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Dungeoneering's Impact on the Community at Large


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per usual: fast dungeons and fun are not mutually exclusive! in fact, when everyone knows what theyre supposed to do, dungeons are a lot less frustrating and fun.

 

Per usual, not everyone has fun the same way. Just because a fast dungeon where everyone knows what they're supposed to do is fun for you doesn't mean it's fun for everyone else.

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^ the problem is, most people don't see that fast dungeons are fun because they haven't been in good ones. so i assume many immediately side with the "slow dungeons are fun" without realizing what they're missing.

 

so i am trying to highlight the appeal of fast dungeons - which, again, is underrepresented.

 

sure, you can dg whatever way you want - just don't ask me why i think you have bad taste. it's like saying fine cheese and mcdonalds cheese are both good because it's a matter of personal taste.

 

izenheim, i wasnt directing that toward you lol.

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per usual: fast dungeons and fun are not mutually exclusive! in fact, when everyone knows what theyre supposed to do, dungeons are a lot less frustrating and fun.

 

Agreed, and I've found its easier when everyone knows each other, and what they will each do, and we all work together much better that way (friends-only dungeons ftw).

 

So true, and the only way you'll find out is through trial and error after dunging with people, and if there's a conflict between dungeoneering preferences, simple (and effective) solution is to just get the dungeon over with and agree to never dung again with those people. I mean, sometimes the issue is not so much about knowing what to do, they just simply don't want to do that.

 

EDIT: nvm, The Ancient summed it up in the post above pretty well. I agree, its just personal preference, but you shouldn't bash either side until you've tried it and given it a fair shot. I've done that, and I've found I prefer a sort of middle road, although I always like to see what tricks and tactics I can use to speed up my dungeons without (in my highly subjective opinion) giving up any fun.

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and yeah, i highly encourage ppl to dg with DGS. even theyre not at the level of 3bo/dge in their prime, at the moment i'd say DGS is probably one of the best current dg clans (and the most welcoming one ever).

 

im sure if you dg'ed with us and talked over skype you'd see that the floors we do are actually a lot of fun. sure, sometimes we'll sound a little blunt when giving advice - because that's the best way to give advice - but overall i would say it's a fun experience.

 

the reason i say "slow dgs" are for people with bad taste is that all you're really doing with that extra time is skilling. which is very non-interactive - you don't have to click fast or think at all, just sit there and watch your character mine. why do you think people afk ivies? cause, other than the goal-achieving aspect, the vast majority of people find the actual action of skilling to be boring as hell.

 

on the other hand, "fast dgs" keep you active often WITHOUT stressing you out. you're always doing something, thinking, being interactive. the only person who should be stressed out is the keyer, so for those of you who like high-stress situations learn to key. otherwise, dging quickly is actually not very hard. MUCH slower paced than, say, starcraft or black ops.

 

again, i am not advocating that everyone MUST do fast dungeons. i'm delineating why i think the people who do fast dungeons have better taste.

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^ the problem is, most people don't see that fast dungeons are fun because they haven't been in good ones. so i assume many immediately side with the "slow dungeons are fun" without realizing what they're missing.

 

so i am trying to highlight the appeal of fast dungeons - which, again, is underrepresented.

 

sure, you can dg whatever way you want - just don't ask me why i think you have bad taste. it's like saying fine cheese and mcdonalds cheese are both good because it's a matter of personal taste.

 

izenheim, i wasnt directing that toward you lol.

 

You don't like what I do therefore you have bad taste.

 

This is why people complain about the efficiency crowd being elitists.

 

There are plenty of fun moments in Dungeoneering that don't have to do with experience or the rewards. Or even the dungeon going smoothly. Have you watched two team mates duel for 10+ minutes on a runecrafting puzzle? Or needed a Winter's Grip and grabbed a seed only to find that one of your team mates planted Cave Potatoes everywhere? Or maybe called out the Gravecreeper boss thrice, and have a team mate gear for Necrolord cause he thought you were talking about Gravecreeper trees, and some people were grabbing range gear so he figured the boss must be Necrolord?

 

I don't see how it's bad taste to not care as much about how fast I'm gaining XP, and be able to laugh at silly mistakes and incidents that occur in the dungeon.

