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If God created the world, where was he before creation? If you say he was transcendent then, and needed no support, where is he now?...If he is ever perfect and complete, how could the will to create have arisen in him? If,on the other hand, he is not perfect, he could no more create the universe then a potter could...If out of love for living things and need of them he made the world, why did he not make creation wholly blissful, free from misfortune?..Know that the world is uncreated, as time itself is, without begginning and end, as is based on principles, life and the rest. Uncreated and indestructible, it endures undeer the compulsion of its own nature.

 

 

Since you offered please answer the questions you can on my post on the bottom of page 7

I will answer, but you probably won't like my answer :wink:

God is. God is everywhere and nowhere, all at once. God was before the beginning of time, will be after the end of time. If our universe has n dimensions, God resides in the n+1, not bound by the laws that we know. God is unimaginable, and awesome. God is love. God loves so much that He created everything.

 

God loves us so much that He created us in His image, and He gave us free will. People ask the question can an infinite being create a rock that is too heavy to lift? The answer is yes, God created free will. God, in all his infinite might can't force me to chose Him, a paradox.

God created everything, formed us in His image, and put us in the Garden of Eden. Our free will was we could chose to live happily forever, and stay away from the two trees, or we could chose something other than God. Our own misfortune, death and suffering, was created solely because our entire race as humans is sinful. God did not create sin, we did from our own free will.

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The argument of faith is an invalid argument as it applies to you alone. You may have faith but then again, why not have faith that the Hindu gods exist? Or that there is a celestial teapot orbiting Jupiter whose alignment to the sun determines everyday life? Again, there is no reason to choose one god over another, other than "I have faith" which again is an invalid argument since there are so many gods to put your faith in, in the great lottery of religion.

I think it just depends on what you grow up with and learn about.

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God is. God is everywhere and nowhere, all at once. God was before the beginning of time, will be after the end of time. If our universe has n dimensions, God resides in the n+1, not bound by the laws that we know. God is unimaginable, and awesome. God is love. God loves so much that He created everything.

Beautiful words. That is all you need to know about god. Unimaginable, indescribable, and everywhere. Words can not describe it, and neither can the bible. I don't believe in a higher being. I believe in one "being".

99 Hunter - November 1st, 2008

99 Cooking -July 22nd, 2009

99 Firemaking - July 29th, 2010

99 Fletching - December 30th, 2010

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If God created the world, where was he before creation? If you say he was transcendent then, and needed no support, where is he now?...If he is ever perfect and complete, how could the will to create have arisen in him? If,on the other hand, he is not perfect, he could no more create the universe then a potter could...If out of love for living things and need of them he made the world, why did he not make creation wholly blissful, free from misfortune?..Know that the world is uncreated, as time itself is, without begginning and end, as is based on principles, life and the rest. Uncreated and indestructible, it endures undeer the compulsion of its own nature.

 

 

Since you offered please answer the questions you can on my post on the bottom of page 7

I will answer, but you probably won't like my answer :wink:

God is. God is everywhere and nowhere, all at once. God was before the beginning of time, will be after the end of time. If our universe has n dimensions, God resides in the n+1, not bound by the laws that we know. God is unimaginable, and awesome. God is love. God loves so much that He created everything.

 

God loves us so much that He created us in His image, and He gave us free will. People ask the question can an infinite being create a rock that is too heavy to lift? The answer is yes, God created free will. God, in all his infinite might can't force me to chose Him, a paradox.

God created everything, formed us in His image, and put us in the Garden of Eden. Our free will was we could chose to live happily forever, and stay away from the two trees, or we could chose something other than God. Our own misfortune, death and suffering, was created solely because our entire race as humans is sinful. God did not create sin, we did from our own free will.

 

Why does it have to be a diety? If you just replace the idea of "God" with the idea of "something outside of our universe that has always existed, exists in the n+1 dimension, is uncomprehensible" then you end up at the same place. Why should it be an intelligent beings with thoughts, will, and plans?

 

I understand that it makes you feel good, however we don't decide what reality is based on whether or not it makes people feel good. It might make someone feel good if they wear their "lucky coat" on a first date with a woman. Okay...thats fine. However, if we try to run tests on this coat and realize that its just any old coat, would you try to "deny" what science tells you and "have faith" that the coat is still lucky? I certainly hope not. I'm sure any reasonable adult would agree that a jacket is just a jacket, and does not actually cause good luck.

