Analysis: Ely vs Div in a PvM Setting

[TheAncient]

If we have Player A weilding a Divine and Player B weilding an Elysian, they have the exact same stats and gear and each have 28 inventory spaces.

 

Both Players get hit 1000 Damage in 10 shots (each shot hitting 100).

 

Player A is hit 700 10 times and loses 15 prayer points each time. After 10 shots Player A has taken 7000 damage and lost 150 prayer points.

 

Player B is hit 750 7 times and 1000 3 times. After 10 shots Player B has taken 8250 damage.

 

For Player A to replenish 7000 damage and 150 prayer points, he must drink 11 brews and one super prayer potion. This takes up 12 inventory spaces.

 

For Player B to replenish 8250 damage, he must drink 13 brews. This takes up 13 inventory spaces.

 

The conclusion is more or less the same as mine (on the order of ~2 brew difference assuming 35 brews)

[Articultural]

I was referring to Shane/Oh Zero One's thread. It got deleted months ago.

 

His thread dying was actually part of the reason I wrote the Shield Analysis thread. :P

[PereGrin]

I was referring to Shane/Oh Zero One's thread. It got deleted months ago.

 

His thread dying was actually part of the reason I wrote the Shield Analysis thread. :P

You are Warlock? Nice to meet you. :)

[Squisher_33]

pernix greatly favors elysian

 

if 1 ppot = 1030 dmg saved, and a brew is only 672 hp, divine is heavily favored

 

but now if a ppot = 1030 dmg saved, and with pernix a brew = 912 hp, then that leans toward ely more

[Grimy_Bunyip]

You mean I'm not allowed to point out that the math is about nothing related to the conclusion unless I know how to make a better model (which I have no idea how to do)?

 

Cool. This math is still useless regardless of your rules, though.

 

Edit at the above: In practice that's pretty difficult to do, especially since you're most likely going to be letting yourself get down very near KO range and then quickly brewing back up if you hit it. I'm not saying a good player can't do it sometimes, but it's unreasonable to expect that to happen all the time. Divine also gives you a much, much larger buffer for both what constitutes kill range and how long it takes for you to get from max health into kill range. Once you finish the kill, you've earned free full hp from ssing minions, so the consideration isn't damage healed per inventory slot, it's number of kills you can make it through without eating so you can get that free full hp off the minions.

the calculations were meant to give an idea of how rounding error affects divine.

 

Ultimately the amount of LP saved and extra prayer expended for divine and elysian is the primary factor.

It's just silly of you to propose all these extreneous factors and claim that they somehow disprove other calculations.

 

My point remains the same either way.

You have yet to contribute anything nontrivial to this thread green.

 

Anybody can point out obvious details. If I wanted someone to do that for me I'd go ask a 6 year old.

 

If you can't provide data, non-trivial calculations, etc.

You know, anything that is in low supply.

You're just being a waste.

[Articultural]

I was referring to Shane/Oh Zero One's thread. It got deleted months ago.

 

His thread dying was actually part of the reason I wrote the Shield Analysis thread. :P

You are Warlock? Nice to meet you. :)

 

Nice to meet you too. :) It's nice to know someone actually read my thread. :P

[green9090]

You mean I'm not allowed to point out that the math is about nothing related to the conclusion unless I know how to make a better model (which I have no idea how to do)?

 

Cool. This math is still useless regardless of your rules, though.

 

Edit at the above: In practice that's pretty difficult to do, especially since you're most likely going to be letting yourself get down very near KO range and then quickly brewing back up if you hit it. I'm not saying a good player can't do it sometimes, but it's unreasonable to expect that to happen all the time. Divine also gives you a much, much larger buffer for both what constitutes kill range and how long it takes for you to get from max health into kill range. Once you finish the kill, you've earned free full hp from ssing minions, so the consideration isn't damage healed per inventory slot, it's number of kills you can make it through without eating so you can get that free full hp off the minions.

the calculations were meant to give an idea of how rounding error affects divine.

 

Ultimately the amount of LP saved and extra prayer expended for divine and elysian is the primary factor.

It's just silly of you to propose all these extreneous factors and claim that they somehow disprove other calculations.

 

My point remains the same either way.

You have yet to contribute anything nontrivial to this thread green.

 

Anybody can point out obvious details. If I wanted someone to do that for me I'd go ask a 6 year old.