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and yeah, i highly encourage ppl to dg with DGS. even theyre not at the level of 3bo/dge in their prime, at the moment i'd say DGS is probably one of the best current dg clans (and the most welcoming one ever).

 

im sure if you dg'ed with us and talked over skype you'd see that the floors we do are actually a lot of fun. sure, sometimes we'll sound a little blunt when giving advice - because that's the best way to give advice - but overall i would say it's a fun experience.

 

the reason i say "slow dgs" are for people with bad taste is that all you're really doing with that extra time is skilling. which is very non-interactive - you don't have to click fast or think at all, just sit there and watch your character mine. why do you think people afk ivies? cause, other than the goal-achieving aspect, the vast majority of people find the actual action of skilling to be boring as hell.

 

That's good news to hear, because although I know I'm far off of the standard for 3bo, I would still consider myself a somewhat decent keyer, and although you can watch videos, nothing compares to having a person in a dungeon, helping you, step by step through each situation, as I think dungeoneering is pretty situational. So I'll be sure to drop in DGS sometime soon (er, what's the cc name in-game?).

 

About Skype...I don't think I can use it atm, and most of my friends who I dungeoneer with don't use Skype either, so I'm just wondering how big of a difference there is between Skype vs typing in rs?

 

There are plenty of fun moments in Dungeoneering that don't have to do with experience or the rewards. Or even the dungeon going smoothly. Have you watched two team mates duel for 10+ minutes on a runecrafting puzzle? Or needed a Winter's Grip and grabbed a seed only to find that one of your team mates planted Cave Potatoes everywhere? Or maybe called out the Gravecreeper boss thrice, and have a team mate gear for Necrolord cause he thought you were talking about Gravecreeper trees, and some people were grabbing range gear so he figured the boss must be Necrolord?

 

I don't see how it's bad taste to not care as much about how fast I'm gaining XP, and be able to laugh at silly mistakes and incidents that occur in the dungeon.

 

If its just between friends or something, I'm more lenient and relaxed. Sure I'll take all these things and just roll with it and just have fun, but tbh, while I wouldn't get fussed up about this happening every once in a while, I'd get pretty annoyed if these sort of things happened every few dungeons. It just slows everyone down, and well...the joke's only fun until it goes on for too long (old joke is old). Most of the mistakes I get from my team are lag-outs/deaths in GD's, or mess-ups at the boss, and they aren't major so I really couldn't care much if it happened every few dungeons.

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but we do that, lol. join us for a dungeon and you'll see that on many occassions we do fool around. often you'll see Final in like full zeph just to be a troll and make fun of golvellius.

 

i'm fine with being called an elitist. i see nothing wrong with showing why certain ways of thinking are superior to others.

 

----

 

skype is pretty different, just as phone calls are different to texts in real life. voice to voice human interaction is nice.

 

as far as actual tutoring, not all DGS members will actually personally tutor you step-by-step. i think the general attitude is that we are there as resources and for people to learn by example. we are accepting of mistakes and if you have questions you are always free to ask, but since we want to do dungeons too it isn't necessarily our first priority to teach you. at least thats the way i viewed it.

 

of course, i am completely open to questions. if you have burning dg questions shoot me a pm and i'll be happy to respond.

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but we do that, lol. join us for a dungeon and you'll see that on many occassions we do fool around. often you'll see Final in like full zeph just to be a troll and make fun of golvellius.

 

i'm fine with being called an elitist. i see nothing wrong with showing why certain ways of thinking are superior to others.

 

So you're okay with fooling around, but you're not okay with people who enjoy fighting in Dungeoneering killing all the optional monsters? I'm getting rather mixed messages here.

 

By the way, in case the message was lost, I'm perfectly okay with people rushing and I do appreciate this clan/chat you're setting up. I just think it's silly to say "if you're not rushing and your team wants to rush you should rush since everyone is better off."

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but we do that, lol. join us for a dungeon and you'll see that on many occassions we do fool around. often you'll see Final in like full zeph just to be a troll and make fun of golvellius.

 

i'm fine with being called an elitist. i see nothing wrong with showing why certain ways of thinking are superior to others.