 

As a matter of fact, this analogy is quite good. Lets say you have a "good luck charm". Now, I'm sure if someone asked you "Do you REALLY think this brings you good luck? Would you say that this luck actually exists?" Most people would probably say no, that a material item does not actually bring more luck. However, we might just do it anyway. Why? Just because it makes us feel good to say that we have a "good luck charm". You don't need to firmly "have faith" that the charm will bring you luck in order for you to be comforted by having the object.

 

This is how I view religion's role in society. However, my only problem with it is that the "good luck charm" aspects of religion are often driven into young peoples' minds as being factual information. I would be totally content with a "religious" individual who says "Yes...I know theres no such thing as an afterlife. I know my father really won't live on forever. However, saying these words at his funeral are simply very comforting." Sort of the way that Einstein was "religious". It is common knowledge that Einsten was a "Jewish" man. However, did he really believe that an actual intelligent creator was responsible for the origins of the universe? No. He just turned to the parts of religion that help us to make sense of human morality and to be hopeful and thankful for the world around us.

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I don't think people would really be content to hold onto religion merely as some sort of "comfort blanket" if that's what you're suggesting.

 

Can you imagine true death? Not existing anymore in any way shape or form?

 

If so, does that scare you?

 

 

I mean even non practicing christians believe in heaven and hell for the most part, true death is too scary for people to imagine, in that sense it is a comfort blanket whether you think of that intentionally or it just acts as one for you

I certainly can imagine true death...it was difficult to imagine but once I started experiencing lucid dreams the idea of "halting" my existence became something I could understand.

 

Does it scare me? I suppose...but not any more than the idea of eternal life scares me (either in heaven or hell).

 

I believe in God because I believe God exists - not because he makes me feel better about myself.

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I don't think people would really be content to hold onto religion merely as some sort of "comfort blanket" if that's what you're suggesting.

 

Why not? I think that the idea could slowly be incorporated into society. We have plenty of things that we do for no reason that just make us feel good. Rituals, routines, good luck charms, things like saying "bless you" after you sneeze. Human ritual is a valuable and powerful part of our culture. Things like religion most certainly do have some things that are quite good...giving people some idea of moral standards, having post-death rituals to make the living relatives feel at ease.

 

When family members die, I like having the funeral. I know that their soul isnt actually floating around anywhere. I know they arent in a better place now. But the ritual helps me say goodbye to this person, among other important social functions.

 

Do you really think that if we tell people: "Hey...guess what, HELL ISNT REAL!" then all of a sudden the world would break out into chaos? I think it is a very good idea to just keep religion away from presenting "factual" information about the physical world. I totally think people would accept it.

 

I mean, Catholicism is kind of getting there...They have basically decided to start accepting scientific findings and AFAIK they fully accept Darwin's theory of evolution. To me, this is a huge step in the right direction towards letting religion function for what it actually does, and letting science function for what it actually does.

 

I don't think people would really be content to hold onto religion merely as some sort of "comfort blanket" if that's what you're suggesting.

 

Can you imagine true death? Not existing anymore in any way shape or form?

 

If so, does that scare you?

 

 

I mean even non practicing christians believe in heaven and hell for the most part, true death is too scary for people to imagine, in that sense it is a comfort blanket whether you think of that intentionally or it just acts as one for you

 

Seriously, this is one thing I have never understood. Why does death scare people? You're not gonna be around to know that you are dead...

 

 

 

 

 

In fact I think it would be scarier to think that my soul would live on eternally. What if I went up to heaven and had to deal with some of the people who annoy the hell out of me? trollface.jpeg

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You suffer from desires not sin, is a point I am making as well.

 

 

Interesting idea. I agree with most of it, but this caught my eye.

 

I believe as a Christian (and I assume that most christians also believe this) that desires, as a whole, have the possibility to be, in the end result, a sin. For example, a desire to eat, in its nature, is completely fine, but once that desire extends the point that it becomes all that we want (essentially an "idol") it is sinning (from this comes gluttony, etc.). Similarly, with sex, it is not sinful to want to have sex with a person, but for a person to go beyond their"Sexual" tie with their spouse is adultery, breaking the seventh (I believe) commandment that God has directed us to follow.

 

Now onto the idea of not being able to prove God's existence. This I have to admit is a difficult subject to explain to people who are not of christian/religious faith or background, but I will try my best.

