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Account Hijacking & Jagex’ Item Return Policy


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#41
Guest_TrixStar_
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I think that Chessy018 should sue Jagex over this.

the case would last about 10 seconds after the fact that she account shared was brought to light

#42
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Currently we do not return lost/stolen items. This is why it is so important to make sure your account is as secure as possible. Make sure you do the following;


Maybe Jagex would return items in the future? I think it would only make sense.


Easier to just not return items. Things can get too dispersed - hack, say, a P hat set, buy all the nex drops and all the spirit shields, the people who sold those go spend that money on all sorts of things....

Can easily get too complicated. Better to just not.


What? Stop right there.

http://www.runescape...orld_trading.ws
Jagex Rules & Conditions > RWT > Section 3

3. Isn't it up to me what I do with my items & account?

No, the terms and conditions state that your RuneScape character, account and items are, and remain, the property of Jagex.


While that section describes RWT, it also applies to any items in general. ANYTHING on your account (items, xp, time, ect..) belongs to Jagex. Just because you spend 100 hours of your personal time to buy items with other virtual items does not mean your "time" gives you rights to those items.

So the point is, the Hats were, and always are, property of Jagex and not the player. You are simply renting them. If a rented car is stolen, does the insurance company reimburse you for any damages to the car? No. They would reimburse the car company. In this scenario Jagex is both the insurance company and the car company. You (as the consumer) can't sue the insurance company for not giving you money for a rented car.. You are simply out of luck with the old car, and have to work to rent a new one.


Back atcha: Court Ruling in Runescape Case (Netherlands)
or perhaps you prefer some examples from British law: Terra Nova Blog

We are already seeing cases where the rule of law conflicts with the ToS. In those cases, law trumps ToS. In the current situation, Jagex removed the opportunity for law to run its course by deleting the stolen items before the rule of law had a chance to take its course.

Now of course, Jagex can just whip up a thousand hats if the legal process dictated it, so there is no real harm done (yet) in deleting the hats. But it’s folly to suggest that Jagex’ TOS protects them from ever having to do so.


I'd like to point out that your example case is a PLAYER of the game taking items from another PLAYER of the game. The boys who got sentenced were also breaking the GAME rules. So that example doesn't do anything towards determining what would happen in a case of player-owned in-game items vs all the property technically belonging to Jagex. Furthermore, Jagex is just doing what they've always historically done.

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#43
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Whoa, whoa.

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#44
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I'm surprised that everyone is so convinced that any EULA is the be-all end-all of the matter. You know that just because a company writes terms and conditions, that doesn't necessarily make them legal, right? Obviously from past court examples there would need to be an overwhelming argument from the player's side, since it's difficult to get a court to rule for an individual against a company, but it's certainly possible. Even if players agree to the terms, there are some contractual terms that cannot be legally agreed to, and get invalidated by courts.
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#45
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What? Stop right there.

http://www.runescape...orld_trading.ws
Jagex Rules & Conditions > RWT > Section 3

3. Isn't it up to me what I do with my items & account?

No, the terms and conditions state that your RuneScape character, account and items are, and remain, the property of Jagex.


While that section describes RWT, it also applies to any items in general. ANYTHING on your account (items, xp, time, ect..) belongs to Jagex. Just because you spend 100 hours of your personal time to buy items with other virtual items does not mean your "time" gives you rights to those items.

So the point is, the Hats were, and always are, property of Jagex and not the player. You are simply renting them. If a rented car is stolen, does the insurance company reimburse you for any damages to the car? No. They would reimburse the car company. In this scenario Jagex is both the insurance company and the car company. You (as the consumer) can't sue the insurance company for not giving you money for a rented car.. You are simply out of luck with the old car, and have to work to rent a new one.


Back atcha: Court Ruling in Runescape Case (Netherlands)
or perhaps you prefer some examples from British law: Terra Nova Blog

We are already seeing cases where the rule of law conflicts with the ToS. In those cases, law trumps ToS. In the current situation, Jagex removed the opportunity for law to run its course by deleting the stolen items before the rule of law had a chance to take its course.

Now of course, Jagex can just whip up a thousand hats if the legal process dictated it, so there is no real harm done (yet) in deleting the hats. But it’s folly to suggest that Jagex’ TOS protects them from ever having to do so.


