[POLL] Is Dungeoneering a FAILURE?

[Fairness]

Could be a lot better. There are many problems with Dungeoneering in my opinion. First off, about the gameplay itself. Why is it that the whole skill is like a mini-RuneScape yet 90% of all that content is unused, even if you're not really obsessed about efficiency? Melee is the way to go, range and mage are inferior, except until the very end when you get Hexhunter (and by that point you already have more dungeoneering than you'll ever really need, I seriously don't care about anything that only helps me to reach the 120 I'll never get). Most of the crafting is not used - you craft a few cosmics and laws in the beginning, put on your bound items, go through the rooms, kill monsters scavenging equipment. When you go solo, that's when you need to really use those resources the map gives. In this case, the most I do is craft a bow (if needed for the boss), maybe make some armor (if needed for the boss) and fish (guess when). Naturally, soloing is ineffective, despite the fact that it deserves a lot more merit to complete a map alone than with the help of many other people who can speed up the whole map incredibly. Teaming is like 10 times better experience, and Jagex has promised to fix this, but no, the Gowers have stopped caring, which means that every minor issue in each update will now need 5 years to get fixed (as opposed to the 2 we have had before). The applications of the skill outside of Daemonheim are pretty good - though still not perfect, since the resource dungeons have made the affected areas much more inviting, and thus these dungeons have also become crowded like the main location (but not at the expense of the main location's growth).

[green9090]

I like it, but it could be improved greatly.

 

If you aren't playing with competent people, it is literally the worst thing in RS. Nothing else makes me want to punch things like w117 dungeoneering.

 

The big problem with it is that your team can be selfish [rooster] gobblers and they benefit for it. Sit in the base the whole time while I solo GDs and die multiple times? Guess who gets the exp penalty. Hog all the food so everyone else dies on the boss? Guess who gets the exp penalty. I do every puzzle and kill the majority of the monsters while everyone else wanders aimlessly? We all get the exact same experience bonus.

 

Not that there's a good way to fix this- any sort of attempt would draw a large experience divide between keyers and DPSers, which would probably mean that EVERYONE, no matter how incompetent, is fighting over keys so that they get the door opening bonus. That would be a lot worse.

 

I think it would be kind of nice to see some sort of sharing the pain system for deaths though, so that you have an incentive to look after your team and make sure one guy isn't hogging all the food to make sure that he won't die and lose exp. If every time someone died EVERYONE lost 4% exp, I guarantee you'd see a greater sense of sharing in 117/148.

 

Then again, then you'd get trolls that just die for the fun of it. The main problem, as Grimy said, is that the community is [cabbage], and making a skill that requires interacting with it is a fundamentally stupid idea. It is nice once you've gone through the hell it requires to get with people who don't utterly suck, though.

[TheAncient]

Lmao Studio just cause you have a dinkly little disclaimer doesnt mean your original argument doesn't suck

[Mazhar]

The skill itself is amazing, it's the only skill where you can actually learn stuff as you level. I do hate how it's set up, I can't dg with my friends because our floors don't match and whatnot. It was designed to encourage players to interact yet it limits me from the people I really want to dg with.

[Hamtaro]

@Cheezedude

In regards to its being a mini game, can you name all of the skills where you don't get random events? Let's see, there's uh, hmm, this is really tough, I can't figure this one out... DUNG. Just like every other mini game.

 

Chaotics take far longer than 10-20 hours to get from LEVEL ONE, not from already being able to reach floor 35. Getting to 80 in the first place is the problem. Overloads come from a buyable 99 (96?), and as opposed to real life, time =/= money. You can't buy your way through dung because (just like SC) you can't bring any of your own gear. Item flipping, merchanting, farming herbs, and MTK require almost not time whatsoever.

 

The dungeons are very repetitive. You can have 100 different types of monsters, but most are still point and click. There are very few designs for rooms and if you pay attention, you will notice there are (exactly like I said in my original post), "12 or so designs of non-boss/non-specialty (specialty being something like a puzzle room) rooms on each theme (displayed by each song)." [Hence my saying someone missed the point]. There a very few room designs and different permutations of those same rooms hardly leads to variations. For instance, one day you could eat an apple, then a banana, and then an orange. The next day, you could eat a banana, an orange, and then an apple. There is no variation, only a change in the order in which you see them. But of course, Jagex will throw in the occasional watermelon (puzzle), which is just like the others, but takes longer to finish.