 

If you can't provide data, non-trivial calculations, etc.

You know, anything that is in low supply.

You're just being a waste.

OP demonstrates that the gap between divine and elysian in healing/inventory slot is narrow, and concludes just based on that that ely is almost as good as divine. I point out that he missed all of the factors that make divine really good, and his conclusion is incorrect. I fail to see how this doesn't contribute- I'm telling people to think deeper about this before they run out and buy an ely because hey some guy on TIF says it's almost as good as a divine for 1/3 the price!

[Myweponsg00d]

Something I have a question about: does the ely special activate on zero hits? Or do you have to take damage for it to roll the dice?

 

If it has a chance of activating on all hits, ely has another bad factor working for it: GWD generals and DK spins.

 

Suppose you are soloing GWD. This means at all times during a boss, you will have 3 generals on you and 1 boss. You will be deflecting one style so really 2 generals and one boss. Since there are more generals than bosses, this means that an attack from a general is more likely to be "absorbed" than an attack from the boss. Therefore you are less likely to absorb higher hits and the average damage reduction is actually less than 17.5%...Also, since you are praying one style, this means that you are actually recieving even less attacks from the boss. Let's say that maybe the boss gets a hit on you once for every 4 minion attacks. If the max boss hit is in the 300s and generals only 200s then this will significantly lower the average percent absorption of the shield.

[D Jay99]

Wait what? That shouldnt make a difference, ely activates for 70% of hits regardless of how much or by what you actually get hit. Avg damage reduction will be 17.5%/monster. I see where youre coming from tho, but the end result should still be 17.5% reduced in total

[xSxqPowerx]

Wait what? (2)

 

Each hit on you will have the same chance of activating. Regardless of how many low damage attacks you're taking, any attacks by the boss will still have the same chance of being reduced.

[Zygimantas]

Better question is... Arcane or Spectral?

[Estoc]

Better question is... Arcane or Spectral?

 

Isn't maging generally futile in most Pvm situations? Why would you need an arcane in any of those, unless I misunderstood the question.

[Zygimantas]

Better question is... Arcane or Spectral?

 

Isn't maging generally futile in most Pvm situations? Why would you need an arcane in any of those, unless I misunderstood the question.

I agree, thanks for the answer :thumbsup:

[TheAncient]

OP demonstrates that the gap between divine and elysian in healing/inventory slot is narrow, and concludes just based on that that ely is almost as good as divine. I point out that he missed all of the factors that make divine really good, and his conclusion is incorrect. I fail to see how this doesn't contribute- I'm telling people to think deeper about this before they run out and buy an ely because hey some guy on TIF says it's almost as good as a divine for 1/3 the price!

 

Your argument, which I have already addressed, is really only relevant for Bandos - and it isn't even that relevant if you're good at timing brews to your overload boost.

 

And no, I did not miss the factors that make divine superior. If you read carefully I mention a lot of reasons why divine would be better than elysian. Don't exaggerate these abilities; in the big scale of things the math shows that in at least 2 (DKs, Nex) of the 3 most important shield scenarios, elysian is a strong competitor to divine.

[Golvellius]

Funny thread.

Aren't you the one who said that maul was best at bandos?

Or were you the one who said rapier and dragon defender was best?

Now you wanna use a shield?

Bought a CLS and found out how good it is compared to rapier?

Anyhow, damage soak on armour takes alot of the sting out of stuff and is affordablely priced.

I think most runescapers would get more value out of a protectable piece of new armour than over 2008's RWT junk.

[TheAncient]

Funny thread.

Aren't you the one who said that maul was best at bandos?

Or were you the one who said rapier and dragon defender was best?

Now you wanna use a shield?

Bought a CLS and found out how good it is compared to rapier?

Anyhow, damage soak on armour takes alot of the sting out of stuff and is affordablely priced.

I think most runescapers would get more value out of a protectable piece of new armour than over 2008's RWT junk.

 

Maul is good if you can ss flash

CLS+ely/div is better than rapier+defender supposedly. i dont have one to test with

I have had a CLS for quite a long time and have consistently used rapier more

Damage soak barely does anything if you paid attention to my previous analysis; it is barely comparable to ely/div

[SirIzenhime]

Damage soak is just something that helps out a little....it shouldn't be at all compared to the spirit shields unless your taking hits of 600+ or more (is that about right?), and that's only to compare it with ely.

