Tip.It Times - 6th March 2011

[Sylpheed]

If an RWTer has to pay a room full of people what he used to be able to use a computer to do for him, that's a big step forward in making the game better. Your argument is, if it doesn't eliminate RWT, eliminating botting is pointless? Okay.

 

 

Bear with me here. I'm going somewhere with this.

 

Why do you want bots gone?

Off point. JAGEX wants bots gone, or so they say. My point is that they don't; not enough to put any effort into eliminating them. My point is that Jagex is saying whatever it takes to keep players happy while doing whatever they can to maximize profit in the short term.

 

Jagex doesn't want bots gone, and I'm presenting proof.

 

Guess you missed the part where i said 'i'm going somewhere with this.'. No matter I don't think i really believed you would do anything other than skim and deflect.

 

And isn't that they way company's work? Keep customers happy and make money? Why should Jagex be held to a standard greater than any others.

 

They have tried to remove bots, they have wasted a ton of money and time trying. They gave up and settled. They SHOULD have given up. They can't win and no matter how much you may think differently its true. Bot makers enjoy what they do and they WANT jagex to fight them. Your 'moving things around' idea will only motivate them and make them try even harder to beat it (Which they will). Then not only does Jagex still have a bot problem, they have to escalate it and do something even more drastic.

 

Why the [bleep] am I explaining this? IT HAPPENED ~3 YEARS AGO.

 

Are you the secret owner of a botting site? It's ok, you can tell me.

[Makoto_the_Phoenix]

This week's articles were both interesting and informative.

 

To the first article: Two things.

 

1) No, that probably won't be the last time you complain about RWT/bots/cheaters/other ilk. At least, in some other form or avenue. Not that it's a bad thing per se, but that it's the most common complaint that the players have now - cheaters.

 

2) Claiming that there's a problem is vastly easier than offering a fix to it. Consider that a problem can be identified or diagnosed in very basic terms, and that the solution is often *not* a simple one to implement, regardless of how much we delude ourselves in believing so.

 

I do agree with this premise though. If we do have an issue with bots, we should be prepared to offer solutions to them, with the basic idea in mind that we neither have the whole picture, nor will our problems be all-encompassing to deter/break bots and leave normal players alone.

 

I must respectfully disagree with the notion of putting cheaters onto their own server. In my mind, this draws too much attention to them, and wouldn't serve to deter anyone from botting - they'd just do it over there, instead. Instant gratification; giving the lazier players exactly what they want, now in a packaged, legal form. Big deal. Removing them permanently from the high scores, on the other hand, that may be better.

 

---

 

The second article I really did enjoy because it had sources (although #8 and #9 turned out to have expired RSOF links). Sources are important; we need them to prove that someone isn't just talking trash.

 

Now, we speak in double terms when we say that Jagex is "in it for the cash", since they are a business. The reason that we'd probably say this is that in the past, they did give out an outwardly PR image that that felt more like, "Profits be damned! We want the game to be good for our community!", but that PR message has been dampened - at least in the writer's mind - with some of the more recent happenings at Jagex, either internally with the company, with RuneScape, with FunOrb, and/or with Stellar Dawn.

 

In my mind, saying "they're in it for the cash" is a misnomer, and mostly unfair of a for-profit, multi-million dollar online MMO. They *have* to pay for their staff and equipment in one way or another. It's probably more appropriate to say, in one's own terms, that their corporate focus - or corporate culture - has changed.

 

---

 

For everyone still bickering about how to break bots: "Breaking" them won't work. That's been tried and it hasn't had much of an effect. Instead, think along the lines of content that isn't grindable, and is actually enjoyable for a sustained period of time. Removing/disabling resources won't really affect bots, but it'll certainly cause an uproar amongst legitimate players.

[Bladewing]

For everyone still bickering about how to break bots: "Breaking" them won't work. That's been tried and it hasn't had much of an effect.

when has it been tried?

[sees_all1]

For everyone still bickering about how to break bots: "Breaking" them won't work. That's been tried and it hasn't had much of an effect.

when has it been tried?

Pretty much every random event ever made.

[Bladewing]

For everyone still bickering about how to break bots: "Breaking" them won't work. That's been tried and it hasn't had much of an effect.

when has it been tried?