 

Lets say that the world began from the big bang, or just nothing (I'm not quite sure what the current atheistic belief of the origin of the world is, but I will use this for examples sake). So the world is void and cosmos (may not be the correct terms, but whatever). Nothing exists. So from this nothingness, come an explosion or reaction happens, sending atoms, molecules, etc. flying through spacing creating particles and the very beginnings of what we call the universe. Over billions of years, these particles, through a gravitational pole, begin to attach and combine, creating planets, stars, galaxies, etc. Then over billions of more years, tiny microorganisms begin to form and evolve into other microorganisms and so on and so forth. After a couple more billion years, we find ourselves were we are now. Current day society and our beliefs, educations, philosophies, etc.

 

Now, many of you have also heard the argument that many Christians (and other religious people) make, that is "Well if all of this happened and there is no God, then there is no hope and we should have free reign to govern the world however and whatever way we like." I will say, that this is from different perspectives, correct. If there is, fundamentally, no God, then what is stopping us, as a society from tearing ourselves apart? Why, if there is no benefit beyond the time that we die, should we study education and such?

 

Now lets take a look at a world with a God. Our God has created a world, that perfectly suites our needs. It is just the right distance away from the sun that we won't freeze to death in most circumstances. It has just the right combination of gas's in the air to allow us to breathe, protect us from the majority of harmful sun rays, and the right amount of oxygen that we wont combust randomly (for the most part :cool: ). He then went on to create cycles that allow us to have fresh, salt, and other variations of water. He made plants in such a unique way that they take in the gas's that WE exhale and then produce oxygen which WE inhale.

 

On top of all of this, He created animals in such unique ways, that even over billions of years, I personally believe that even through evolution that our body could not have evolved to its "current state." For example, look at the eye. It can focus automatically on anything (with the exception of people with disabilities, etc.) instantaneously, and it can analyze and project 1.5 million different "messages" (or stimuli) simultaneously. Now, through evolution, if a species evolves into a given area, it will keep what ever is beneficial to itself and "shed" whatever is not beneficial. How could something so complex as the eye, go through multiple evolutions over billions of years and still exist? I, personally, have no idea.

 

I seem to be losing my train of thought. I apologize if I am offending anyone or incorrectly stating facts. Please feel free to post questions/answers about this.

 

EDIT: Recommendation: I have benefitted greatly from reading a book called The Reason for God (by Tim Keller). I would greatly suggest, both religious and atheistic people to read this book; it clarifies many different issues and topics that we are discussing within this post.

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If religion was just meant to be a comfort blanket, why would the religious invent the concept of hell? You might say hell for their enemies, and that's all fine and dandy, except not even the most devout Christians believe they are truly "safe" from hell.

 

Also, as far as "luck" goes, I don't believe in luck (in the traditional sense). I've had enough training in statistics to understand probability.

I don't believe objects can be "lucky" - a coat may look good or work for your image, or you may like the feel of it, the coat might affect your psychology and how you project yourself, but nothing in an object changes the inherent probability of an outcome.

 

You can test this. Wear your "lucky" coat, and flip a coin a million times. Luck would say that you'd flip heads some proportion more than tails. If you remove your coat, and do another million trials, luck would say the difference of those two proportions would be statistically significant.

 

This is also to say that the fact that we're here, everything just as it is, in perfect ratios for life, is incredibly "lucky," and I'd have trouble believing it was all random without an external influence.

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♪♪ Don't interrupt me as I struggle to complete this thought
Have some respect for someone more forgetful than yourself ♪♪

♪♪ And I'm not done
And I won't be till my head falls off ♪♪

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Though such a viewpoint assumes only the chain of events that lead us to be here was the only chain events that could have produced "anything out of nothing", as the phrase goes. Is it beyond the realm of probability that, had conditions been slightly different, things would still have been created out of chaos, just they'd be different things? The lottery tomorrow may read six specific numbers; it is simply not logical to think only this combination could ever have happened without taking into account the other billions of possibilities that could have occured.

 

I guess the answer would lie in the question: What made the chain of events that lead to us being on planet Earth in 2011 AD as human beings? For religion to sufficiently answer that question, they'd have to prove something made that chain of events predestined to have happened. As an atheist, I've seen no such evidence, therefore I have to assume it was completely arbitrary.

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If religion was just meant to be a comfort blanket, why would the religious invent the concept of hell? You might say hell for their enemies, and that's all fine and dandy, except not even the most devout Christians believe they are truly "safe" from hell.