The rule of law doesn't conflict with the terms of service because the terms of service are legally backed up. Jagex legally owns all property in the game and licenses accounts to players to use within rules Jagex has defined and creates punishments that break those rules and moderate the game as Jagex sees fit. The article you've cited is about a player stealing from another player, but those goods still belong to Jagex. It doesn't describe any legal action taken against Jagex themselves for not returning 'stolen' items. Secondly, Jagex can't return 'stolen' items because those items have always belonged to Jagex! It doesn't matter who's in possession of those items because all players are granted use of the game under predefined terms that Jagex can change at any time without notice that the player has already agreed to.

When a player agrees to those terms, they have also already forsaken any rights they have under the law to seek any legal action against Jagex. The player agrees to be subservient to Jagex in exchange for services that Jagex has invested time and capital into, which is the basis for all usage terms. To Jagex, those services have value because they invested time and capital and thus they have the right to charge for those services. Either way, the game is licensed because even in membership, the player is buying the privilege to access the additional content of the game, and Jagex can revoke those privileges at anytime. Whatever the player does on those licensed accounts is of no value to Jagex, only the account itself is of value to Jagex, hence why they are given ownership of it in the first place, and can do anything with what was done by the player on the account that Jagex has granted it to under their own terms.

There is absolutely no justification for Jagex to give the items back to the victim. What the law can do if Jagex hasn't done anything is to force the perpetrators to give the stolen goods back to the victim if it is so ruled by the courts. However, as Jagex is the legal owner and operator of their game, they are by default 'the law'. If Jagex has removed some 'stolen' items from the game, for example, it's assumed Jagex has operated reasonably because legally, those items belong to Jagex, and thus can do whatever they like with them because the player and Jagex are not on an equal basis of ownership terms. Jagex can easily take back the goods that were returned to the victim if they see fit to do so and don't have to worry about repercussions. The law can't do crap if Jagex has already done something as per their legal rights defined in the terms about the situation. No basis at all.

In short, Jagex is the sole owner of all property including accounts in the game. They grant terminable ownership to players for free or for a fee as they see fit. Because ownership is terminable, it's fallacious to assume that the player has any right to anything on the account. It's terminable, so the player has agreed to Jagex's game rules when using the account. The only thing of value to Jagex is the items on the account and the account itself. The time taken by the player to accumulate those items doesn't matter because even though the time is used by the player, the players are granted time-usage by Jagex. In other words, the players wouldn't even be able to invest time into the account if it weren't for Jagex. Yes, Jagex legally owns the time you use to level your account. If they didn't, they wouldn't be able to terminate service at any time for any reason. Time does not factor into this case at all as an argument against Jagex's TOS.

No basis.

I'm surprised that everyone is so convinced that any EULA is the be-all end-all of the matter. You know that just because a company writes terms and conditions, that doesn't necessarily make them legal, right? Obviously from past court examples there would need to be an overwhelming argument from the player's side, since it's difficult to get a court to rule for an individual against a company, but it's certainly possible. Even if players agree to the terms, there are some contractual terms that cannot be legally agreed to, and get invalidated by courts.


I'm sure Jagex has written their terms of service legally insofar as the law would see no problem with the items legally being in Jagex's absolute possession. Jagex has no obligation to offer compensation to players for time lost because that time to invest into accounts is granted by Jagex to the player. Technically, Jagex loses the time, not the player, because the accounts belong to it. That's all. I agree that there are contractual terms that cannot be agreed to, however Jagex being a legal entity has required the player to relinquish the right to sue as per usage so I fail to see how exactly an ownership dispute would see the light of day in the courts.

You seem to be sure that there are terms Jagex has already set that have, for some reason not been reviewed by law one way or another. What are these terms, and why do you feel that they have no legal basis?

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#46
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My WOW account was recently stolen. I only played for like 2 months a year ago, wasn't my favourite game I guess. So since I hadn't logged on, I have no idea how it was stolen. In the end it got banned for RWT, as far as I understand. During the account recovery process, Blizzard offered to return any stolen items multiple times, and told me ways to secure my computer. (Though I don't think any items were stolen anyways.) Thought this might relate to the discussion here. Obviously, Jagex knew what was stolen. It shouldn't have been that hard to return them, though that isn't their policy right now. I don't think they should go changing it for just one person just because she was rather famous. But maybe it's something they should consider in the future.