 

So you're okay with fooling around, but you're not okay with people who enjoy fighting in Dungeoneering killing all the optional monsters? I'm getting rather mixed messages here.

 

like i said, it comes down to a matter of taste and appreciation of what is entertaining. some things show good taste, some do not.

 

making fun of an idiot is entertaining.

killing things for basically no reason usually isn't. i don't see people killing cows for fun on a regular basis.

 

disclaimer: i often do attack the optional monsters. i like getting the berserker reward consistently. but i only do this when i am in transit (like getting one hit in and immediately running = doesn't waste time) or have absolutely nothing to do. in comparison, you'll have idiots with a hard GD to be done and you'll see them sitting killing a zombie in a DE. yell and them and they'll just say "look, i'm doing this for fun. get off my case". that's selfish and dumb.

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but we do that, lol. join us for a dungeon and you'll see that on many occassions we do fool around. often you'll see Final in like full zeph just to be a troll and make fun of golvellius.

 

i'm fine with being called an elitist. i see nothing wrong with showing why certain ways of thinking are superior to others.

 

So you're okay with fooling around, but you're not okay with people who enjoy fighting in Dungeoneering killing all the optional monsters? I'm getting rather mixed messages here.

My personal perspective is that I'm fine with fooling around with friends.

But if some random stranger joins my dungeon and decides to start fooling around, that's disrespectful.

He isn't exactly my buddy.

How would you feel if some drunk meandered into your house and started puking in the toilet.

 

I mean, if it was someone I know, sure, I'm cool with that.

Social circumstances change when you're with friends.

If I don't know you, I expect a greater degree of politeness and courtesy (not as much as in IRL as this is the internet)

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but we do that, lol. join us for a dungeon and you'll see that on many occassions we do fool around. often you'll see Final in like full zeph just to be a troll and make fun of golvellius.

 

i'm fine with being called an elitist. i see nothing wrong with showing why certain ways of thinking are superior to others.

 

----

 

skype is pretty different, just as phone calls are different to texts in real life. voice to voice human interaction is nice.

 

as far as actual tutoring, not all DGS members will actually personally tutor you step-by-step. i think the general attitude is that we are there as resources and for people to learn by example. we are accepting of mistakes and if you have questions you are always free to ask, but since we want to do dungeons too it isn't necessarily our first priority to teach you. at least thats the way i viewed it.

 

of course, i am completely open to questions. if you have burning dg questions shoot me a pm and i'll be happy to respond.

 

Oh I know GDS offers that, that's exactly why I'm interested :P And in all honesty, it's nice to have the atmosphere more relaxed than 3bo when you're learning.

 

And yeah lol, I've seen some of the pics from /obt/. Fun stuff, like full spiritbloom + staff + surgebox lol.

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but we do that, lol. join us for a dungeon and you'll see that on many occassions we do fool around. often you'll see Final in like full zeph just to be a troll and make fun of golvellius.

 

i'm fine with being called an elitist. i see nothing wrong with showing why certain ways of thinking are superior to others.

 

So you're okay with fooling around, but you're not okay with people who enjoy fighting in Dungeoneering killing all the optional monsters? I'm getting rather mixed messages here.

 

like i said, it comes down to a matter of taste and appreciation of what is entertaining. some things show good taste, some do not.

 

making fun of an idiot is entertaining.

killing things for basically no reason usually isn't. i don't see people killing cows for fun on a regular basis.

 

Not on a regular basis no, but I've seen a lot of high level players go back and kill something easy like the KQ or KBD, just so they can appreciate how far they've come since their first encounter with it. Dungeoneering gives me that feel - the same monster encounter feels entirely different when you're at the beginning of the dungeon with barely any food and no armor, versus when you're at the end of the dungeon with full gear. The difference is, you only get to 138 combat once. In Dungeoneering, you can do it every floor.

 

My personal perspective is that I'm fine with fooling around with friends.

But if some random stranger joins my dungeon and decides to start fooling around, that's disrespectful.

He isn't exactly my buddy.

How would you feel if some drunk meandered into your house and started puking in the toilet.

 

I mean, if it was someone I know, sure, I'm cool with that.

