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Account Hijacking & Jagex’ Item Return Policy


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#21
RU_Insane
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The above is an excellent reason to avoid linking things like a Facebook account to a Runescape account. Although I understand their marketing incentive, it is irresponsible for Jagex to advocate these connections, security-wise.

Regarding the effect on the rate market, any actual effect will be solely due to unfounded panic. Most estimates have put the lost items at closer to 200 billion, but more importantly these items weren't in the market to begin with. The player who lost the items was well-known to hoard rares, not putting them back into the market. If anything, her newfound lack of wealth should decrease demand for rares, since if she should return to Runescape it will take her much longer to resume acquiring and hoarding rares.

I don't know the exact means used by the perpetrators to gain the relevant recovery answers for the account in question. Maybe the account's owner really is partially to blame for connecting Runescape and social networking accounts, but many players do this, and Jagex is now encouraging it. If Jagex proposes recovery questions that could be answered by i.e. viewing the account holder's Facebook page, and also encourages players to associate their Runescape and social networking accounts, doesn't that place at least some of the responsibility on them?


Nicely worded. I agree that some of the blame is potentially on Jagex for encouraging players to associate their accounts with such personal data. It goes against their advice to keep their recoveries personal, but a few key recovery questions and other pertinent information could be deduced simply from viewing a profile page like FaceBook that disseminates such personal information.

Especially with how FaceBook is centered around connecting with old friends and family it seems, the relevant information for one to reconnect with a signifigant figure is made publicly avalible, and that same personal information that really at best, only your family should know about you is of course made public because FaceBook capitalizes on connections.

It's not FaceBook's fault of course, but the way Jagex approached the issue of advertising themselves (although other gaming companies do it too I suppose) completely eschewed any personal connection that FaceBook capitalizes on as an objective to keep their site running. If it's personal information that can endanger your account, keep it personal. If that same information exists on your public profile where you're going to link it with Jagex, don't link it, because other people can draw connections between your game account information and personal information.

In short, I would also agree that it's partly the account owner's fault for not fully thinking through the ramifications of associating themselves with Jagex on a site not affiliated with it, but Jagex chooses to advertise itself on. Had FaceBook and Jagex been official partners, such information would been eschewed from being divulged because Jagex could easily control the flow of personal details pouring through between the two sites by setting limits.

They would foresee these security threats because they're not in the exact frame of mind -- that is to advertise by taking advantage of what FaceBook gives them to do whatever -- rather than to set their own objectives with their own predefined limits as to how to reach them. In short, if Jagex had advertised themselves through a medium where they could control the flow of information being divulged, Jagex could advertise themselves to the public successfuly while also ensuring that no one could endanger their account by posting sensitive data.

Correct me if I'm wrong, Geek, but I believe a majority of those rares were sold to the public before the ban took place. So in theory, rares might dip a little or even crash for that matter since one of the biggest rare hoarders are gone. A youtube video shows the hacked acc pleading to give all the items away and quitting by framing a known person. The hacked acc actually instead, sold the items, including the santa hats for a considerably cheaper price. The certain youtube video also has pictures of the hack that took place when santas and green partyhats were being sold to the GE. So the rares stolen might have a very minimal effect on the market, but I can't speculate that rares may rise since so many hoarded rares have now reached circulation again.

The FOE people used personal information to "recover" the account. My guess is that this was
all done from sensitive information leaked by her Facebook, Twitter, or even her RS clan chat and Youtube channel.

~My last post was when I just figured this out. So sorry if I sound a little contradicted.


I've heard about rares being sold before they were banned. Since I presume the buyers got the rares for cheaper than usual, they have an incentive to sell them to make a quick profit, as opposed to the items technically not existing on the market either way because the rares are just sitting in her bank. So since I presume they'll be on the market, prices will definitely fluctuate. I would think the prices would go up because the people they sold the rares too would be looking to profit. The only factor I foresee changing any price drastically is panic trading. Since a profit is to be made from those rares, the stolen rares are obviously existing on the market.

Since the majority of rares have been sold as opposed to the minority banned, it's fallacious to assume that prices will go up simply because the perpretators were banned. The majority of the stolen rares are being traded on the market, so the same supply of rares meets the demand as before. Thus, according to basic economics, the prices should not fluctuate outside their parameters defined by this sustained supply and demand. My mistake espoused the opposite conclusion in my closing thoughts of my first post. However, since the vast amount of the populace seems to be in direct opposition to critical thinking, they will of course panic and cause prices to rise.

An interesting explanation I heard is that, should Chessy ever return to RuneScape and find herself looted, demand and thus prices would fall for rares because Chessy would be regaining her wealth. The populace would know that Chessy is no longer in possession of these rares, so it would be pointless for the demand to rise because demand assumes that supply still exists. However, even if the vast amount of rares were instead banned as opposed to being redistributed through the market, demand would fall because those rares were gone -- and you can't demand something you know someone doesn't have. Interesting take on the issue. It's not what I espouse, but interesting nonetheless.