 

The idea of hell is meant to provide the comfort that bad things will come to people who do bad things -- that all people will get what they deserve. If it weren't for this idea, the world would be a lot scarier. Every minute of the day, you could be walking down the street and think "Any one of these people could just kill me right now...and maybe nothing bad will ever come to him." I mean yes, he would get jail and/or death, but if someone killed one of my family members, no death penalty or ammount of jail time would make me feel like justice was served. The idea of hell (Hell?) gives people the comfort that people just avoid doing bad things for some reason that is more powerful than any type of material punishment.

 

Also, as far as "luck" goes, I don't believe in luck (in the traditional sense). I've had enough training in statistics to understand probability.

I don't believe objects can be "lucky" - a coat may look good or work for your image, or you may like the feel of it, the coat might affect your psychology and how you project yourself, but nothing in an object changes the inherent probability of an outcome.

 

You can test this. Wear your "lucky" coat, and flip a coin a million times. Luck would say that you'd flip heads some proportion more than tails. If you remove your coat, and do another million trials, luck would say the difference of those two proportions would be statistically significant.

 

This is also to say that the fact that we're here, everything just as it is, in perfect ratios for life, is incredibly "lucky," and I'd have trouble believing it was all random without an external influence.

 

Yes, we are in agreement then about this part: any person would be silly if he forced himself to ACTUALLY believe (as in, factual knowledge) that his coat was lucky. But even if you don't ACTUALLY believe that the coat is FACTUALLY lucky, it still can bring enjoyment in calling it your "lucky coat" right? I am suspecting that you would see no problem with this, but correct me if I am mistaken.

 

Well, this is the same way I feel about religion. There are plenty of things I like about religion, but there are also plenty of things I dislike. The most frustrating thing is that the things I dislike (the "factual" claims that some religions make) could easily be wiped away from religion, and we could just be left with the good things about religion. You don't need to believe that a coat is "factually" lucky to recieve the psychological benefits from calling it a "lucky coat". Similarly, you don't really need to believe that a diety "factually" exists in order to reap the emotional benefits of taking a relgion.

 

Hell, I would probably even take a religion if it didn't mean that people would probably make the false judgement that I factually believe in supernatural occurances.

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Some believe in God as a coping strategy in a high stress job (dealing with death as a doctor/nurse/surgeon), some believe in God because that's the way they are raised to think, and finally, some believe in God because they believe the Universe was created by a greater being.

I believe in nothing, but chance and fate. Or science.

 

I feel religion is an outdated, old fashioned way of explaining the Universe, luck and physics. Although hard to disprove the existence of God, it is yet even harder to prove he does exist.

 

Not sure where I'm going with this, as I'm going into a tangent. I'll leave this here

First of all, i believe that the bolded part carries a lot of truth. Infact i had a girlfriend once that was such a religious person. She would pray for everything and everyone to the point that it would become annoying. We would stop at a traffic light and she would strike up a lenghty conversation with the begger on the side of the road, thus holding up traffic once the light changes to green. She would talk to people about God when we went out, trying to convert them. Right there and then, no questions asked.

One day i asked her if she had always been such a religious person and what was the answer? No, something bad had happened in her past and God seemed to be the only person that could take the pain away. Now God seemed to be her everything. If something went wrong, she'd run to God. A being we cannon even see nor touch nor smell.

Basically what that story comes down to is that sometimes people need an idea of something BIGGER to make their life fell like its worth living. But they need to keep in mind that you NEED the people around you to comfort you or to help you. You cant just sit and pray all day and know "something will change because i am praying".

Sure, as i have said in many religious based threads before, i am a christian. Heck i'm not a great one but i believe that if there is a God, i am who he wants me to be. And that i who i want me to be.

 

Fair enough, you get these hectic relious people who try to force their way on you, but arent the non-religious the same? I belive, in a way, that religion does (or atleast did) bring some order to the world. Muslim countries are still amungst the safest in the wolrd thanks to their beliefs.

 

But at the end of the day it all boils down to this. If you believe in God, then good for you. Go out, spread the word. Lead the horse to the water, but heck don't force his head into the water. If you don't believe in religion, then thats good too. Tell people about the big bang, about science. But once again, dont force him to believe in it just because you don't. That is the exact reason why we have religious wars. Why be bothered what another man thinks? Are you honestly going to kill a man for buying a Dodge when you believe Ford is better? I highly doubt it.

 

And the following is why i believe that i might be a very "off the wall" christian.

Life has changed since the bible was written. Tech has changed. If there is a God, then he knows it has changed too. If you lived a good life, honoured your parents and showed love to those around you then without knowing it you have served God even if you deny it/God. Personally i don't live my life for heaven, hell or God. I live it for me. I follow religious vallues because i believe they bring a certain goodnes to the community.