 

In regards to bosses, it's good to see you missed the point (again). I said, "You see the same 2-3 bosses floor after floor (on the same theme)" and you reply that there are over 25 in all of dungeoneering. Did I say all of dungeoneering? No. On the ice floors, it's always (please forgive any spelling errors of their names) Luminescent Ice Fiend, Asthea Frostweb, and Tokash. On the Abandoned floors, it's always the damn Skeletal Horde every single [bleep]ing time. On the Furnished floors, it's always Stomp, Harlakk, and Lexicus. I so rarely see any other bosses than those ones that it feels as if I may as well be grinding any other skill, because those have an ACTUAL USE outside of Dung. If you're going to say how the rewards are useful outside, Full Void is useful outside of PC, but where's all of my Pest Control XP? Oh, right, that's because playing PC has no use anywhere else except the rewards.

 

So when I complained about Dung back in the day and everyone told me "oh you'll like it way better once you get to floor 35," but when I get there now all of the sudden it changes and I'm a newb because I don't have a three digit level. I feel so insubordinate right now :cry:. Nice contradictions among the Dung'ers, I must say. You guys sure know how to be the best elitists.

 

I'd consider using your clan sometime this summer, but I have a feeling I would be branded as someone who "isn't willing to learn," or some crap like that, just because I pointed out very few of the many flaws with the mini game. The flaw with the clans is that you get kicked for being "slow" (aka not wanting to die) or not binding a hood that has no use half the time on the higher level floors. I think I'll stick to duoing with my semi mentally challenged brother, who is, at least, smarter than the random kids w117 has to offer and the efficiency trolls of clans. Once I get to level 83, I will already have all of the rewards I want, none of which are chatoics or mage necklaces. I don't want to spend 200k/hr on some reward that will be outclassed within the year or some useless necklace for a combat stat that I, quite literally, never use. Only 127k tokens to go before I can quit the mini game for good!

 

@Will_H

Looks like I got a 2 for 1 on that irrelevant reply prediction. I've been on this forum long enough to know how you guys pick one thing I say (usually sarcasm, hyperbole, or a joke) and make a huge deal out of nothing, while totally ignoring the parts where I make my actual arguments. For that, I may as well predict your breathing because it's a guaranteed thing, every single time. Here's a tip for you guys when reading my posts: don't skim. Sorry that I don't spam useless tiny comments for post count (*cough* TheAncient *cough*) with barely any relation to the post I'm replying to. Now to address your post.

 

No, it's just a mini game; I already outlined why earlier in this post in the reply to the user with the communist mudkip signature. I'm level 73 (no lamps/tears/penguin points, I have the rewards to prove it) and it is just as boring and annoying as it was at level 12. The mini game is very repetitive as, again, outlined in the earlier part of this post. I am part of neither camp, because I always duo with my brother (same level, nearly the same XP) and we are on the Occult floors, bored to death. It has no more real use than your average mini game rewards (and some TOTALLY [sarcasm] useful resource dungeons).

 

This should be a fun 3-5 on 1 now. Bring it.

[SirIzenhime]

they aren't irrelevant replies......people disagreeing with you doesn't make their argument irrelevant.

Niether of them skimmed, chez replied to exactly what you said based on what he felt.

 

L2forum.

:wall: :wall:

[Hamtaro]

HERE we go again. THANK YOU for proving my point.

[Saradomin_Mage]

Just going to add my bit in.

 

The skill itself is amazing, it's the only skill where you can actually learn stuff as you level.

I can easily say that I possess far more skill and finesse at Dungeoneering at my current level than when I was starting out small with solo's and duo's.

 

The dungeons are very repetitive. You can have 100 different types of monsters, but most are still point and click.

Pointing and clicking isn't really the best strategy in larger dungeons. In 5:5 teams, you need to identify dangerous targets, actively engage your foe based on your team role (magic/hexhunter/melee), and prayer flashing soul split + other prayers rewards you with reduced food consumption. It's nothing as linear as that - Dungeoneering combat is by far some of the most fun stuff in the game.