Pretty much every random event ever made.

those are automated breaks

 

green is suggesting manual breaks. every manual break - wildy wall, LRC portal, etc. - has been SUCCESSFUL at breaking bot's scripts

[Makoto_the_Phoenix]

For everyone still bickering about how to break bots: "Breaking" them won't work. That's been tried and it hasn't had much of an effect.

when has it been tried?

Pretty much every random event ever made.

those are automated breaks

 

green is suggesting manual breaks. every manual break - wildy wall, LRC portal, etc. - has been SUCCESSFUL at breaking bot's scripts

 

Let's not intertwine "successful" and "much of an effect", here. Something that's successful implies that not only will it work every time, but it can also be done in such a way that all bots, regardless of skill, can be disrupted in this manner. Something that's had a large impact, or in other words, something that's had an effect on botting implies that it's worked once in the past, but couldn't be seen as viable for the long term.

 

The "manual break" idea - while admirable in intent - would be severely limited to available staff, as well as appropriate support for *every* resource location in the game. Not sure how it'd work, but if it could, I'd like to see it more fleshed out before I treat it as the "silver bullet".

[lordkafei]

The goal is not (nor should it ever be) to eliminate 100% of the botting population. That is an impossible standard, and Jagex probably cant do a lot better than they are now.

 

The goal should instead be to penalize & stigmatize botting until it becomes disused. This is where many believe Jagex is dropping the ball.

 

Perception is everything, and Jagex needs to counter the impression that it has gone soft on botters.

 

We need to see the naming and shaming as was done in the true Golden Age. If nothing else, it will give the clean players some inkling that Jagex is at least doing something.

I like the idea of credit card bans. Sure, some people will still use other payment methods. But youve knocked some bad apples out and will put the fear of Guthix into the rest.

 

The stat rollbacks are giving the impression that the monthly membership fee is the most important thing to Jagex. This perception that they have put recurring memberships ahead of the good of the game is a poison that will kill RS.

[Neltak]

Both articles were a good read.

 

As for #1: The entire purpose of rwt and botting is to show off skills/items/gp. If they can't act superior to real players than they would have no reason to rwt/bot. At least thats how I view a botter's outlook towards Runescape. And that is why I can't see cheater worlds ever working.

 

 

As for #2: Of course they're about money, its just getting more apparent again. From the onset of bonus exp weekend #1 I was almost certain any following weekends would be members only as well. And they're trying their hardest to milk the "wildy's back" theme for all its worth, through items in the store and the wildywyrm "update".

 

What it comes down to for me right now is that Runescape is still a game I enjoy playing for what it is. Do I dislike certain aspects of it? Yes. But I can't name a single game I liked 100%. I only wish they didn't blatantly lie when they claimed they can counter bots. Its obvious they can't and I doubt they ever will be able to.

 

And I liked the use of references...until I saw Wiki links.

[Remorse]

The second article made me so sad. It's like doomsday approaching soon.

[zotto]

Regarding random events:

 

Most companies have moved their call centers to India because it is cheap. Why not let such a 'cheap' call center control the randoms.

 

There is a human behind each random. In India. A real person who will have an actual job.

 

For instance: identify this object. It already exist as a random, but why not put a human behind it who can change the picture at will, and when he suspects a bot continue to ask questions.

 

The picture could be changed on a daily basis, or even an hourly basis. And the community would actually have an increase in the feeling that they are playing a mmorpg.

 

I see 3 benefits:

1. you create jobs in places that can use jobs.

2. you make the random flexible and harder to beat.

3. you increase the mmorpg'ishness of the game.

[yuriqiu]

First article: Its been known for a long time that Jagex's original methods for creating skills were flawed. Obviously skills that were more efficiently trained by machines rather than humans would not appeal to a human audience. I see them fixing that now though with Dungeoneering. While your punishment seems creative, the biggest part against bots right now is that Jagex's bot detection system isn't just one step behind the bot creators. It's more around miles behind bot coders. I always wondered why can't a J mod take 15 minutes out of their day and visit for example w84 LRC themselves and see how many botters are truly there. A simple QC of what's your mining/fishing level would yield around 50 responses at the minimum. While this is only small fries compared to the true RWT/Botting community it would still show at least that Jagex is doing something proactive.

 

Second article: All I can say is I think I found a new favorite Tip it Times author. Glad to see the Times starting to return to publishing better articles as it used to a couple of years ago. Not just this week but for the past couple of weeks in fact. This one stands out in how well the author has done his research and analyzed the motives behind Jagex's moves carefully and to the point. Hope to see more articles like this in the future.