[Myweponsg00d]

Wait what? That shouldnt make a difference, ely activates for 70% of hits regardless of how much or by what you actually get hit. Avg damage reduction will be 17.5%/monster. I see where youre coming from tho, but the end result should still be 17.5% reduced in total

 

Wait what? (2)

 

Each hit on you will have the same chance of activating. Regardless of how many low damage attacks you're taking, any attacks by the boss will still have the same chance of being reduced.

 

Yes, you guys are right.

 

I mistakenly thought for some reason that reducing a lower number of high hits would cause the total damage reduced to be a lower number. I was confused because if you have a total of say 500 hits, composed of 400 high hits and 100 low hits, and you randomly reduce 70% of those hits, obviously less of the high hits will be reduced. So in my example, 70 of the high hits would be reduced and 280 of the low hits would be reduced. I thought that this would end up leading to a lower overall damage reduction, but what I failed to realize is that 70% of each type of hit should still end up being reduced, statistically speaking.

[stonewall337]

For team arma, I found ely better. For DKS divine one because of one simple thing: Certain healing reduced the frequency of brewing, which really lowers mage, requiring super rests, sometimes when p pots were wasted. But still, ely is quite good.

[green9090]

For team arma, I found ely better. For DKS divine one because of one simple thing: Certain healing reduced the frequency of brewing, which really lowers mage, requiring super rests, sometimes when p pots were wasted. But still, ely is quite good.

Yeah, for team Arma I'm pretty sure spectral (or maybe eagle eye for the ranged bonus) is supposed to be best, coming in slightly ahead of ely. In a 4+ team for Arma, though, I just bring void with deflector and arma plate because I get hit so ridiculously little. For DKs, seems like the frequency of food drops and the amount of soul split you can pull off, especially on rex, would make brewing too low to use magic pretty rare. I haven't done a lot of tribridding though so I don't really know.

[TheAncient]

For team arma, I found ely better. For DKS divine one because of one simple thing: Certain healing reduced the frequency of brewing, which really lowers mage, requiring super rests, sometimes when p pots were wasted. But still, ely is quite good.

 

You should brew only in the time between after you finish rex and in the first half of supreme. Do not brew after supreme has 1/2 hp; if you find yourself having to do this you should have brewed more during the first half of the kill. If you bring half super rests half regular ppots your mage level should never be an issue.

[SirIzenhime]

For team arma, I found ely better. For DKS divine one because of one simple thing: Certain healing reduced the frequency of brewing, which really lowers mage, requiring super rests, sometimes when p pots were wasted. But still, ely is quite good.

 

You should brew only in the time between after you finish rex and in the first half of supreme. Do not brew after supreme has 1/2 hp; if you find yourself having to do this you should have brewed more during the first half of the kill. If you bring half super rests half regular ppots your mage level should never be an issue.

 

So if supreme randomly hits 3 high 200s-low 300s on me in the last half (which has happened many times), I did something wrong?

But overall for DKs....SSing on supreme and rex is so easy...brews are rarely used.

[TheAncient]

Your range def is probably too low, you should have near max range soak and max range def. by the time you get to the second half you should have eaten so that you have, at the minimum, about 500-600 HP left; even if he hits you once (250~ max with soak) you still have 250-350 HP left which is fine.

 

Even if supreme does hit you 3 times, you should be fine if you drink a super restore a little bit before supreme dies (not afterward, cause thats too late). The time it takes to lure rex will be enough for your ovl boost to kick in.

[SirIzenhime]

Your range def is probably too low, you should have near max range soak and max range def. by the time you get to the second half you should have eaten so that you have, at the minimum, about 500-600 HP left; even if he hits you once (250~ max with soak) you still have 250-350 HP left which is fine.

 

Even if supreme does hit you 3 times, you should be fine if you drink a super restore a little bit before supreme dies (not afterward, cause thats too late). The time it takes to lure rex will be enough for your ovl boost to kick in.

 

I wear the normal On task setup.

Full bandos, obby shield.

I have enough range defense, it doesn't change the fact that sometimes...monsters and players alike...the "luck" factor in the combat system decides to own you.

 

If he hits me 3 times in a row, I have to down 3+ brews to stay out of instant death range. It has happened....I always have restores though, I've only had to wait to mage rex once, and that was my first serious attempt there :P

 

(why are we even talking about this, it has nothing to do with your Ely Vs. Div)