 

There are very few designs for rooms and if you pay attention, you will notice there are (exactly like I said in my original post), "12 or so designs of non-boss/non-specialty (specialty being something like a puzzle room) rooms on each theme (displayed by each song)."

 

The song part is wrong, but that's not the issue here.

Each room being set up differently actually lends it's way to various strategies. One particular room I enjoy has a wall along a side so I can just run past all the monsters and avoid any encounters.

Some have furniture to allow me to set up magic attacks on helpless melee foes.

Others are open so we can split to corners and mage a target in the centre, who will waste time rotating while picking a target.

The mix of the monsters in a room and their layouts feed you with variety at you have to develop on the spot techniques to outflank them through position and your combat style.

It gets even more fun when you're playing with a blood necklace.

[SirIzenhime]

tell us what your point is then...

From what I've read, your Point(s) made in your post were very well replied to.

You can't just keep spewing "HA!!! You proved my point!!!", and never tell us what that point was supposed to be.

Again...People disagreeing with you does not mean they posted something irrelevant (how is anything, anyone has said, irrelevant so far?), people disagreeing with you also does not mean they missed the point.

 

Obviously anyone replying to you has "missed the point", so could you please....very specifically, bluntly and in the most understandable way possible...TELL US WHAT THAT POINT IS!!?!

[Hamtaro]

tell us what your point is then...

From what I've read, your Point(s) made in your post were very well replied to.

You can't just keep spewing "HA!!! You proved my point!!!", and never tell us what that point was supposed to be.

Again...People disagreeing with you does not mean they posted something irrelevant (how is anything, anyone has said, irrelevant so far?), people disagreeing with you also does not mean they missed the point.

 

Obviously anyone replying to you has "missed the point", so could you please....very specifically, bluntly and in the most understandable way possible...TELL US WHAT THAT POINT IS!!?!

Try reading the post. You can, quite clearly, see you proved my point in what I said to Will_H :rolleyes:.

 

TIF > RSOF? You guys read just as little as they.

 

I'll make it easy for you:

I've been on this forum long enough to know how you guys pick one thing I say (usually sarcasm, hyperbole, or a joke) and make a huge deal out of nothing, while totally ignoring the parts where I make my actual arguments. For that, I may as well predict your breathing because it's a guaranteed thing, every single time. Here's a tip for you guys when reading my posts: don't skim.

Hmm where was the last post we saw that?

[Lacoste]

Its my favourite thing to do in rs.

 

I cant be bothered to argue with studio though, so I'll leave it at that.

[Matt_Marche]

Clicking on trees and obstacles must take so much effort.

 

Dungeoneering is the only skill that requires skill. You can read a guide for every other skill and learn how to optimize exp gains within a few hours, but in dungeoneering there will always be a new situation which requires logic and actual skill.

[SirIzenhime]

@Will_H

Looks like I got a 2 for 1 on that irrelevant reply prediction. I've been on this forum long enough to know how you guys pick one thing I say (usually sarcasm, hyperbole, or a joke) and make a huge deal out of nothing, while totally ignoring the parts where I make my actual arguments. For that, I may as well predict your breathing because it's a guaranteed thing, every single time. Here's a tip for you guys when reading my posts: don't skim. Sorry that I don't spam useless tiny comments for post count (*cough* TheAncient *cough*) with barely any relation to the post I'm replying to. Now to address your post.

 

This?

Sorry to tell you this, but I did read that, and I very much disagree with your analysis.

Chez ignored almost NOTHING from your first post. He replied to all but like...1 thing you said.

Perhaps you didn't understand how he replied, and didn't read it right?

[Hamtaro]

@Will_H

Looks like I got a 2 for 1 on that irrelevant reply prediction. I've been on this forum long enough to know how you guys pick one thing I say (usually sarcasm, hyperbole, or a joke) and make a huge deal out of nothing, while totally ignoring the parts where I make my actual arguments. For that, I may as well predict your breathing because it's a guaranteed thing, every single time. Here's a tip for you guys when reading my posts: don't skim. Sorry that I don't spam useless tiny comments for post count (*cough* TheAncient *cough*) with barely any relation to the post I'm replying to. Now to address your post.

 

This?

Sorry to tell you this, but I did read that, and I very much disagree with your analysis.

