieces. armor pieces are much more common (~1/150 for both).

 

DKS is actually pretty bad profit nowadays - at least nothign compared to what they used to be. rings, axes, and bones have all gone down significantly

 

To your edit:

I think Pernix + Ely is a better comparison to divine than pernix against divine. im pretty confident pernix top will not go for 600M+, and ely will probably be 350-400M; div will be around 800-1B

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I know the thread he was talking about. It was called Shield Analysis. By the poster Warlock. It was posted within the week after the Dungeoneering update. It is not on the RSOF anymore, but the difference between the shields was a bit greater then what you have come up with iirc.

TheAncient has a scalar result, which might not be a great indicator.

Because a scalar result depends on another property (in this case the # of inventory slots dedicated to brews/potions)

 

presumably Warlock came up with a Scalar output as well.

 

furthermore it's worth noting that that rounding error favors the elysian.

Because the the amount of prayer removed, for the health saved is rounded up.

 

so if you get hit for 4 LP, and the divine reduces it to 3 LP, you still lose 1 prayer point from my understanding (can't say for sure, I don't own a divine)

 

assuming this to be true, and assuming nex's magic attacks deal anywhere from 1 to 369 damage, each damage point being equally likely (which also may or may not be true, she might have a min damage boost for all we know)

 

you take on average 185.0 damage per accurate hit without either shields

130.0 with divine per accurate hit

152.9 with elysian per accurate hit

 

and on average you lose 3.25 prayer points per accurate hit with a divine.

 

So now, lets see.

You have 58 inventory slots in a nex trip.

lets say you bring for the no divine/elysian setup.

2 overloads

5 super prayers

10 super restores

1 antipoison

1 unicorn pouch

unicorn scroll stack

d claws

1 teleport

2 spec restores

34 brews

 

also assume no pernix for the moment.

with a divine, you'd have the same benefit of 34 brews with 23.88 brews.

but it would cost you 1.29 super restores(4)

so divine frees up an extra 8.83 inventory slots for you.

 

now assume no pernix, with elysian

you'll have the benefit of 34 brews with 25.57 brews.

but it wouldn't cost you extra potions.

so the elysian frees up 8.43 inventory slots for you.

 

as you can see, once you factor in the rounding error with the assumptions I used above, you find that the margin between divine and elysian is even smaller.

Granted divine is still better. Always.

Having pernix favors elysian over divine, as you the ratio of prayer points you can restore per inv slot, vs HP per inv slot diminishes.

but my calculations still indicate that even with pernix, divine is still always better.

But by margins even smaller than the 0.4 inventory slots I just calculated for you.

 

of course less brewing = more damage output. This consideration is not factored into such a calculation, and it would favor the divine.

and of course this is based on the assumptions I made above, which may or may not be true due to lack of nex data.

 

but uh yeah.

I'm pretty sure rounding error exists.

and that it favors elysian.

 

another assumption I made, that favors elysian, is that I assumed the extra prayer needed would be replaced by super restores.

This may not be accurate as if you brewed less, you wouldn't need as many super restores and could just bring super prayer potions.

 

anyways yeah I'm not gonna think about it too hard.

I can't afford full pernix + divine as it is for nex.

And the simple fact of the matter is, I'd rather have a pernix top + elysian shield than just a divine if it boiled down to getting either or.

 

Oh: yet another assumption that this calculation makes: there do not exist decimal prayer points.

Once again, I don't own a divine, so I can't test it.

SORRY.

 

but ultimately the calculation I did highly favors the elysian.

And the divine is still always better, even with full pernix etc.

the calculation just points to the difference being marginal.

 

bottom line is the difference between ely and divine at nex is on the order of half a potion.

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This math is completely invalid because, as has been mentioned, being able to brew later is a gigantic, difficult to quantify advantage. The guaranteed damage reduction means that you are safe letting yourself drop to a lower hp and be safe from KOs, meaning you have more time at 125 stats to try to finish the boss and/or soul split flash your hp back up. This can often mean not taking a brew in a kill you otherwise would have had to, and brew taking leads to more brew taking. If Graar is at 1/4 hp and you have to brew, you're probably going to spend long enough getting your stats back to 125 and being able to hit him well that you're going to have to brew again, so anything that makes having to brew at that point less likely is a humongous advantage both in terms of time and supplies.

 

Before overloads, ely was actually a decent option for PvM, and I'd have agreed the difference was somewhat small. Now that this mechanic of harming your damage output by healing exists, though, there's no comparison. Divine is leagues better than ely.