[Jonanananas]

Cool to know my article was liked :P

I'll adress a few things now.

 

 

second article- The cash could be being diverted to refilling their reserve money that was lost from mechscape. Jagex could not be lieing that it won't have an effect on rs but they just want to replensh their cash reserves incase of another emergancy. Another thing was left out was that jagex was also recently sued and they had to divert cash for that.

 

Quote from the article: Into the cash reserves emptied by the MechScape incident?

That covers your first part, and for the second part...I haven't read anything about that. Could you point out which lawsuit exactly you mean?

 

Both articles were a good read.

 

As for #1: The entire purpose of rwt and botting is to show off skills/items/gp. If they can't act superior to real players than they would have no reason to rwt/bot. At least thats how I view a botter's outlook towards Runescape. And that is why I can't see cheater worlds ever working.

 

 

As for #2: Of course they're about money, its just getting more apparent again. From the onset of bonus exp weekend #1 I was almost certain any following weekends would be members only as well. And they're trying their hardest to milk the "wildy's back" theme for all its worth, through items in the store and the wildywyrm "update".

 

What it comes down to for me right now is that Runescape is still a game I enjoy playing for what it is. Do I dislike certain aspects of it? Yes. But I can't name a single game I liked 100%. I only wish they didn't blatantly lie when they claimed they can counter bots. Its obvious they can't and I doubt they ever will be able to.

 

And I liked the use of references...until I saw Wiki links.

 

Well, first of all I only used wiki references of which I was sure they were legit because I have seen it on the original source. Unfortunately, if you check the references in the wiki article, it seems to have expired over time, keep in mind that was a few years ago. Also, I used references to state where I got my information/inspiration from, not to make it 100% failsafe. If I wanted an article good enough to be used at court I would have put way more work into that ;)

 

The second article I really did enjoy because it had sources (although #8 and #9 turned out to have expired RSOF links). Sources are important; we need them to prove that someone isn't just talking trash.

 

Now, we speak in double terms when we say that Jagex is "in it for the cash", since they are a business. The reason that we'd probably say this is that in the past, they did give out an outwardly PR image that that felt more like, "Profits be damned! We want the game to be good for our community!", but that PR message has been dampened - at least in the writer's mind - with some of the more recent happenings at Jagex, either internally with the company, with RuneScape, with FunOrb, and/or with Stellar Dawn.

 

In my mind, saying "they're in it for the cash" is a misnomer, and mostly unfair of a for-profit, multi-million dollar online MMO. They *have* to pay for their staff and equipment in one way or another. It's probably more appropriate to say, in one's own terms, that their corporate focus - or corporate culture - has changed.

 

#8 was the sticky on the wildywyrms update, unfortunately it got eaten by chewy already. I should've watched out and bumped it :/

As for #9, the link isn't quite correct, replace the "a" after ...forums? with a "1", then it will take you there.

 

And as said....of course it's a company. They have to focus on making money or they will never succeed in the modern word of capitalism ;)

They simply shouldn't take it too far, especially when it's only about short-term profit....in the long run they will hurt themselves.

 

 

---------------

 

And yes, I guess my article is indeed quite "doomsday"-like, but I had to get that off my heart ;)

[TwistedTrip]

Interesting read, i truly hope Runescape hasn't been turned in for the short-term profit gain.

[Cowman_133]

Enjoyed both articles, particularly the second one. Very thorough with references and makes it a lot more believable.

 

Scary really.

[Ts_Stormrage]

Last I checked, changing a rope to a portal short-circuited thousands of bots. If you're going to claim my solution is unworkable, you're going to have to explain why all of those bots coincidentally stopped working at the same time as something in the game changed randomly if the two events had nothing to do with each other.

 

It's funny how I stated in my very article that in-game solutions will never work on a permanent basis, and then several people come up with in-game solutions :D

In this instance as it was also with the Wildy Wall, all the programmer needs to adjust is a few parameters...

 

first article- Cheating servers would never work. If jagex sells gold themselves then rwt sites will just lower their own prices. When jagex lowers the price to much then no one would buy gold from jagex because the rwt servers would be full. All the high level content that people bought would be full and there would be no point to doing them. Those accounts would then go back to rwt sites to get gold for normal servers where there is less competition. and everything goes back to normal.

 

Would you rather buy your gold from a shadey, possibly creditcard info thieving company that thrives on breaking the rules, or from Jagex themselves...