Social circumstances change when you're with friends.

 

Well I don't do public dungeons for exactly that reason so it all works out in my case. But still, the point stands - you shouldn't expect public players like those on w117 or w148 to be playing for the same reasons you do.

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I would argue that we are the goofiest, most ridiculously hilarious group of dungeoneers in existence. You haven't dungeoneered until you've seen Cheeesy key in full novite every single floor or Bro Pal get I Can Has Heim Crabs and Survivor at the same time while still Rambo-ing every room like normal. I guess we're just able to fool around without wasting any time.

 

And I have to second what Ancient said -- rushing floors is really only stressful for the keyer. All non-keyers will be spending most of their time killing stuff and running keys to their gates, which isn't exactly suicide-worthy.

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i've used this line of reasoning before:

 

-- gear is supposed to make you feel powerful, right? the main purpose of being fully geared is to feel that you are fully prepared for whatever the dungeon throws at you.

-- producing gear actually makes you LESS prepared. unless you as an entire team decide to stop, all mine ores at one time, and smith together, producing gear makes your team slow, disorganized, and the dungeon more dangerous for everyone. in the time that you've spent making the armor, you've basically made all of your teammates incur a cost that is higher than the utility of the armor.

-- therefore, to gear up to get the feeling of "being fully prepared" is counterproductive and counterintuitive.

 

of course, you CAN collectively make armor just out of the pure enjoyment of making armor. but again, i just don't think that's fun. you don't see people randomly making armor in the overworld.

 

soma - how often do you see these people go back and kill KQ? it happens, but not regularly. it's fine to have a completely fool-around dungeon once in a while, but if you're doing a few dungeons a day it gets old quickly. it's unsustainable as a long-term dungeoneering strategy.

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Well I don't do public dungeons for exactly that reason so it all works out in my case. But still, the point stands - you shouldn't expect public players like those on w117 or w148 to be playing for the same reasons you do.

I NEED to do public dungeons for floors like 57 though.

Because not everybody in my perm team has that high a DG level.

Nobody in DGS really does.

that only leaves 3BO, and their team quality is subpar these days.

 

I would argue that we are the goofiest, most ridiculously hilarious group of dungeoneers in existence. You haven't dungeoneered until you've seen Cheeesy key in full novite every single floor or Bro Pal get I Can Has Heim Crabs and Survivor at the same time while still Rambo-ing every room like normal. I guess we're just able to fool around without wasting any time.

 

And I have to second what Ancient said -- rushing floors is really only stressful for the keyer. All non-keyers will be spending most of their time killing stuff and running keys to their gates, which isn't exactly suicide-worthy.

The only thing stressful about keying is when people don't listen, or he has to shout overtop of an existing conversation to issue orders.

everything you just get used to and it feels comfortable after a while.

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i've used this line of reasoning before:

 

-- gear is supposed to make you feel powerful, right? the main purpose of being fully geared is to feel that you are fully prepared for whatever the dungeon throws at you.

-- producing gear actually makes you LESS prepared. unless you as an entire team decide to stop, all mine ores at one time, and smith together, producing gear makes your team slow, disorganized, and the dungeon more dangerous for everyone. in the time that you've spent making the armor, you've basically made all of your teammates incur a cost that is higher than the utility of the armor.

-- therefore, to gear up to get the feeling of "being fully prepared" is counterproductive and counterintuitive.

 

of course, you CAN collectively make armor just out of the pure enjoyment of making armor. but again, i just don't think that's fun. you don't see people randomly making armor in the overworld.

 

soma - how often do you see these people go back and kill KQ? it happens, but not regularly. it's fine to have a completely fool-around dungeon once in a while, but if you're doing a few dungeons a day it gets old quickly.

 

I think that's the big difference - I don't do several dungeons a day, because I'm not overly concerned with skill level or rewards. I figure I'll get them when I get them, and that's that. Things don't get old nearly as fast when you do maybe four or five dungeons a week...

 

In either case, you're still digressing from my point. >.>

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more realistically, even like 4-5 dungeons in an afternoon. final/rocked have done like... 15+ dungeons in a day; me, probably 10 or so has been my max.