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This math is completely invalid because, as has been mentioned, being able to brew later is a gigantic, difficult to quantify advantage. The guaranteed damage reduction means that you are safe letting yourself drop to a lower hp and be safe from KOs, meaning you have more time at 125 stats to try to finish the boss and/or soul split flash your hp back up. This can often mean not taking a brew in a kill you otherwise would have had to, and brew taking leads to more brew taking. If Graar is at 1/4 hp and you have to brew, you're probably going to spend long enough getting your stats back to 125 and being able to hit him well that you're going to have to brew again, so anything that makes having to brew at that point less likely is a humongous advantage both in terms of time and supplies.

 

Before overloads, ely was actually a decent option for PvM, and I'd have agreed the difference was somewhat small. Now that this mechanic of harming your damage output by healing exists, though, there's no comparison. Divine is leagues better than ely.

math is invalid because it doesn't account for all the details?

math almost never accounts for all the details.

People use it anyways though.

Because it's useful even if it doesn't account for all the details.

 

stop trolling, you have no idea what you're talking about.

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2- Assuming you start 990 lp at each kill from ss'ing minis, which will almost always be the case: you can take 640 damage w/ divine and 450 from ely before having to brew but it also takes longer for your hp to get dropped that low with those shields. you can take 914.3 raw damage with divine before having to brew and 514.3 with ely. that's a HUGE difference

 

This really depends on how much HP youre willing to safe to; also, youre assuming you always eat right before you go under your "safe limit" which isn't always optimal (sometimes better to eat a high HP at beginning of kill if youre timed right before an OVL boost)

 

Also have to account for the fact that with div youll have to praypot more (potentially even panic pot) b/c of chance you might get smited out

 

 

Its easy to do complete kills with divine using yak and no brews, id rather wait till i got under 350 and drink 2 doses of brew (99 att/str for 1-12 seconds) than waste brews and end the kill with more hp than I would need since the minis guarantee max hp. Of course theres gonna be times when i brew up early (graar is full hp while im like 500) but more times than not I won't need to. You can pretty much live off ss flicking graar unless you get unlucky hits.

 

Also drinking one dose of rest at a time won't delay your hits at all so you wouldn't need to panic rest/ppot

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This math is completely invalid because, as has been mentioned, being able to brew later is a gigantic, difficult to quantify advantage. The guaranteed damage reduction means that you are safe letting yourself drop to a lower hp and be safe from KOs, meaning you have more time at 125 stats to try to finish the boss and/or soul split flash your hp back up. This can often mean not taking a brew in a kill you otherwise would have had to, and brew taking leads to more brew taking. If Graar is at 1/4 hp and you have to brew, you're probably going to spend long enough getting your stats back to 125 and being able to hit him well that you're going to have to brew again, so anything that makes having to brew at that point less likely is a humongous advantage both in terms of time and supplies.

 

Before overloads, ely was actually a decent option for PvM, and I'd have agreed the difference was somewhat small. Now that this mechanic of harming your damage output by healing exists, though, there's no comparison. Divine is leagues better than ely.

math is invalid because it doesn't account for all the details?

math never accounts for all the details.

People use it anyways though.

Because it's useful even if it doesn't account for all the details.

 

stop trolling, you have no idea what you're talking about.

It's invalid because it doesn't even scratch the surface of what the advantage of a divine is. It's like doing math proving that you can get more rocktails per hour fishing than dragon claws per hour killing TDs, and then concluding that fishing for cash is at least as good as TDs based on that, completely ignoring the prices of the items.

 

Divine's advantage is not its superior healing per slot- that's a really small part of it. If your math takes only that into account, you've entirely missed the point.

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This math is completely invalid because, as has been mentioned, being able to brew later is a gigantic, difficult to quantify advantage. The guaranteed damage reduction means that you are safe letting yourself drop to a lower hp and be safe from KOs, meaning you have more time at 125 stats to try to finish the boss and/or soul split flash your hp back up. This can often mean not taking a brew in a kill you otherwise would have had to, and brew taking leads to more brew taking. If Graar is at 1/4 hp and you have to brew, you're probably going to spend long enough getting your stats back to 125 and being able to hit him well that you're going to have to brew again, so anything that makes having to brew at that point less likely is a humongous advantage both in terms of time and supplies.

 

Before overloads, ely was actually a decent option for PvM, and I'd have agreed the difference was somewhat small. Now that this mechanic of harming your damage output by healing exists, though, there's no comparison. Divine is leagues better than ely.

math is invalid because it doesn't account for all the details?

math never accounts for all the details.