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#22
Star_Fox
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Karma came and hit her for her greedyness. Doesn't bother me one bit.


On the contrary, she did teach the unfortunate how to make money, provide new methods and schemes to make profit,
donated to fans/subscribers and made friends with plenty of Jagex moderators. I can't say this is Karma's work
but yeh, I personally don't like her either and I rather this happen than the opposite. :rolleyes:

#23
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Runescape is quite the interesting game.
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#24
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Karma came and hit her for her greedyness. Doesn't bother me one bit.


On the contrary, she did teach the unfortunate how to make money, provide new methods and schemes to make profit,
donated to fans/subscribers and made friends with plenty of Jagex moderators. I can't say this is Karma's work
but yeh, I personally don't like her either and I rather this happen than the opposite. :rolleyes:


She seems to be a very kind soul from what I've heard of her. She gave crucial flipping advice to budding merchants. She had cash, but she gave knowledge, which can only work to produce in reciprocity. Give her a few mill and she'll be back in a few months to what I hope will be a large fraction of her former wealth. By then far more wealth will have entered the game and been distributed amongst the populace than what has been lost by one!

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#25
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She didn't really get ''hacked'', her account got recovered somehow. The hacker made a topic on foe-rs.com/forums (final ownage elite forums) but it got locked and hidden very fast. If jagex gives her stuff back they will have to give everyone who loses things to hacks from now on stuff back and that us too much work for them, that's why they don't do it I think + people will lie about it etc
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#26
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I agree completely. If Jagex doesn't reconsider, I think that Chessy018 should sue Jagex over this. Early discussions on the matter estimated her bank to be worth well over $100,000 in real life cash. Although I agree with Jagex's policy against RWT, I think the prevailing black market rates give at least a minimum figure of those items' value to her.




It's not allowed to sell ingame items or accounts so the real value of Chessy018's bank was exactly 0.


#27
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I agree completely. If Jagex doesn't reconsider, I think that Chessy018 should sue Jagex over this. Early discussions on the matter estimated her bank to be worth well over $100,000 in real life cash. Although I agree with Jagex's policy against RWT, I think the prevailing black market rates give at least a minimum figure of those items' value to her.




It's not allowed to sell ingame items or accounts so the real value of Chessy018's bank was exactly 0.

lit's not allowed to sell cocaine in most countries, but it's still done. notice the words 'black market' used by alphanos.


I think my fave quote was 'sell the bank and buy a house'

#28
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At the end of the day the character and all items belong to Jagex, not the player. This is how it has always been.

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"We don't want players to be able to buy their way to success in RuneScape. If we let players start doing this, it devalues RuneScape for others. We feel your status in real-life shouldn't affect your ability to be successful in RuneScape" Jagex 01/04/01 - 02/03/12

#29
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My account was also hijacked via account recovery and while I had only a fraction of the wealth of this player I was never entitled to any of it back. It would be unfair to have one rule for one and one rule for someone else.

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#30
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I agree completely. If Jagex doesn't reconsider, I think that Chessy018 should sue Jagex over this. Early discussions on the matter estimated her bank to be worth well over $100,000 in real life cash. Although I agree with Jagex's policy against RWT, I think the prevailing black market rates give at least a minimum figure of those items' value to her.

It's not allowed to sell ingame items or accounts so the real value of Chessy018's bank was exactly 0.

lit's not allowed to sell cocaine in most countries, but it's still done. notice the words 'black market' used by alphanos.


So you can sue the drugdealer because he gave you cut up coke?

#31
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Yeah I'm also against returning the items unless they make a system where everyone hacked gets their items back. Giving items back for only a famous persons would show jagex cares more about some players than the others which would just give the company really bad reputation.
I always imagined she'd have more rares because I remember people saying she could destroy the rares market by dumping her items but actually seeing her items I don't think it would have lead to nothing more than a quick panic selling and then the merchanters would have soon brought the prices back up.


#32
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My account was also hijacked via account recovery and while I had only a fraction of the wealth of this player I was never entitled to any of it back. It would be unfair to have one rule for one and one rule for someone else.


But the reasoning there is that Jagex does not have the resources to track the wealth of every single hijacked account. They have no obligation to invest their resources in that.

In this case, Jagex has already tracked the perpetrators down.

The police have no obligation to fish out the diamond that someone dropped into a septic tank. But if they've already fished it out, they'd better return it (Although a small fee seems reasonable).
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#33
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who really needs 1000 santas anyway :rolleyes:

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#34
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I think it's interesting that if you put your time into getting levels, if you get hacked you get the levels back. However, if you put your time into making money and get hacked, it's gone for good. Subtle message about what Jagex prefers for players to do? L

#35
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This is why recovery questions should be considered as multiple passwords.

