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Libya Uprising thread


The Dark Lord

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I mentioned ancient history after you suggested that the Libyans were trying to find a meaning/identity which you assumed they lacked. Anyway, the influence of ancient history is directly relevant to about 500 years ago (renaissance) which in turn had an indirect effect on the workings of today's collective society.

Lack meaning to the individual not as a country. I live in the richland that is America and I don't feel if I die tomorrow I'm going to be remembered for something historic. I can't imagine people in Libya, with less money and opportunities than I, would feel satisfied.

"The cry of the poor is not always just, but if you never hear it you'll never know what justice is."

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I mentioned ancient history after you suggested that the Libyans were trying to find a meaning/identity which you assumed they lacked. Anyway, the influence of ancient history is directly relevant to about 500 years ago (renaissance) which in turn had an indirect effect on the workings of today's collective society.

Lack meaning to the individual not as a country. I live in the richland that is America and I don't feel if I die tomorrow I'm going to be remembered for something historic. I can't imagine people in Libya, with less money and opportunities than I, would feel satisfied.

 

I see what you mean. I'd rather the things I do leave a mark on society as opposed to being remembered by name and event.

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I would hope that the coalitions role is more of support rather than a full out occupation. That would make it a lot less resource intensive. Hopefully we will not have to commit ground troops too, and air support will suffice. If we do go in on ground, I hope & expect that it would be somewhat similar to the war in Kuwait.

RIP TET

 

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"That which does not kill us makes us stronger." - Friedrich Nietzsche

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From everything I read, we will end combat operations and assume a support role under this "political panel" that is forming. I can't see why Obama would just hand over control of the entire Sixth and Seventh Fleets, not to mention a Marine Expeditionary Unit, if anyone expects heavy fighting.

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If only more "rebels" practiced non-violent resistance...

 

 

Yesterday a number of people in Misrata decided to do just that. Wanna know what happened? 40 dead.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KfydO-Z-D0M&feature=player_embedded

 

 

 

Did you even bother to watch the BBC Panorama video I posted above? Seriously you're all starting to sound like a broken record player.

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If only more "rebels" practiced non-violent resistance...

 

 

Yesterday a number of people in Misrata decided to do just that. Wanna know what happened? 40 dead.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KfydO-Z-D0M&feature=player_embedded

 

 

 

Did you even bother to watch the BBC Panorama video I posted above? Seriously you're all starting to sound like a broken record player.

The rebels rejoice in killing Ghadafi's forces and Ghadafi's forces rejoice in killing rebels. Both sides justifying killing for fear of being killed themselves. What is the difference between men being killed while attempting to kill and men being killed while laying down their arms? In the former both sides lose, in the later one side shows more strength then the other and exposes the fear and fragility of the other side. There is no greater courage and strength then to fight without arms while the other side uses them.

 

Alas, maybe sometimes war has to occur but it is not a prideful thing like many of the rebels are going about it.

 

" The death of many should be greeted with great sorrow, and the victory celebration should honor those who have died."

99 Hunter - November 1st, 2008

99 Cooking -July 22nd, 2009

99 Firemaking - July 29th, 2010

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There is no greater courage and strength then to fight without arms while the other side uses them.

 

For 5 seconds, then you're a corpse along with your family. Sorry but you're delusional.

 

Alas, maybe sometimes war has to occur but it is not a prideful thing like many of the rebels are going about it.

 

They're not taking pride in the fact that they killed a human being, no they're happy that they stopped one more soldier who has no qualms about killing anyone for money.

 

This wont stop until Gadafii is dead; no matter what you think about how the world works he wont come down and sign Kumbaya.

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There is no greater courage and strength then to fight without arms while the other side uses them.

 

For 5 seconds, then you're a corpse along with your family. Sorry but you're delusional.

 

Alas, maybe sometimes war has to occur but it is not a prideful thing like many of the rebels are going about it.

 

They're not taking pride in the fact that they killed a human being, no they're happy that they stopped one more soldier who has no qualms about killing anyone for money.

 

This wont stop until Gadafii is dead; no matter what you think about how the world works he wont come down and sign Kumbaya.

Maybe in the short term it may seem like a bad idea. But in the long term a group of people refusing to kill is a much great message then a group of people killing and it has a better impact on the world as a whole. Either way, sometimes as a last resort war may need to occur...

 

And they are taking pride in that, just look at the videos, many of them want to kill people as much as the other side does.

99 Hunter - November 1st, 2008

99 Cooking -July 22nd, 2009

99 Firemaking - July 29th, 2010

99 Fletching - December 30th, 2010

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Maybe in the short term it may seem like a bad idea. But in the long term a group of people refusing to kill is a much great message then a group of people killing and it has a better impact on the world as a whole. Either way, sometimes as a last resort war may need to occur...