People use it anyways though.

Because it's useful even if it doesn't account for all the details.

 

stop trolling, you have no idea what you're talking about.

It's invalid because it doesn't even scratch the surface of what the advantage of a divine is. It's like doing math proving that you can get more rocktails per hour fishing than dragon claws per hour killing TDs, and then concluding that fishing for cash is at least as good as TDs based on that, completely ignoring the prices of the items.

 

Divine's advantage is not its superior healing per slot- that's a really small part of it. If your math takes only that into account, you've entirely missed the point.

Your rocktail-dclaw analogy is out of the ball park.

 

Look, math can rarely provide a perfect model.

Assumptions were listed with the calculation.

 

so you can do one of the following:

a) improve on the calculations

b) use the model in a way that compensates for its weaknesses and assumptions

c) interpret the results in a way that give intuitive value.

 

You've accomplished none of the above.

So the bottom line is nothing you said thus far is constructive.

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This math is completely invalid because, as has been mentioned, being able to brew later is a gigantic, difficult to quantify advantage. The guaranteed damage reduction means that you are safe letting yourself drop to a lower hp and be safe from KOs, meaning you have more time at 125 stats to try to finish the boss and/or soul split flash your hp back up. This can often mean not taking a brew in a kill you otherwise would have had to, and brew taking leads to more brew taking. If Graar is at 1/4 hp and you have to brew, you're probably going to spend long enough getting your stats back to 125 and being able to hit him well that you're going to have to brew again, so anything that makes having to brew at that point less likely is a humongous advantage both in terms of time and supplies.

 

Before overloads, ely was actually a decent option for PvM, and I'd have agreed the difference was somewhat small. Now that this mechanic of harming your damage output by healing exists, though, there's no comparison. Divine is leagues better than ely.

 

Like I said, against a boss which deals moderate DPS (such as bandos or supreme) this is not that big of an issue. you should only be eating when your ovl 15-second boost is right about to hit, thereby completely negating the negative effects of the brew. Only when you need to brew more than two times per 15-second boost (such as at nex) does the brew consideration really come into play.

 

Also drinking one dose of rest at a time won't delay your hits at all so you wouldn't need to panic rest/ppot

Assuming you're good at potting, this is true. Div makes you more susceptible to panic potting is all. Under ideal circumstances this panic pot argument is less relevant

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This math is completely invalid because, as has been mentioned, being able to brew later is a gigantic, difficult to quantify advantage. The guaranteed damage reduction means that you are safe letting yourself drop to a lower hp and be safe from KOs, meaning you have more time at 125 stats to try to finish the boss and/or soul split flash your hp back up. This can often mean not taking a brew in a kill you otherwise would have had to, and brew taking leads to more brew taking. If Graar is at 1/4 hp and you have to brew, you're probably going to spend long enough getting your stats back to 125 and being able to hit him well that you're going to have to brew again, so anything that makes having to brew at that point less likely is a humongous advantage both in terms of time and supplies.

 

Before overloads, ely was actually a decent option for PvM, and I'd have agreed the difference was somewhat small. Now that this mechanic of harming your damage output by healing exists, though, there's no comparison. Divine is leagues better than ely.

math is invalid because it doesn't account for all the details?

math never accounts for all the details.

People use it anyways though.

Because it's useful even if it doesn't account for all the details.

 

stop trolling, you have no idea what you're talking about.

It's invalid because it doesn't even scratch the surface of what the advantage of a divine is. It's like doing math proving that you can get more rocktails per hour fishing than dragon claws per hour killing TDs, and then concluding that fishing for cash is at least as good as TDs based on that, completely ignoring the prices of the items.

 

Divine's advantage is not its superior healing per slot- that's a really small part of it. If your math takes only that into account, you've entirely missed the point.

Your rocktail-dclaw analogy is out of the ball park.

 

Look, math can rarely provide a perfect model.

Assumptions were listed with the calculation.

 

so you can do one of the following:

a) improve on the calculations

b) use the model in a way that compensates for its weaknesses and assumptions

c) interpret the results in a way that give intuitive value.

 

You've accomplished none of the above.

So the bottom line is nothing you said thus far is constructive.

You mean I'm not allowed to point out that the math is about nothing related to the conclusion unless I know how to make a better model (which I have no idea how to do)?

 

Cool. This math is still useless regardless of your rules, though.