 

And full servers can't possibly be a valid argument... Just dedicate more to the cheaters, and voila...

 

And even if this is successful whats to stop gold farmers from taking their place? Moving things won't work on them

Gold farmers will need people that buy it from them; see above for the rest of my counterpoint...

 

Both articles were a good read.

 

As for #1: The entire purpose of rwt and botting is to show off skills/items/gp. If they can't act superior to real players than they would have no reason to rwt/bot. At least thats how I view a botter's outlook towards Runescape. And that is why I can't see cheater worlds ever working.

 

It'll be rough at first, but (and I dare to predict this) once there is a sizable cheaters population, IT will become the "main" runescape...

Keep in mind that Jagex would NEVER dare call the idea I had, if implemented, a cheat server... We all know it would be, but Jagex will probably come up with something like "members+" or something...

 

To the first article: Two things.

 

1) No, that probably won't be the last time you complain about RWT/bots/cheaters/other ilk. At least, in some other form or avenue. Not that it's a bad thing per se, but that it's the most common complaint that the players have now - cheaters.

 

2) Claiming that there's a problem is vastly easier than offering a fix to it. Consider that a problem can be identified or diagnosed in very basic terms, and that the solution is often *not* a simple one to implement, regardless of how much we delude ourselves in believing so.

 

I do agree with this premise though. If we do have an issue with bots, we should be prepared to offer solutions to them, with the basic idea in mind that we neither have the whole picture, nor will our problems be all-encompassing to deter/break bots and leave normal players alone.

 

I must respectfully disagree with the notion of putting cheaters onto their own server. In my mind, this draws too much attention to them, and wouldn't serve to deter anyone from botting - they'd just do it over there, instead. Instant gratification; giving the lazier players exactly what they want, now in a packaged, legal form. Big deal. Removing them permanently from the high scores, on the other hand, that may be better.

 

I do sincerely hope it IS my last time writing a Times article about it though :)

With this article I've tried also to get people off of the idea that there should be an in-game fix to the botting problem... This thread is evidence that I have failed...

 

But I do wonder: Why is quarantaining cheaters and removing any influence on the "real" game a bad thing?

 

Second article: All I can say is I think I found a new favorite Tip it Times author. Glad to see the Times starting to return to publishing better articles as it used to a couple of years ago.

 

Yeah I've been trying to get him to sign on more permanently... :P

[green9090]

Last I checked, changing a rope to a portal short-circuited thousands of bots. If you're going to claim my solution is unworkable, you're going to have to explain why all of those bots coincidentally stopped working at the same time as something in the game changed randomly if the two events had nothing to do with each other.

 

It's funny how I stated in my very article that in-game solutions will never work on a permanent basis, and then several people come up with in-game solutions :D

In this instance as it was also with the Wildy Wall, all the programmer needs to adjust is a few parameters...

 

Dude, if you're not even going to read my idea before you call it stupid, I don't see any reason for me to read your next article before I call it stupid.

[Racheya]

Last I checked, changing a rope to a portal short-circuited thousands of bots. If you're going to claim my solution is unworkable, you're going to have to explain why all of those bots coincidentally stopped working at the same time as something in the game changed randomly if the two events had nothing to do with each other.

 

It's funny how I stated in my very article that in-game solutions will never work on a permanent basis, and then several people come up with in-game solutions :D

In this instance as it was also with the Wildy Wall, all the programmer needs to adjust is a few parameters...

 

Dude, if you're not even going to read my idea before you call it stupid, I don't see any reason for me to read your next article before I call it stupid.

Step back from the arguing.

 

On Times threads in particular, if you can't debate nicely then you won't debate at all. :)

[Ts_Stormrage]

I didn't mean to call it stupid (if I even used those words, lol)... But whatever you program into RuneScape will ulimately be overcome by the programmers of the bots... This is what I said in my article as well as my post... So is it then a good idea to keep on suggesting changed to the game itself? No... It's, for a lack of a better word, stupid :D

 

Therefor, I think you are massivly over-reacting, so feel free to call my articles stupid in the future, even when everyone else isn't...

[Bladewing]

i challenge you to reread (rather, read for a first time since it is painfully obvious you haven't yet) green's suggestion

[green9090]

i challenge you to reread (rather, read for a first time since it is painfully obvious you haven't yet) green's suggestion

+1

[Blyaunte]

All I can say is that I sure as hell hope that someone comes up with some kind of solution for bots, some time soon, because they are getting to be ridiculous ...