 

And they are taking pride in that, just look at the videos, many of them want to kill people as much as the other side does.

 

See your logic works when the dictator thinks logically, that, like in Egypt and Tunisia and probably Yemen too, if things started getting bad, they want an exit. Gadafii has no friends, he has no exit. He's like a cornered wounded animal that will savagely attack anyone and everyone. We're lucky he couldn't build a nuke or I swear he would've used it. He would do anything to stay in power because he has no where else to go.

 

His daughter, probably the one with least amount of blood on her hands, was denied permission to land in Malta. His sons wife, a Lebanese citizen, was turned away by her own country. She just recently tried, along with her husband Hannibal to cross into Tunisia, but were refused. No one wants them and so they'll do anything to survive.

 

Good news is the death count for his family is now 1. His son, Khamis, commander of a brutal brigade, was confirmed to have died from his severe burns on Sunday after a Libyan pilot purposely crashed his plane into Gadafiis compound a week ago. Both stories have only been reported by reputable Libyan opposition media groups and no mainstream media has bothered to mention it.

 

Now that pilot probably had his family held hostage and probably couldn't defect.

 

That pilot that crashed his bomber a few weeks ago had a Gaddafi loyalist behind him pointing a gun at him and thus couldn't land; he decided to eject rather than bomb his people.

 

Now is the fighter pilot courageous for crashing his plane and killing Khamis or should he have written a letter condemning Gadafii's actions and asking him to stop?

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^No, his killing of Khamis doesn't really demonstrate courage. Oppressive force can be ethically responded to by appropriate force, but the intent of a moral retaliation should not be to kill, death should only be a matter of collateral.

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^No, his killing of Khamis doesn't really demonstrate courage. Oppressive force can be ethically responded to by appropriate force, but the intent of a moral retaliation should not be to kill, death should only be a matter of collateral.

 

Appropriate force is relative.

 

In my, and the vast majority of Libyans, opinion killing Gadafii will be equivalent to cutting off the head of the snake. Libya is much more of a one family show then North Korea (which says a lot) as in NK you have a powerful military that can take power if need be. Same as what happened in Egypt. In Libya there is no 'government', there is him and his family. One of the Wikileaks even said that one of the guys who ran a Libyan state oil company considered resigning because Hannibal came up to him and asked for a flow of money from the company. Just like that. They've raped the country for 40 years and now everything they've built over the years comes crumbling down.

 

Killing his sons serves to weaken him in terms of morale and weakens his inner-circle as many of his sons command brigades currently involved in the slaughter.

 

Could you tell me what you would recommend the people do in Libya now? What is the appropriate force here in your opinion?

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We should be helping civilians escape from Libya, not attack it.

And go where and who's gonna pay?

"The cry of the poor is not always just, but if you never hear it you'll never know what justice is."

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And they are taking pride in that, just look at the videos, many of them want to kill people as much as the other side does.

Cite some sources that clearly show this.

A source is mankind, our nature. What's all this about sides? No matter how you look at it, the soldiers of both opposition and Libyan forces are people. They have families, they have loved ones. Sure, there are bad people, because conflict brings out scavengers and evil. You shouldn't blanket one side with "wrong" and the other with "right". I'm sure both sides are committing atrocities.

 

It's a shame something like this has to happen. A lot of bad will come. Hopefully there will be good come from it as well.

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We should be helping civilians escape from Libya, not attack it.

And go where and who's gonna pay?

 

I'm sure a solution could easily be found with the money that would otherwise be spent on the offensive.

 

Why should they be forced to escape? It is their country. They cannot democratically lead the country do the only solution is to use violence to overthrow whatever is causing the lack in democracy. That is a fact. They tried peaceful protests in Benghazi but the soldiers opened fire on them under instructions by Gaddafi's son.

 

The people of Libys want a free country, one where they can think what they want and one in which they are not oppressed. It is a plain fact that this can only be done now with violence against the oppressor. It is not the best soution which people would want but it is the only way. Gaddafi and his family are not going to relinquish power until they are dead.

 

Watching the BBC's Panorama program has made me even more supportive of intervention. It allows the people of Libya to choose their own fate and to stand a much more even fight against the oppressors. It is however still far from even. These are not soldiers, they are not trained in using the very limited amount of weapons they have available. They are like you and me, doctors, professionals, shop workers, students. Going up against proffessional soldiers trained in killing who have superior weapons and who have two choices, kill their fellow Libyans or be shot by their commanders for defecting.