 

Edit at the above: In practice that's pretty difficult to do, especially since you're most likely going to be letting yourself get down very near KO range and then quickly brewing back up if you hit it. I'm not saying a good player can't do it sometimes, but it's unreasonable to expect that to happen all the time. Divine also gives you a much, much larger buffer for both what constitutes kill range and how long it takes for you to get from max health into kill range. Once you finish the kill, you've earned free full hp from ssing minions, so the consideration isn't damage healed per inventory slot, it's number of kills you can make it through without eating so you can get that free full hp off the minions.

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Regardless, it's not as if divine completely reduces brew's negative attack bonus. At the end of the day, you will still have to brew regardless of whether you use ely or div; div will just make you brew less often. We're talking about, on average, a difference of 15/2=7 seconds (so about 2 hits) where your stats will be ~115 versus ~125, on maybe like 1/3 to 1/2 of your kills depending on how good you are at timing, and that div will make you brew on average one time less than ely. So if you account for good overload-boost timing, the difference you're talking about is really quite small. And no - if you're assuming a competent monster hunter, I think good 15-second overload timing is not hard. Just run a clock on the side of your RS window and have a good memory.

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I know the thread he was talking about. It was called Shield Analysis. By the poster Warlock. It was posted within the week after the Dungeoneering update. It is not on the RSOF anymore, but the difference between the shields was a bit greater then what you have come up with iirc.

 

I think this is the thread you're referring to, the Chaotic/Eagle-eye/Farseer analysis are effectively obsolete as Jagex confirmed that they work in a different way than originally thought, but the Divine/Elysian analysis should still be applicable, assuming you don't factor in life-point boosting armour.

 

I've seen multiple topics recently about the new shields, and whether they will revolutionise combat or not. Most of the topics have been mainly based on opinion, in this topic I will be using solely facts provided by Jagex and from testing by myself and other players to try and prove what effects the new shields may have on combat, and whether they are worth using anywhere.

 

I'll start with a few basic facts that can easily be found in the Knowledge Base. It is worth noting that the description of the Divine is from pre-constitution, so technically the description should be 1.5% of the total damage, not 15%.

 

-----

 

Divine spirit shield:

30% - or as much as if possible if 30% is more than your current amount of Prayer points - of any damage you take is removed. Half of this 30% is deducted from your Prayer instead, while the other half is ignored completely.

 

Stats:

+ 0 + 0 + 0 + 0 + 0 | + 63 + 65 + 75 + 2 + 57 + 65 | + 0 + 3

 

-----

 

Elysian spirit shield:

70% chance of reducing the damage you receive by 25%.

(Effectively a 17.5% reduction)

 

Stats:

+ 0 + 0 + 0 + 0 + 0 | + 63 + 65 + 75 + 2 + 57 + 65 | + 0 + 3

 

-----

 

Chaotic:

The chaotic shield soaks up to 10% of all received melee damage and up to 20% of all received ranged damage. Magic damage is not soaked up at all.

 

Stats:

+ 2 + 0 + 4 - 15 + 0 | + 83 + 90 + 86 - 5 + 89 + 0 | + 0 + 0

 

-----

 

Farseer:

The farseer shield soaks up to 10% of all received magic damage and up to 20% of all received melee damage. Ranged damage is not soaked up at all.

 

Stats:

+ 0 + 0 + 0 + 17 - 15 | + 55 + 55 + 55 + 55 + 40 + 0 | + 0 + 0

 

-----

 

Eagle-Eye:

The eagle-eye shield soaks up to 10% of all received ranged damage and up to 20% of all received magic damage. Melee damage is not soaked up at all.

 

Stats:

- 5 - 5 - 5 + 0 + 4 | + 50 + 50 + 70 +25 + 50 + 0 | + 0 + 0

 

The effects for the Eagle-Eye, Farseer and Chaotic only activate if you would have taken 200 or more damage, had you not been wearing a damage reducing shield.

 

Elysian Vs. Divine

 

I know people have been over this many times, I just thought I should post a quick example at the beginning so that there aren't any arguments if I state that Divine is superior for certain types of combat without proof.

 

If we have Player A weilding a Divine and Player B weilding an Elysian, they have the exact same stats and gear and each have 28 inventory spaces.

 

Both Players get hit 1000 Damage in 10 shots (each shot hitting 100).

 

Player A is hit 700 10 times and loses 15 prayer points each time. After 10 shots Player A has taken 7000 damage and lost 150 prayer points.

 

Player B is hit 750 7 times and 1000 3 times. After 10 shots Player B has taken 8250 damage.