 

Sorry for the very confusing post. I kind of just kept adding things as i thought if them. Hope you get the idea though.

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The idea of hell is meant to provide the comfort that bad things will come to people who do bad things -- that all people will get what they deserve.

From what I've learned as a Catholic, I disagree. It is impossible to know a person's heart when they die, it is impossible to know if even Judas Iscariot, the person that sold out Jesus Christ (or insert awful person here), is in hell or not.

Also, if Catholics believed that all people will get what they deserve, then all people would go to hell because all people are sinners.

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Have some respect for someone more forgetful than yourself ♪♪

♪♪ And I'm not done
And I won't be till my head falls off ♪♪

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Personally, I'm neither a theist, nor religious. :-?

 

Despite the fact I don't tend to agree with him politically, Bakunin sums up my feelings most eloquently - "The idea of God implies the abdication of human reason and justice; it is the most decisive negation of human liberty, and necessarily ends in the enslavement of mankind, in theory and practice."

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The argument of faith is an invalid argument as it applies to you alone. You may have faith but then again, why not have faith that the Hindu gods exist? Or that there is a celestial teapot orbiting Jupiter whose alignment to the sun determines everyday life? Again, there is no reason to choose one god over another, other than "I have faith" which again is an invalid argument since there are so many gods to put your faith in, in the great lottery of religion.

 

Since people keep complaining that I won't read sees_all1's link, here we go;

 

1254 For all the baptized, children or adults, faith must grow after Baptism. For this reason the Church celebrates each year at the Easter Vigil the renewal of baptismal promises. Preparation for Baptism leads only to the threshold of new life. Baptism is the source of that new life in Christ from which the entire Christian life springs forth.

 

1275 Christian initiation is accomplished by three sacraments together: Baptism which is the beginning of new life; Confirmation which is its strengthening; and the Eucharist which nourishes the disciple with Christ's Body and Blood for his transformation in Christ.

 

1281 Those who die for the faith, those who are catechumens, and all those who, without knowing of the Church but acting under the inspiration of grace, seek God sincerely and strive to fulfill his will, can be saved even if they have not been baptized (cf. LG 16).

"acting under the inspiration of grace" this is assuming the Christian god exists, of course.

 

1284 In case of necessity, any person can baptize provided that he have the intention of doing that which the Church does and provided that he pours water on the candidate's head while saying: "I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit."

 

Again, this is all irrelevant in giving a reason to believe in a god. The above, taken from what I can see is one of the Vatican's websites, contradicts itself. But even then, it is irrelevant to this argument. A church's doctrines have nothing to do with the existence of a god; they merely create laws on the assumption that one exists, for which the matter is what we are discussing, NOT the doctrines of a particular church.

 

EDIT: I'm going to the city now, so since I won't be able to make another reply for at least a few hours (unless I decide to hop on via my phone) I'll leave y'all with an example:

 

If I told you I could fly, would you believe me? No? Why not?

I've given you a first-hand account that I can fly, which is more evidence than anyone can give for the miracles of Christ.

You would tell me to prove that I can fly. This is merely what I am asking of you; to prove that there is a god. After all, theists make the claim that there is a god. Atheists make no claim. (Atheism: a lack of belief in gods, NOT a "belief that there are no gods")

The onus is on you.

Please don't bring up the faith argument. Why not just have faith that I can fly?

 

 

It wasn't part of my argument. To truly believe you need to have faith. I thought I was phrasing more as it was the flaw of the entire system. I find it charming.

 

It's about finding what's right for you. Look at things without the critical eye. Looking for flaws doesn't help you find answers.

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Looking for flaws doesn't help you find answers.

That's true, but it does help identify what ISN'T the right answer.

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Looking for flaws doesn't help you find answers.

That's true, but it does help identify what ISN'T the right answer.

So if I were to point out some of the many flaws with atheism you'd agree that it too isn't the right answer?

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Looking for flaws doesn't help you find answers.

That's true, but it does help identify what ISN'T the right answer.

So if I were to point out some of the many flaws with atheism you'd agree that it too isn't the right answer?

But could you?

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Looking for flaws doesn't help you find answers.

That's true, but it does help identify what ISN'T the right answer.

So if I were to point out some of the many flaws with atheism you'd agree that it too isn't the right answer?

But could you?

Are you actually attempting to claim atheism is a perfect belief system?

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Looking for flaws doesn't help you find answers.

That's true, but it does help identify what ISN'T the right answer.