<_<

[lordkafei]

Last I checked, changing a rope to a portal short-circuited thousands of bots. If you're going to claim my solution is unworkable, you're going to have to explain why all of those bots coincidentally stopped working at the same time as something in the game changed randomly if the two events had nothing to do with each other.

 

It's funny how I stated in my very article that in-game solutions will never work on a permanent basis, and then several people come up with in-game solutions :D

In this instance as it was also with the Wildy Wall, all the programmer needs to adjust is a few parameters...

 

But why should an in-game solution have to be permanent? In-game solutions can work on a temporary basis. This is exactly why a purely passive (automated) way of trapping bots will not work. It's bots against bots.

 

But couple a human AI (i.e. JMod) to catch the offenders when the scenery/resource change happens and you make the bot detection smarter than the bots can ever hope to be.

 

The linchpin is stern enforcement on Jagex' part when it comes to meting out punishment. I do not have faith in this company handing out stern punishments when it would have a negative impact on the bottom line.

[Ts_Stormrage]

"The linchpin is stern enforcement on Jagex' part when it comes to meting out punishment. I do not have faith in this company handing out stern punishments when it would have a negative impact on the bottom line. "

 

 

This faith has also dropped to zero for me, especially with the recent bot-apologetic measures taken...

This is exactly why I refuse to believe that Jagex will put any more staff on dealing with cheaters without there being a permanent solution...

This is ALSO why I think Green's suggestion will not work for Jagex...

[green9090]

Right. In other words, it WOULD work, but Jagex doesn't care enough to do it. Which was my ENTIRE POINT OF POSTING IT IN THE FIRST PLACE, pointing out that Jagex does NOT care about bots and only say they do to make the players happy.

[Sir_Squab]

Regarding random events:

 

Most companies have moved their call centers to India because it is cheap. Why not let such a 'cheap' call center control the randoms.

 

There is a human behind each random. In India. A real person who will have an actual job.

 

For instance: identify this object. It already exist as a random, but why not put a human behind it who can change the picture at will, and when he suspects a bot continue to ask questions.

 

The picture could be changed on a daily basis, or even an hourly basis. And the community would actually have an increase in the feeling that they are playing a mmorpg.

 

I see 3 benefits:

1. you create jobs in places that can use jobs.

2. you make the random flexible and harder to beat.

3. you increase the mmorpg'ishness of the game.

 

I don't want some random Indian who probably has a sparse understanding of English testing me for botting.

 

And TS Stormrage: reason why removing cheaters from the game onto a private server won't work is because the motivation to bot on normal servers is to get ahead of people on normal servers who don't bot, rather then have your bots competing.

 

The goal is not (nor should it ever be) to eliminate 100% of the botting population. That is an impossible standard, and Jagex probably cant do a lot better than they are now.

 

The goal should instead be to penalize & stigmatize botting until it becomes disused. This is where many believe Jagex is dropping the ball.

 

Perception is everything, and Jagex needs to counter the impression that it has gone soft on botters.

 

We need to see the naming and shaming as was done in the true Golden Age. If nothing else, it will give the clean players some inkling that Jagex is at least doing something.

I like the idea of credit card bans. Sure, some people will still use other payment methods. But youve knocked some bad apples out and will put the fear of Guthix into the rest.

 

The stat rollbacks are giving the impression that the monthly membership fee is the most important thing to Jagex. This perception that they have put recurring memberships ahead of the good of the game is a poison that will kill RS.

 

true Golden Age

 

You lost all my respect for your post at that point.

P.S.: We have name changing now. And a large enough community that shaming someone would actually encourage some people, and have some people not give a damn. Especially considering how many people always ask about what the new update is after it's posted on the freaking main page. And, if we're looking at a several thousand, or even hundred name list of people banned, no one will read anything beyond like 10 names.

 

I still think that constantly changing the game to fight bots won't work, but at this point I think we should just agree to disagree. And hope Jagex tries it, just to end this argument one way or another. I think though, there's only so many small chances Jagex can do to the game. Think of the wilde wall - they need to make the wall then implement the actual wall. Takes time. Presumably more then a day's work, which is how long it stopped the bots for.

 

Imagine bots like the borg. You can hit one with something and kill it with it, but then they adapt and after that it doesn't work. There's only a limited amount of places you can move or ways you can change a rope before it really, really starts

1. Pissing players off.

2. Taking under an hour to implement.