Chez ignored almost NOTHING from your first post. He replied to all but like...1 thing you said.

Perhaps you didn't understand how he replied, and didn't read it right?

How about the part where he missed everything that I put in parentheses? That's one thing?

 

In regards to your post, you took:

-1 hyperbole

-made a big deal out of nothing

-ignored everything else

 

That's exactly what you proved. Looks like I got my 3-5 on 1 prediction wrong, though. This should be a fun afternoon...

[Gravy]

dungeoneering is the only skill.

[SirIzenhime]

-1 hyperbole

-made a big deal out of nothing

-ignored everything else

 

-I disagree

 

-That may be, but I was (am) just genuenly confused by your reponses to others, and have been seeking clarification, it seemed the only to get you to actually answer my questions

 

-Well duh, I had nothing to say about your opinion on dung, all I cared about is why you thought Chez and Holme's answers were "proving your point" :rolleyes:

[Obtaurian]

I'd consider using your clan sometime this summer, but I have a feeling I would be branded as someone who "isn't willing to learn," or some crap like that, just because I pointed out very few of the many flaws with the mini game. The flaw with the clans is that you get kicked for being "slow" (aka not wanting to die) or not binding a hood that has no use half the time on the higher level floors. I think I'll stick to duoing with my semi mentally challenged brother, who is, at least, smarter than the random kids w117 has to offer and the efficiency trolls of clans. Once I get to level 83, I will already have all of the rewards I want, none of which are chatoics or mage necklaces. I don't want to spend 200k/hr on some reward that will be outclassed within the year or some useless necklace for a combat stat that I, quite literally, never use. Only 127k tokens to go before I can quit the mini game for good!

 

I'm going to ignore the rest of your post because it's just irrelevant blathering.

 

Hi, I'm an admin and keyer in DGS. I would absolutely kick you for not dying in a floor. If you're just standing outside of guardian rooms complaining about being low on prayer/food, you're wasting everyone's time. You know what the fastest way to replenish prayer and LP is? Take a wild guess. Every good dungeoneer knows that dying is sometimes necessary. Hoods are incredibly useful for every floor set (except for frozen).

 

As Gwyn pointed out, dungeoneering is far more complex than you think it is. You're trying to write off your ignorance as fact. You should work on that.

[Hamtaro]

-1 hyperbole

-made a big deal out of nothing

-ignored everything else

 

-I disagree

 

-That may be, but I was (am) just genuenly confused by your reponses to others, and have been seeking clarification, it seemed the only to get you to actually answer my questions

 

-Well duh, I had nothing to say about your opinion on dung, all I cared about is why you thought Chez and Holme's answers were "proving your point" :rolleyes:

Will's post pretty much addressed nothing that I said... at all. Chez's post missed everything that I put in parentheses, so I responded to thing that, essentially, I had already addressed. You, on the other hand, proved what I had to say about users on TIF who don't understand how opinions work and require a 10+ page argument (40 posts per page, too) to reach that conclusion every time. E.g. the crashing thread, the CLS vs. Rapier threads, the thread about killing cave slimes or whatever it was vs. men in Edgeville.

 

I'd consider using your clan sometime this summer, but I have a feeling I would be branded as someone who "isn't willing to learn," or some crap like that, just because I pointed out very few of the many flaws with the mini game. The flaw with the clans is that you get kicked for being "slow" (aka not wanting to die) or not binding a hood that has no use half the time on the higher level floors. I think I'll stick to duoing with my semi mentally challenged brother, who is, at least, smarter than the random kids w117 has to offer and the efficiency trolls of clans. Once I get to level 83, I will already have all of the rewards I want, none of which are chatoics or mage necklaces. I don't want to spend 200k/hr on some reward that will be outclassed within the year or some useless necklace for a combat stat that I, quite literally, never use. Only 127k tokens to go before I can quit the mini game for good!

 

I'm going to ignore the rest of your post because it's just irrelevant blathering.

 

Hi, I'm an admin and keyer in DGS. I would absolutely kick you for not dying in a floor. If you're just standing outside of guardian rooms complaining about being low on prayer/food, you're wasting everyone's time. You know what the fastest way to replenish prayer and LP is? Take a wild guess. Every good dungeoneer knows that dying is sometimes necessary. Hoods are incredibly useful for every floor set (except for frozen).