I've never had problems with my RS account being stolen or anything, but I was impressed with Blizzard's customer service. With Jagex's constant automated replies, automated bans, and everything else being automated, it sounds like we very rarely get a real person. Doesn't sound like something to be impressed about.
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#47
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I believe it might have something to do with the way Blizzard coded their game as opposed to Jagex.

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#48
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I believe it might have something to do with the quality of Blizzard customer support as opposed to Jagex.

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#49
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It's not hard to trump the 0 people on the customer service team at Jagex tbh.
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#50
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My WOW account was recently stolen. I only played for like 2 months a year ago, wasn't my favourite game I guess. So since I hadn't logged on, I have no idea how it was stolen. In the end it got banned for RWT, as far as I understand. During the account recovery process, Blizzard offered to return any stolen items multiple times, and told me ways to secure my computer. (Though I don't think any items were stolen anyways.) Thought this might relate to the discussion here. Obviously, Jagex knew what was stolen. It shouldn't have been that hard to return them, though that isn't their policy right now. I don't think they should go changing it for just one person just because she was rather famous. But maybe it's something they should consider in the future.

I've never had problems with my RS account being stolen or anything, but I was impressed with Blizzard's customer service. With Jagex's constant automated replies, automated bans, and everything else being automated, it sounds like we very rarely get a real person. Doesn't sound like something to be impressed about.


I agree that depending on the usefulness of this policy (read: cash opportunities), that Jagex may change their minds in the future about returning items to players. Jagex would rather keep players playing and paying by limiting game functions and substituting them, rather than have them lose interest by legalizing RWT or shutting down RuneScape because of their failed bot detection systems. And Jagex would rather re-introduce wilderness to bring back players and payers when their systems are strong enough to detect and ban more bots, rather than keep the populace dissatisfied and potentially lose membership.

Going along the same line of reasoning, I see no reason why Jagex shouldn't implement a return policy because victims of large theft will be disinterested to play further. Since paying players usually have far more in-game wealth [and perhaps real life wealth] than free to play members, Jagex best be interested to compensate these victims with their items rather than lose their members and thus their cash and source of income. Larger amount of theft, larger reason the victim has to not play. Player doesn't play, payer doesn't pay. One less pay, Jagex makes eight dollars fewer a month. Times this by about ten thousand and... yeah.

Jagex had all the stolen items removed so they obviously knew which ones were stolen by whom and from whom. They were also able to lock all the accounts that traded with the hijacked victim, so I don't understand what they mean by something akin to 'the process would be hard to carry out because a lot of people would send in fake requests for losses'.

I have very little coding knowledge, but for a company as experienced as Jagex in programming, I imagine it wouldn't be difficult for Jagex to whip-up a return policy based on an efficient check-spawn system.

It wouldn't be hard to verify "compensation requests", because you have the logs and you're able to see who dropped what or who traded with whom, and what computer logged into which account and any discrepancies in log-in locations and time zones. You'll easily judge who sent in a real request and who did not based on those and several other pieces of info. You'll have the info, so you'll be able to check the sent information by the alleged victim against your logs.

If you have a good enough program to do it, should literally be able to return a few hundred matches or negatives in a the span of a few seconds. And from those matches or negatives of list comparisons, you can automatically reject or accept those requests. And if those requests get accepted, the system should automatically spawn X amount of Y item that the victim said was stolen.

In other words, the system checks against a Jagex log to see if the requested items have really been stolen based on an algorithm. If they have, the system spawns X amount [the X would be filled in by the player] of Y item [the Y would also be filled in the compensation request].

The only problem I see so far is that these items could potentially be duped. The compensation requests would be legitimate, but depending on what was stolen from those accounts, could harm the economy if the player intends to sell those retrieved items on the market. However, if Jagex removes the stolen items from the perpetrators first, and compensates the victim after, than I see no reason why Jagex shouldn't implement the policy, because then there is no excess supply of items.

Thoughts?

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#51
ilovecuttingyews
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One of the major reasons that Jagex doesn't give back stolen goods is because it's so easy to fake it.
Log onto your account at a friends house
Transfer GP to a pure
Claim you were hacked
???
Profit!