 

For Player A to replenish 7000 damage and 150 prayer points, he must drink 11 brews and one super prayer potion. This takes up 12 inventory spaces.

 

For Player B to replenish 8250 damage, he must drink 13 brews. This takes up 13 inventory spaces.

 

-----

 

Obviously this is ignoring partial doses, with the amount of potions needing to be drank rounded up, but the simple fact is the inventory space required to replenish the extra 150 prayer points that Player A uses, is less than the inventory space required to heal the extra 1250 damage that Player B would receive.

 

Therefore, for inventory heavy situations, the Divine spirit shield is more efficient than the Elysian. If you're in a situation where you need prayer and not food (Slayer, for example), you shouldn't be using either, as there are better alternatives.

 

Divine Vs. Chaotic

 

Assuming, hypothetically, Player C has a Chaotic shield and is fighting a boss that uses all 3 styles. If we assume both Player A and Player C are praying against Magic (giving Player C an advantage, as the Chaotic shield doesn't reduce Magic damage), Player C is still taking more damage than Player A.

 

Assuming said hypothetical monster hits 500 with all combat styles. If this monster were to hit 15 times, 5 with each combat style (remembering Player A is praying against Magic), he would take 3500 damage and lose 75 prayer points.

 

If the same monster were to attack Player C (who is also praying against Magic) 15 times, 5 with each combat style, he would take at least 4450 damage.

 

I say at least as the KB states that the Chaotic shield soaks "Up to" 10/20% of the damage, assuming it's 200 or above. This may only lower when the shield runs out of charges (much like Divine when you have 0 Prayer), although that it not yet known as, at the time of writing, no one has 80 Dungeoneering or a Chaotic Shield.

 

Either way, the extra 950+ damage that Player C took would take more inventory spaces to replenish than the 75 prayer points that Player A lost would. This isn't even taking into account when Player C is being hit by a style that his shield doesn't reduce, or if he is being hit under 200.

 

Elysian Vs. Chaotic

 

This part is quite interesting. The Divine is obviously the better choice, however, it is a lot harder to obtain, especially since the Elysian has recently been able to be bought at max on the GE (unsure if it still can be).

 

Using the same example I used when comparing the Divine to the Chaotic, (a monster that hit 500 and attacked with all styles in equal ratios, while both players are praying against Magic), it should be simple to see which shield is superior.

 

Before I get down to any calculations, I would like to make clear that in this post I am comparing the effects. The Chaotic has far better stats than the Elysian (as can be seen in the first post), and how important that is (relative to the effects), I don't know.

 

Player B (Elysian) would be hit a full 500 for 3 of the attacks, and 375 for the other 7, the equals a total of 4125 damage.

 

Player C (Chaotic) would be hit at least 400 for 5 of the attacks, and at least 450 for the other 5, totalling at least 4250 damage.

 

The results are very close, assuming that the Chaotic reduces the max amount every hit, however, this scenario is heavily weighted in Player C's favour. There are no hits under 200, and in most situations Player C wouldn't be able to pray against the style his shield doesn't reduce.

 

I've also ignored the cost of use for Player C (anywhere from 20k and an unspecified amount of tokens, to 200k per hour), as Jagex have stated they are re-evaluating the prices and may change them. Even at the current prices, however, it would take a long time to make up for the price difference of the Elysian.

 

Obviously the ratio of how effective Elysian is compared to Chaotic would differ at different bosses, but the Elysian still reduces more damage overall. However, if that is worth the extra price tag, is for you to decide.

 

If anyone is considering using either of these shields for combat where extra healing isn't needed, a Rune defender, Unholy book or Arcane would fare much better.

 

Chaotic, Farseer or Eagle-Eye?

 

In the posts above, I've been solely using the Chaotic as an example when comparing to the spirit shields. While ingame using a different shield may make a drastic difference, in the hypothetical examples I've used Player C has never been being damaged by a style that his shield doesn't reduce.

 

Ingame this often wouldn't happen, at Bandos for example. The Chaotic shield is by far the best of Dungeoneering shields there because of Graardor's ranged attack, however, you would be praying against Melee, so the 10% reduction to Melee attacks would be wasted (apart from after Graardor has died, when you're killing the minions).

 

In theory, the Eagle-Eye would be useful there, however, as it gives minus melee attack bonuses, it's desirability is somewhat lacking. The same can be said about the Farseer at Armadyl (with it's massive -15 Ranged attack).

 

Using a Farseer at Armadyl would be almost equivalent to using a Green dragonhide body instead of an Armadyl plate (Attack wise).