 

As Gwyn pointed out, dungeoneering is far more complex than you think it is. You're trying to write off your ignorance as fact. You should work on that.

It's so cute seeing users make replies to things I addressed already that they tl;dr'd. Maybe if dying weren't a -12% mod, I wouldn't care so much, but I'm always the first one into GD's because of my defence level. I'll pass on the hood to keep my plate. *Gasp* it's "less efficient." Who gives a [bleep]? It's a children's video game. The fact that efficiency trolls exist in this game makes me concerned (and by concerned I mean laugh). Dung is hardly complex. Keeping track of keys and where things are is simply having the ability to micro manage and multi task. I respect keyers in that regard, but the rest is an utter and complete joke. I've read all of the super-massive dung articles, pages, and threads, and guess what? When you read them, your team mates in w117 read a totally different thread/page with totally contradictory information to what you read. Ignorance of the mini game is certainly not an issue. If anything, I don't work well with others.

 

Brb for popcorn, this is getting good.

[Dragonlordjl]

Dungeoneering is very much "Your milage may vary."

 

The overall design of the skill is terrible. Forcing people to team with each other in order to get anything like good experience rates is a recipe for disaster in this game. I saw the present situation coming as soon as the skill was released--- right now, if you do not have friends to train with, it's extremely doubtful you'll make it past level 80 and making it to level 100 is almost impossible. I knew that once the popularity of the skill died down and the "veterans" quit training it, finding quality teams would become almost impossible. For this reason, Jagex should have balanced it better--- soloing is really boring and often you'll run into doors you just cannot do, which destroys your experience rates, which are already nowhere close to team experience rates. If soloing were closer in exp gains to teaming, this skill would be a whole lot better.

 

TL;DR: If you have friends to DG with, it's a lot of fun and a great skill. If you don't, it's the worst skill in the game. With the creation of DGS, dungeoneering has once again become one of my favorite skills; hell when I'm on RS, I usually want to DG.

 

 

 

Some changes I'd make to DG are first of all, add a "bonus" to doing C6 solo floors... One formula I had in mind is 1% bonus times the floor number, so if you solo F47 then you'd get a 47% bonus. Keeping in mind that you lose the "team bonus" which ammounts to like 26%, and the amount of rooms is far less in a medium than in a large, this would help bridge the gap between solo and teams without making solo more rewarding than teaming. At least, in theory.

 

I'd also like to see them make some changes to the rare slayer drops; either make slayer monsters drop their special drops 100% of the time (so if you see a Night Spider, it always drops a hood), or allow players to purchase the slayer drops in exchange for tokens. You would have to select which bind to replace with the slayer drop after purchase, but this would make it where if you are one of those unlucky people who have gone 10m exp without seeing a hood, you have hope and it would also enable more people to have Hex bows. Of course, the prices would need to be steep... Like 1m tokens for a Hex bow and 500k tokens for a Hood.

 

They also need more token rewards in general; stopping at level 90 DG with the useless piece of [cabbage] necklace is not good. They need to make rewards that require like 100 DG, 105 DG, etc all the way up to something really freaking good at 120 DG. Some rewards they could add are an inventory item that automatically picks up charms or coins, chaotic spear, modifications that you add to the DG shields to make them better, etc.

[Saradomin_Mage]

What did you have in parentheses anyway?

(specialty being something like a puzzle room)

Sure, you can call them that if you want. Remember that the room setups lend to various strengths in attacking.

(displayed by each song)

It doesn't work that way. Songs are randomly chosen to play for a room with monsters in it.

(on the same theme)

There are a selection of 6 bosses through a theme (less if you attempt higher floors on it). It's entirely possible to get Astea Frostweb just as you're about to progress to Abandoned 1. Jagex wrote up the odds for each boss, and I'm fine with it the way it is.

(which I can't get to in the first place without a team)

There's always the solo option, which I did until ... 75?

And I could easily get W117 teams to start off with when I began my team career at that point.

(anti-poison totem, gem bag, bone crusher, etc)

I have to agree with you that the rewards are actually worth the time and effort.