In response to this particular instance; It's only fair that Jagex doesn't give her items back just because she's famous. There technicaly shouldn't be any economic damages to Jagex having destroyed the stolen items since they were already out of the economy and since the hacker's accounts were perm banned anyway.

#52
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Jagex removed 1k santas from the game. Of course there are economic implications.
 

#53
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In response to this particular instance; It's only fair that Jagex doesn't give her items back just because she's famous. There technicaly shouldn't be any economic damages to Jagex having destroyed the stolen items since they were already out of the economy and since the hacker's accounts were perm banned anyway.


But I wasn’t claiming that fame was the justification, and I haven’t noticed that anyone else is. No one is claiming special privileges here.

What we all seem to be saying is that Jagex had first-hand knowledge of what was taken and where it was; they just CBAed to fix it.

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#54
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I believe it might have something to do with the way Blizzard coded their game as opposed to Jagex.


Yeah I was thinking that too. But it seems like Jagex knew what was stolen. And I was overall just impressed with Blizzard's customer service.
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#55
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I completely agree with this. Their policy has always been "suck it up" if you get hacked. the only reason that they took the items in this case was to avoid massive economic disruption. Santas are still dropping though I think, so there's that... Supposedly shouldn't they be panic rising instead of faling since they just got rarer? Even though they were basically removed from the market already...

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#56
Yoko Kurama
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Chessy might have been a lot of things--but these apologists for scammimg "Uh, she got what she deserved", I find reprehensible and laced with jealousy. Grow up.

Aside from that, this just a sad affair--and I find Jagex's complete apathy to the plight of victims of scamming to be completely disgusting--regardless of whatever their policy has been for however long. I have played since the semi-early days of classic, and I was never fond of it--certainly not during the MA affair and certainly not now. Few other companies get away with this nonsense and crap. This is a case of schadenfreude--nothing else, since they can clearly return items if they choose to do so and with about as much ease if not less than it took to ban the perpetrators.

#57
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Jagex removed 1k santas from the game. Of course there are economic implications.


Not really. The victim was a hoarder. The Santas sat in her bank all the time, so either way, it's like Santas never existed on the market because they weren't a part of the supply. Santas were fluctuating all the time even when she had 1K Santas in her bank. Demand for Santas went up because she was hoarding them, thus restricting the supply. Demand for Santas will remain the same because having them removed is essentially the same as not trading that wealth at all, thus keeping the supply the same as before: restricted. Because of this, I would argue that the Santas being removed have a minimal affect on the economy.

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#58
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Jagex removed 1k santas from the game. Of course there are economic implications.


Not really. The victim was a hoarder. The Santas sat in her bank all the time, so either way, it's like Santas never existed on the market because they weren't a part of the supply. Santas were fluctuating all the time even when she had 1K Santas in her bank. Demand for Santas went up because she was hoarding them, thus restricting the supply. Demand for Santas will remain the same because having them removed is essentially the same as not trading that wealth at all, thus keeping the supply the same as before: restricted. Because of this, I would argue that the Santas being removed have a minimal affect on the economy.

All the idiots (and there are a lot of them) are panicking because they are too dumb to realize this. Once these [developmentally delayed]s come to their senses in a few days, the market will stabilize.
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#59
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Jagex removed 1k santas from the game. Of course there are economic implications.


Not really. The victim was a hoarder. The Santas sat in her bank all the time, so either way, it's like Santas never existed on the market because they weren't a part of the supply. Santas were fluctuating all the time even when she had 1K Santas in her bank. Demand for Santas went up because she was hoarding them, thus restricting the supply. Demand for Santas will remain the same because having them removed is essentially the same as not trading that wealth at all, thus keeping the supply the same as before: restricted. Because of this, I would argue that the Santas being removed have a minimal affect on the economy.

All the idiots (and there are a lot of them) are panicking because they are too dumb to realize this. Once these [developmentally delayed]s come to their senses in a few days, the market will stabilize.


Agreed. The market in actuality has the same levels of supply -- at least -- for Santas as it had before the victim's items were removed. The only real thing to fear for the market is panic trading which influences demand, as I outlined before in one of my earlier posts in this thread. It always seems to go back to not thinking the issue through enough. :P

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#60
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I'm confused, did she get her items back or not? :unsure:

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