 

The Farseer may be useful at Rex if you can't afford an Arcane, however, if you can, there's no reason to use it. You don't take enough damage to warrant the damage reducing abilities, and recharging would cut into your profit a lot. 200k an hour isn't a lot, but there's no point in wasting extra money when it's not needed. The extra +17 Magic attack probably won't make up for the money you spend recharging it.

 

Overall, I can see these shields being very useful for players who can't afford spirit shields, but for those who can, the spirit shields will win almost every time.

 

Of course, this isn't taking into account the stats of the shields. I don't know how much of a difference they will make, but I doubt even the Chaotic would win against an Divine. An Elysian may lose to a Chaotic in a Melee DM (or if the Elysian user is ranging), but you'd probably use more food with a Chaotic at any boss that uses multiple styles.

 

PvP

 

I assume the main reason people want any of the five shields I've listed on the first page is for either bosses or PvP.

 

PvP is subject to rapid changes throughout a fight, and is more about managing to take as little damage as possible while dealing out as much as possible than about maximising inventory space. PvP also involves a lot more risk than most current bosses, and there are many challenges you'll face in PvP that you'll never face in a PvM situation.

 

At the time of writing, the value of the Dungeoneering shields on death are unknown. I assume they protect over most items because of the large amount of coins you have to pay to recharge them, however, that is just an assumption. Depending on what they protect over (and, to an extent, the outcome of Jagex's re-evaluation of the Dungeoneering rewards), they might become a lot more popular in PvP.

 

Until that time, I don't have much to add to this section. These shields won't revolutionise PvP, although the Chaotic, or even the Farseer would be a very helpful item to have if your opponent has a Chaotic rapier or longsword.

 

I can see the Farseer being a favourite shield for many PvPers who currently use a Blessed spirit shield or an Arcane. While they have no negative Ranged attack and the Arcane has a slightly higher Magic bonus, the 20% reduction would be amazing combined with a SoL special attack and I can see the 10% Magic reduction being useful when trying to escape an enemy.

 

The +5 Magic defence is also better than both the Arcane and the Blessed spirit shield, although being hardly enough to be worth mentioning, it might save you in a desperate PvP situation.

 

The Eagle-Eye would also be extremely useful for Rangers, the 20% Magic reduction combined with the +25 Magic defence would probably make more effective than a Spectral, although once again, the cost of repairs might be a problem, however, the fewer deaths because of the damage reduction may make up for it.

 

Bosses

 

Bosses are often the reason most people would obtain any of these shields. Although they are amazing for PvP, they seem to be mainly used at bosses, as it tends to make more profit.

 

Obviously, if you have a Divine it would be the preferred option. An Elysian would be the second choice, although, depending on the boss, the Chaotic wouldn't much worse.

 

The Farseer and Eagle-Eye have, for the most part, slightly lower stats than the Elysian, but I can see the Eagle-Eye being very useful at Armadyl for those who can't afford an Elysian. With it's +25 Magic defence and 20% Magic reduction, the Eagle-Eye seems like it would let you last longer than a Spectral, although, the degrading might be the decider.

 

I don't know yet how fast the charge on the shields is used up when in almost constant combat (apart from in between spawns), but if it makes the shields degrade much faster than they already do (or they lose their stats like crystal items), it may not be worth getting one.

 

From the KB:

 

"Any damage soaked up by the shields will be noted in your chat window. 'Soaking' damage lessens the charge on a shield more quickly than usual."

 

However, Armadyl isn't the only use for the Eagle-Eye, it would be brilliant for tanking at Zamorak, even meleeing, the shield only reduces melee attack bonuses by 5. It would probably still be more effective than a Spectral, and a Spectral costs more than 45 full recharges of the Eagle-Eye.

 

If the -5 attack bonuses make a large difference, the Farseer has no negative melee bonuses, although it does only reduce Magic damage by 10%, and have considerably lower Magic defence.

 

Extra Information

 

In all my examples I've assumed that both players have exactly the same stats, if your stats differ to a friend you may get anomolous results when trying out any items, not just these shields.

 

Saradomin Brews heal 640 in 4 sips. Each sip heals 160 and boosts Defence by 21, assuming the drinker has 99 in both stats.

 

Super Prayer potions restore 41 prayer points per sip, replenishing 154 prayer points in 4 sips.

 

Anything on this thread may become incorrect without prior warning because of Jagex updates, or may already be incorrect because of human error. If you notice anything incorrect, please don't hesitate to post and tell me. :)

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