So if I were to point out some of the many flaws with atheism you'd agree that it too isn't the right answer?

But could you?

Are you actually attempting to claim atheism is a perfect belief system?

:wall:

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Looking for flaws doesn't help you find answers.

That's true, but it does help identify what ISN'T the right answer.

So if I were to point out some of the many flaws with atheism you'd agree that it too isn't the right answer?

But could you?

Are you actually attempting to claim atheism is a perfect belief system?

:wall:

I'll take that as a concession, then?

 

If you'd like me to write an essay detailing the many flaws of atheism, I'll do it..but I'm simply offering you the opportunity to back down from that shockingly arrogant and narrow minded statement first.

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Despite the fact I don't tend to agree with him politically, Bakunin sums up my feelings most eloquently - "The idea of God implies the abdication of human reason and justice; it is the most decisive negation of human liberty, and necessarily ends in the enslavement of mankind, in theory and practice."

 

Although true, that's not a good basis for being an atheist because it comes down to simply believing things based on your emotion.

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Looking for flaws doesn't help you find answers.

That's true, but it does help identify what ISN'T the right answer.

So if I were to point out some of the many flaws with atheism you'd agree that it too isn't the right answer?

But could you?

Are you actually attempting to claim atheism is a perfect belief system?

:wall:

I'll take that as a concession, then?

 

If you'd like me to write an essay detailing the many flaws of atheism, I'll do it..but I'm simply offering you the opportunity to back down from that shockingly arrogant and narrow minded statement first.

Actually, I'd like to see this essay.

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Actually, I'd like to see this essay.

 

At very least, this tells me you've never bothered to attempt the obtaining of at least a relatively unbiased look at both sides, for if you had the flaws of atheism would be well apparent.

 

I'm sure you'll forgive me for not particularly wanting to write a book on the subject (which in reality is what's required to make a full examination of either angle of the subject) but I'll sum up a few inherent flaws with atheism.

 

Atheism vs. the church on sex.

 

Atheists like to use the thought of "unbridled sexual experience" as a draw towards losing the "shackles" imposed by the church (and religion as a whole). They like to paint a picture of a world where our sexual desires transcend all else and restrictions on such would be nonexistent. They say that the current attitude of the church is fruitless and old fashioned, and unnecessarily restrictive. They say "we should try the atheist way".

 

 

Mary Eberstadt says it better than I ever could.

 

And this brings us to why Athiests run the risk of losing among this younger generation when You talk about sex the way new Atheists all have so far: because everybody on the godless team writes about sex and freedom from the religious moral rules as if all the years from 1960 on never even existed. As if the sexual revolution hadn't been staggering along for nearly a half century now! Hello? Well, for better or worse from the point of view of our side, it has. And what that means is that all kinds of people now know that if we try to make a selling point out of trashing Christian sexual morality - as Atheists have been doing since the beginning - a whole lot of Dulls(sic: christians) today are going to raise their hands and call us losers on the subject of sex and say that we don't know what you're talking about. So it this letter i'd like to draw your attention to just some of the legacy of the Sexual revolution, in the hopes of making our movement less vulnerable to the unfortunate facts.

....

And if the campuses don't do it for you, take a look at what secular sex is doing in post-Christan western Europe! Pornography is everywhere, over-the-counter medicines for STD's are front and center in every convenience store, red-light districts showcase poorer and younger people (mostly from the East) being paid for every possible combination of sex by richer and older people (mostly from the West), the age of consent keeps getting pushed lower - and marriage and children and families are disappearing

 

Well I'm in class and I've no desire or time to write further but if you're looking for any genuine arguments against atheism I'd look at the following books.

 

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1592767877/ref=s9_simh_gw_p14_d0_i3?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-2&pf_rd_r=0VP4J3G9PXAN2ABJGWX7&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=470938631&pf_rd_i=507846

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0801072603/ref=s9_simh_gw_p14_d0_i2?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-2&pf_rd_r=06J7V21WWNZD4S1PA1K1&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=470938631&pf_rd_i=507846

http://www.amazon.com/Loser-Letters-Mary-Eberstadt/dp/1586174312/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1295977865&sr=1-1

http://www.amazon.com/Rage-Against-God-Atheism-Faith/dp/0310320313/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1295977879&sr=1-1

 

And of course, this is interesting: http://pewforum.org/Belief-in-God/Can-Civilization-Survive-Without-God-.aspx

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"It's not a rest for me, it's a rest for the weights." - Dom Mazzetti

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