 

 

One line in that Panorama that caught my attention was 'It was a suicide bomber that finally breached the walls'. Very rarely do I condone violence, especially suicide, but whoever did that was a brave person and a martyr. Without them, Benghazi may not have fallen and the rebellion may not have got off the ground. They didn't do it to kill people, to cause chaos and destruction, but to allow their fellow citizens the chance at freedom by blowing up a single wall.

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Maybe the primary objective for the westerners should be to help and take down/capture gaddafi? It seems like the fighting would slow down and ultimately cost less lives if him and his family are out of the picture...

99 Hunter - November 1st, 2008

99 Cooking -July 22nd, 2009

99 Firemaking - July 29th, 2010

99 Fletching - December 30th, 2010

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Maybe the primary objective for the westerners should be to help and take down/capture gaddafi? It seems like the fighting would slow down and ultimately cost less lives if him and his family are out of the picture...

 

Certainly would. Bunch of countries may be up in arms about it. Wouldn't be surprised if the Americans actually go ahead and do it under the pretense of hitting a military target.

 

 

Dan:

https://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=114350328640527

 

Also a new video came out from what seems to be some of the early days in Benghazi, thought I'd share it.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfGM3S8a7qU

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'nuff said

 

I'm watching that right now and I don't get your point at all. The guy wants to sound as if he knows what he's talking about but he is just clutching at straws which are not relevant to the situation.

 

1. Countries traded arms with Libya: Yes they did, as they do with almost all countries in the world. How though does this mean they shouldn't intervene?

2. Countries met with Gaddafi and traded economically: Again, we live in a globalised society where world leaders have to meet. Libya has a large oil supply which the rest of the world needs. While the country was at peace, the rest of the world had no choice but to trade with Libya

3. Leaders of countries leading the attacks are falling in polls: Firstly why the hell does that even matter? Secondly are you sure? I know Cameron wasn't overly popular in the UK a short while ago but I actually think his popularity has been slowly rising for a few months since the budget cuts.

 

 

I don't think 'nuff was said. The video was horrendously biased and, proven by the amount of view by all that guys videos, he doesn't know what he's talking about and isn't taken seriously.

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Dunno if I should start a new topic about this becaue it's a pretty big issue, but it's basically about Libya..

 

Crimes against humanity?? What about Gaza?? I think just as many, if not more, crimes against humanity have occured there. This is seriously screwed up double standards, Khadafi is 100% when he says this is modern day crusades.

 

Btw you should sign this petition, it's written by my mate, I'm pretty much just respewing it..

 

http://www.petitiononline.co.uk/petitio ... -gaza/2593

 

But it's completely accurate..

 

This is making me incredibly pissed off, the West thinks it can pick and choose who runs countries when it wants. As soon as their is a slightly valid reason we go in and kill a load of people with our technology. When Iran originally had a dictatorship we encouraged the Shah to fire on innocent, peaceful and unarmed protesters. If that were to happen in Iran now then we'd go in all guns blazing if we didn't think they might have nukes. Everyone thinks that that Ahmadinejad and Khadafi are completely mental (granted they seem pretty gone) but a lot of what they say about the West is true.

 

If there's a reason why the middle east hates us and terrorists exist, we're seeing it in motion.

 

How can we allow Israel to get away with such crimes, the rebels are in almost excactly the same shoes as the Palestinians. Palestinian's slowly lost land and rights, have no way of gaining it back or even (it seems) a way to change their country.

 

Seriously Israel bombed a cement factory?? They've used phosphorous as well.. Oh and not recognised a legitimately voted Government. Pah.

 

Admittedly it is different because there have been plenty of Palestinian attacks on Israel and it is also (kind of) a country on country issue, but still.

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Dunno if I should start a new topic about this becaue it's a pretty big issue, but it's basically about Libya..

 

Crimes against humanity?? What about Gaza?? I think just as many, if not more, crimes against humanity have occured there. This is seriously screwed up double standards, Khadafi is 100% when he says this is modern day crusades.

 

Btw you should sign this petition, it's written by my mate, I'm pretty much just respewing it..

 

http://www.petitiononline.co.uk/petitio ... -gaza/2593

 

But it's completely accurate, also what about Darfur?

 

This is making me incredibly pissed off, the West thinks it can pick and choose who runs countries when it wants. As soon as their is a slightly valid reason we go in and kill a load of people with our technology. When Iran originally had a dictatorship we encouraged the Shah to fire on innocent, peaceful and unarmed protesters. If that were to happen in Iran now then we'd go in all guns blazing if we didn't think they might have nukes. Everyone thinks that that Ahmadinejad and Khadafi are completely mental (granted they seem pretty gone) but a lot of what they say about the West is true.