 

part of it is the xp goal (120 dg) but i'd say the majority of it is enjoying fast dungeons and competing with yourself to see how much you can challenge yourself to be a better dps or keyer.

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more realistically, even like 4-5 dungeons in an afternoon. final/rocked have done like... 15+ dungeons in a day; me, probably 10 or so has been my max.

 

part of it is the xp goal (120 dg) but i'd say the majority of it is enjoying fast dungeons and competing with yourself to see how much you can challenge yourself to be a better dps or keyer.

 

And that's fine... but I just think it's kind of bizarre to hope for public DGers to have the same aims as you. Especially if you're clearly advertising as a rush team.

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more realistically, even like 4-5 dungeons in an afternoon. final/rocked have done like... 15+ dungeons in a day; me, probably 10 or so has been my max.

 

part of it is the xp goal (120 dg) but i'd say the majority of it is enjoying fast dungeons and competing with yourself to see how much you can challenge yourself to be a better dps or keyer.

 

And that's fine... but I just think it's kind of bizarre to hope for public DGers to have the same aims as you. Especially if you're clearly advertising as a rush team.

 

why? lol. for people who really enjoy dg and want to be serious about it, our attitude is much more relevant than someone who does like one dungeon a week.

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In either case, you're still digressing from my point. >.>

Your point was the following right?

"you can't expect w148 and w117ers to play for the same reasons we do" is very obvious.

I can figure that out by consulting my conscience for like 2 seconds.

 

It seems you want to tell us to "be less mean to W148 and W117ers".

Which, while it is a perfectly logical point.

It has no tangible value in terms of actual application.

Your point has no point so to speak.

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more realistically, even like 4-5 dungeons in an afternoon. final/rocked have done like... 15+ dungeons in a day; me, probably 10 or so has been my max.

 

part of it is the xp goal (120 dg) but i'd say the majority of it is enjoying fast dungeons and competing with yourself to see how much you can challenge yourself to be a better dps or keyer.

 

And that's fine... but I just think it's kind of bizarre to hope for public DGers to have the same aims as you. Especially if you're clearly advertising as a rush team.

 

why? lol. for people who really enjoy dg and want to be serious about it, our attitude is much more relevant than someone who does like one dungeon a week.

 

Because non-rushers often don't give a rat's ass what you think. When a non-rusher and a rusher wind up on the same team because it wasn't advertised clearly, a non-rusher does what he wants to do and gets the dungeoneering experience he's looking for. If he's there to gather resources and make crappy armor, he can do exactly what he went there for, even if it means putting up with whining from a rusher. On the other hand, the rusher doesn't have a choice - the dungeon is going to be slow.

 

The problem with having variety is that the rushers and non-rushers are forced to intermingle, so problems arise, expectedly. When the two groups mix (which they do every single day on 117, 148, and even 3BO), the non-rushers essentially force the rushers to spend extra time that they might not have. It's actually very selfish of them, inherently. In a perfect world, the two groups would be segregated, but this isn't the case, so it makes more sense for non-rushers to just get with the program and rush for the greater good.

 

In a nutshell:

1) When non-rushers slow rushers down, one party gets hurt.

2) When non-rushers suck it up and rush with rushers, both parties benefit.

 

It's a pretty simple decision, really.

 

The non-rushers have no reason to suck it up and rush with you, because they aren't necessarily benefiting. In fact, they can benefit by NOT sucking it up and rushing with you. That's why expecting them to rush is silly. If you want to rush, make sure that's clear before you start, or make/join a team for fast dungeons like you guys have done. Expecting w117 or w148 to conform isn't going to work.

 

EDIT:

 

No, Grimy. I'm not saying to be less mean to 117ers or 148ers. I'm saying you should just abandon w117 and w148 altogether, just like fast SCers don't bother with the principle SC worlds.

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No, Grimy. I'm not saying to be less mean to 117ers or 148ers. I'm saying you should just abandon w117 and w148 altogether, just like fast SCers don't bother with the principle SC worlds.

Oh I abandoned those already.

3BO isn't that good right now.

and honestly it's not practical to have a perm team all be at the exact same dungeoneering level at all times.

You'll inevitably be forced to dg with people you don't know to finish resets.

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