From the ones you've mentioned:

Anti-p totem : Helps with Pyramid Plunder (a thieving minigame where you can't get randoms)

Gem bag : Helps collect Slayer drops (like in Kuradal's dungeon, where you can't get randoms)

Bonecrusher : Great for hunting with falconry / box-trapping / general slayer (like in Kuradal's dungeon, where you can't get randoms)

 

EDIT:

 

Who gives a [bleep]? It's a children's video game. The fact that efficiency trolls exist in this game makes me concerned (and by concerned I mean laugh).

 

[...]

 

I've read all of the super-massive dung articles, pages, and threads

Okay.

When you read them, your team mates in w117 read a totally different thread/page with totally contradictory information to what you read. Ignorance of the mini game is certainly not an issue. If anything, I don't work well with others.

Well, you can always look for other like-minded people (DGS plug again) if you're unsatisfied with w117 team-mates.

Edited March 12, 2011 by Saradomin_Mage

[Obtaurian]

If dungeoneering was as simple as reading a guide, DGS wouldn't exist. I can see that you're being very defensive and getting riled up (I would be too if I suddenly had a bunch of 100+ dungeoneers proving me wrong!), so I'm going to step out of this conversation now, though not without two parting points:

 

1. You are a complete moron.

2. Lrn2dg.

 

To everyone arguing with studio, you should just quote those two points over and over and over again until it sinks into his/her head. Using reason and logic is clearly a tall order here.

[Bassy]

I love it. It's truly the only skill that involves some form of dynamic thought.

 

However, the reward system is vastly under-stocked. You can have everything by level 107 or so. I think there should be some very high-end rewards worth around the 1m token mark to truly flesh it out.

[Hamtaro]

If dungeoneering was as simple as reading a guide, DGS wouldn't exist. I can see that you're being very defensive and getting riled up (I would be too if I suddenly had a bunch of 100+ dungeoneers proving me wrong!), so I'm going to step out of this conversation now, though not without two parting points:

 

1. You are a complete moron.

2. Lrn2dg.

 

To everyone arguing with studio, you should just quote those two points over and over and over again until it sinks into his/her head. Using reason and logic is clearly a tall order here.

Personal attacks = dung doesn't suck? Oh darn, you win :-(

 

I was considering joining DGS, but I'm assuming that's out the question now anyway. Well, I guess that's a good thing if this is who runs it. I'll stick to casual DG with my semi mentally challenged brother who, to be honest, understands that games are meant to (prepare to be completely shocked) have... fun? Oh my God, I must my out of my mind to suggest such a thing! Games are clearly meant to be work simulators where you have to learn how to do something useless and work with annoying people. God forbid I want to relax in my free time.

[Blankblankblank]

My second favorite skill next to Slayer. The thing is though, that I wouldn't train it if It didn't have as good rewards as it does, or I didn't need to get them back with tokens if they're lost. I still think it could be improved where soloing is concerned, rare slayer drops, more resource dungeons, and more rewards like some chaotic armor. But it's still far more enjoyable then most other skills that just have asinine repetition, and the xps/hour are very good once you get into rushing.

 

People just get too hung up on whether or not it's a mini game. Who cares? If you really want a chaotic weapon, suck it up and find a team.

[Dragonlordjl]

If dungeoneering was as simple as reading a guide, DGS wouldn't exist. I can see that you're being very defensive and getting riled up (I would be too if I suddenly had a bunch of 100+ dungeoneers proving me wrong!), so I'm going to step out of this conversation now, though not without two parting points:

 

1. You are a complete moron.

2. Lrn2dg.

 

To everyone arguing with studio, you should just quote those two points over and over and over again until it sinks into his/her head. Using reason and logic is clearly a tall order here.

Personal attacks = dung doesn't suck? Oh darn, you win :-(

 

I was considering joining DGS, but I'm assuming that's out the question now anyway. Well, I guess that's a good thing if this is who runs it. I'll stick to casual DG with my semi mentally challenged brother who, to be honest, understands that games are meant to (prepare to be completely shocked) have... fun? Oh my God, I must my out of my mind to suggest such a thing! Games are clearly meant to be work simulators where you have to learn how to do something useless and work with annoying people. God forbid I want to relax in my free time.

Again, perspective. Many people, myself included, find fun in doing 20-30 minute dungeons and reaping the rewards of 160k+ xp/hour from that.