#36
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you'd have decent security measures on your account you would never get into this kind of trouble, and it is still very much my opinion that if you do get hacked it is your own fault for not sufficiently protecting your account against it, and thus it should be you responsible for any items stolen/lost. After all, if Jagex would start to give items back now simply because the person in question lost a 1000 Santa Hats, what would stop me from asking Jagex to return the 500K I lost when I got hacked?


Although I believe this to be true in most cases, you're talking about someone with over 1k santas. Kinda makes her a target.

Honestly, I feel pretty neutral towards this to be honest. The policy is nothing new, and I don't think Jagex should change their policy just because this is a famous rich person. Although you see that IRL, so....

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#37
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I don't even see why you're having a dispute over this, it's a very simple matter. As taken from Jagex's Terms & Conditions (which every player has to agree to before making an account):

You agree that all intellectual property or other rights in any game character, account and items are and will remain our property.


http://www.runescape.../terms/terms.ws

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#38
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Currently we do not return lost/stolen items. This is why it is so important to make sure your account is as secure as possible. Make sure you do the following;


Maybe Jagex would return items in the future? I think it would only make sense.

#39
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It's been Jagex's policy since the start, and if they change their position on it there is already a backlog of thousands upon thousands of players who have lost money from bugs, hacked accounts and so forth that would also need to have their items returned. They can't just change the policy because chessy is famous, nor would it be right to do so.

There are also a huge number of issues in returning items. If player B hacks player A, taking player A's blue partyhat and selling it anonymously on the ge to player C, how would you return the hat to player A without duping it?


I acknowledge your points and I have no answer in those cases.

However, in this case - and I quote Mod Mark H - "As soon as we became aware of the situation we acted quickly banning the hijacker's accounts as well as removing any items & wealth stolen. " - which means they had the information they needed to return the items. There would be no duping in this case. But instead of returning them, they removed them forever.

If Mod Mark H had hidden behind "terms of service" then that would be different. But he didn't - he wrapped himself in the code of law. The victim in question should have recourse to recover those items from Jagex if Jagex is going to use that same law to seize them from the hijacker.

Items taken as a result of hacking can't be stolen when it is convenient for Jagex and not stolen when it isn't.


I agree completely. If Jagex doesn't reconsider, I think that Chessy018 should sue Jagex over this.
....


What? Stop right there.

http://www.runescape...orld_trading.ws
Jagex Rules & Conditions > RWT > Section 3

3. Isn’t it up to me what I do with my items & account?

No, the terms and conditions state that your RuneScape character, account and items are, and remain, the property of Jagex.


While that section describes RWT, it also applies to any items in general. ANYTHING on your account (items, xp, time, ect..) belongs to Jagex. Just because you spend 100 hours of your personal time to buy items with other virtual items does not mean your "time" gives you rights to those items.

So the point is, the Hats were, and always are, property of Jagex and not the player. You are simply renting them. If a rented car is stolen, does the insurance company reimburse you for any damages to the car? No. They would reimburse the car company. In this scenario Jagex is both the insurance company and the car company. You (as the consumer) can't sue the insurance company for not giving you money for a rented car.. You are simply out of luck with the old car, and have to work to rent a new one.

#40
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What? Stop right there.

http://www.runescape...orld_trading.ws
Jagex Rules & Conditions > RWT > Section 3

3. Isn't it up to me what I do with my items & account?

No, the terms and conditions state that your RuneScape character, account and items are, and remain, the property of Jagex.


While that section describes RWT, it also applies to any items in general. ANYTHING on your account (items, xp, time, ect..) belongs to Jagex. Just because you spend 100 hours of your personal time to buy items with other virtual items does not mean your "time" gives you rights to those items.

So the point is, the Hats were, and always are, property of Jagex and not the player. You are simply renting them. If a rented car is stolen, does the insurance company reimburse you for any damages to the car? No. They would reimburse the car company. In this scenario Jagex is both the insurance company and the car company. You (as the consumer) can't sue the insurance company for not giving you money for a rented car.. You are simply out of luck with the old car, and have to work to rent a new one.


Back atcha: Court Ruling in Runescape Case (Netherlands)
or perhaps you prefer some examples from British law: Terra Nova Blog

We are already seeing cases where the rule of law conflicts with the ToS. In those cases, law trumps ToS. In the current situation, Jagex removed the opportunity for law to run its course by deleting the stolen items before the rule of law had a chance to take its course.

Now of course, Jagex can just whip up a thousand hats if the legal process dictated it, so there is no real harm done (yet) in deleting the hats. But it’s folly to suggest that Jagex’ TOS protects them from ever having to do so.

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