 

If there's a reason why the middle east hates us and terrorists exist, we're seeing it in motion.

 

How can we allow Israel to get away with such crimes, the rebels are in almost excactly the same shoes as the Palestinians. Palestinian's slowly lost land and rights, have no way of gaining it back or even (it seems) a way to change their country.

 

Seriously Israel bombed a cement factory?? They've used phosphorous as well.. Oh and not recognised a legitimately voted Government. Pah.

 

Admittedly it is different because there have been plenty of Palestinian attacks on Israel and it is also (kind of) a country on country issue, but still.

I was going to write a long reply pointing out how wrong you are, but I don't feel it's a good use of my time.

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[hide]

Dunno if I should start a new topic about this becaue it's a pretty big issue, but it's basically about Libya..

 

Crimes against humanity?? What about Gaza?? I think just as many, if not more, crimes against humanity have occured there. This is seriously screwed up double standards, Khadafi is 100% when he says this is modern day crusades.

 

Btw you should sign this petition, it's written by my mate, I'm pretty much just respewing it..

 

http://www.petitiononline.co.uk/petitio ... -gaza/2593

But it's completely accurate, also what about Darfur?

 

This is making me incredibly pissed off, the West thinks it can pick and choose who runs countries when it wants. As soon as their is a slightly valid reason we go in and kill a load of people with our technology. When Iran originally had a dictatorship we encouraged the Shah to fire on innocent, peaceful and unarmed protesters. If that were to happen in Iran now then we'd go in all guns blazing if we didn't think they might have nukes. Everyone thinks that that Ahmadinejad and Khadafi are completely mental (granted they seem pretty gone) but a lot of what they say about the West is true.

 

If there's a reason why the middle east hates us and terrorists exist, we're seeing it in motion.

 

How can we allow Israel to get away with such crimes, the rebels are in almost excactly the same shoes as the Palestinians. Palestinian's slowly lost land and rights, have no way of gaining it back or even (it seems) a way to change their country.

 

Seriously Israel bombed a cement factory?? They've used phosphorous as well.. Oh and not recognised a legitimately voted Government. Pah.

 

Admittedly it is different because there have been plenty of Palestinian attacks on Israel and it is also (kind of) a country on country issue, but still.[/hide]

I was going to write a long reply pointing out how wrong you are, but I don't feel it's a good use of my time.

 

please do cos right now i think it's right and i'm pissed off :thumbdown:

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Ypu said it yourself at the end Freakyhair, it has not been one sided in Gaza and is a very complicated situation on it's own. It is a very messy situation, politically and socially which is why it is very hard for other countries to get involved in the same way. This is the reason topics like this on the internet turn out so hectic because people often do not realise that situations cannot be compared with different countries. They may seem the same superficially but they are two totally different situations.

 

Think about how bad the situation in Iraq has turned out in many people's view. If the West intervened in Gaza and Israel, the situation could be ten times worse with Israel having a very large army that is very well trained. It would not be viable for outside intervention unless Israel went for example, on a killing rampage, which unfortunately is what Gaddafi has done in Libya. However, in Libya, it is viable for the West to get involved as there is not much chance of them being dragged into a long and costly war.

 

You have to remember that right here, it was not the US that wanted to be involved the most, it was France which called for the UN resolution. However, it was also the Arab League which wanted the No fly zone, not the West.

 

Governments aren't picking and choosing who they want in charge of countries, but it is their right to pick and choose if theydo not get involved in a war or if they do.

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A very common misconception here is that the objective is to take down Gaddafi's government and impose a democratic government, a la Iraq. It is not. The objective is to render Gaddafi's regime toothless enough to be incapable of killing Libyan citizens. There is nothing 'Western' about objecting to mass murder of peaceful protesters, it was the Arab League who formally requested the no-fly zone over Libya, and a Libyan popular uprising that started threatening the Libyan government. The West didn't even have any part to play in how the Arab Spring started. To call them crusades is extremely inaccurate, if a little offensive.

 

It is inevitable that Gaddafi's government will be taken down by rebels, but what happens in that respect is the responsibility of the Libyan people. If it turns out to be really democratic, that's great but unlikely, if it turns out as a slightly more tolerant dictatorship that respects the right to protest, fine, that's not our business to deal with. In any case, I can't think of any possible sequence of events that can turn out a government that's worse than what they have now. The rebels simply wouldn't accept it.

 

As Cameron said, "This is not another Iraq".

~ W ~

 

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