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Limewire sued for $75 Trillion


The Observer

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Whenever you pirate, you take a potential sale from a producer/artist. When you have thousands of people pirating music, that's thousands of potential sales that have now been eradicated. It does not matter if you were personally never willing to buy the album, every person who does not own the music is a potential sale. By pirating, you are hurting the people who provide that music for you. There's plenty of free ways of listening to music without pirating, i.e. Pandora and Last.fm. Until the point that you own a physical copy of the song, it isn't pirating. I hate piracy, if only because the original artist doesn't get any profit from it. I like to support the artists I listen to, and am willing to pay for their music. While they only receive some of the profits from each album/song sold, it's better than the nothing that they will get from pirating.

 

 

EDIT: I agree with what Nadril said below. Changing Youtube to Pandora.

 

That being said, I would be spending upwards of $2,500 a year on CD's/shirts/concerts if I were to "support" ALL of the music I listened to. Likely more. I do support the bands I feel truly deserve it buy buying their material and bill-boarding their logo, but the best way to support any band in my opinion is to spread their music. What's the fastest way to spread music? Downloading? and to keep the deterrents down...why not make it free?

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I support the band. Not the record company.

"Let your anger be as a monkey in a piñata... hiding amongst the candy... hoping the kids don't break through with the stick." - Master Tang

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I still find it apalling that the record companies think THEIR entitled to something. 1) it isn't their music, and 2) they're charging too damn much for sound. Even if there were millions/billions of downloads, what gives them the right to charge that much? I say put a price of a penny a piece for each music piece downloaded on limewire, and the people who downloaded those things can pay for it, rather than limewire itself.

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Because when you provide someone with an investment, you expect a return from it. It's called business. If the record companies were earning less profit, they wouldn't invest in as many new bands. But since you've already been rather derogatory by calling music 'sounds', I guess you don't care about there being new bands.

 

Furthermore, how would you establish accountability? Say I use my nextdoor neighbour's unprotected router to download illegal copies of music. Not only have I already committed a crime in using his Internet access, I've also landed him with a nice fine since the IP address will be traced to his house, when in fact it was me who did it.

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Ginger, you still don't get it. Next you're gonna be saying that people should be charged when they hear every random thing. Truth be told, music is and will always just be sound, and sound will always be invisible, and if people are going to start putting price tags on invisible things, then I guess next people'll be charged for the air they breathe and the stuff they see too...

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Furthermore, how would you establish accountability? Say I use my nextdoor neighbour's unprotected router to download illegal copies of music. Not only have I already committed a crime in using his Internet access, I've also landed him with a nice fine since the IP address will be traced to his house, when in fact it was me who did it.

 

Most likely they will search in his computer for the downloaded files, and when they don't find them they will let him go. Don't think they would go as far as to doing a search on the neighbour's computer.

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Furthermore, how would you establish accountability? Say I use my nextdoor neighbour's unprotected router to download illegal copies of music. Not only have I already committed a crime in using his Internet access, I've also landed him with a nice fine since the IP address will be traced to his house, when in fact it was me who did it.

 

I don't think it's illegal to use your neighbours wireless connection if it is not protected. It is open to everyone, so why not use it? If they don't want people using it, they would protect it and cracking the password would what's illegal.

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I remember it being illegal to use utilities in the UK without billpayer's permission. I can't find anything better, but Yahoo UK seems to agree: http://uk.answers.ya...9063026AAjTNpa. I can't speak for other countries, obviously.

 

Most likely they will search in his computer for the downloaded files, and when they don't find them they will let him go. Don't think they would go as far as to doing a search on the neighbour's computer.

All that says is that it's on their computer. Doesn't say who downloaded it. Like if I knived someone with a blade given to me by someone else. Ownership wouldn't say anything there.

Edited by Ginger_Warrior
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What I don't get about pirates is the huge sense of entitlement that they have. So you're a college student and can't afford the prices of music/movies/games. What part of you makes you think that you deserve it for free?

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Like what I do, and what my friends do. I test out the product before buying it, so I can see if I really want it or not.

 

This. iTune's song preview does next to nothing as far as giving me an idea whether or not I want to buy the song.

 

It really pisses me the [bleep] off when I buy a song off iTunes and it turns out to be utter [cabbage].

 

What part of you makes you think that you deserve it for free?

 

STOP RIGHT THERE CRIMINAL SCUM!

SWAG

 

Mayn U wanna be like me but U can't be me cuz U ain't got ma swagga on.

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And to think, 3 million people could all share one cd and the record companies would be pissed off about the 2.9million who didn't buy the cd. Record companies are hippocrits, putting a price tag on something that's theoretically free...

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And to think, 3 million people could all share one cd and the record companies would be pissed off about the 2.9million who didn't buy the cd. Record companies are hippocrits, putting a price tag on something that's theoretically free...

The 2,999,999 people that listened to it did just that. They don't each get the CD for their own personal use. If any of those 2,999,999 people wanted to listen to it again on their own time then they'd have to buy the CD themselves.

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The 2.9million people though didn't actually buy the cd, but got to listen to it for free. In a way, they should then be charged by the record companies, because they got to hear it without actually buying it off them.

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those fat bastards won't get [cabbage] from Limewire. If they actually asked for a reasonable amount, then yes, but this makes them look like idiots. I'm just imagining a group of guys discussing this, when one guy stands up saying, "Let's go for 75 trillion guys! Who dares me?"

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those fat bastards won't get [cabbage] from Limewire. If they actually asked for a reasonable amount, then yes, but this makes them look like idiots. I'm just imagining a group of guys discussing this, when one guy stands up saying, "Let's go for 75 trillion guys! Who dares me?"

Guy at the other end of the table: "Do it, you won't!"

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Plagiarizing and copying music in this context don't mean the same, Jaffy. Plagiairism laws exist so people don't make a profit or claim ownership of other people's ideas. With piracy, none of these apply.

They aren't entirely the same, that's true. However, here are plenty of sites that do offer other people's music, tv shows and whatnot in return for payment. To avoid plagiarism you can credit a source a specific way, or in certain cases, buy the material. To avoid copyright infrigmentation you buy the music for your own personal use, or the right to play it (for example shops have to pay the owners of music to be allowed to play it when they are opened). The reason behind the rule may be slightly different, but that doesn't mean it is entirely different. In both cases the material belongs to someone else, and you have to pay for the right to play it, quote it, or own it in a sense.

 

You may not take away the original, but the owners have the right to claim a fee for your using it in both cases.

[/hide]

 

At No_M0re,

I don't mind you calling people "man", it just makes me feel odd since plenty of people seem to think there are no women on the internet. xD

Anyhow, I can assume you hereby admit to randomly sharing your opinion with made-up prices for songs and whatnot?

If your information is based on fact, finding credible sources isn't that hard, so for lack off it is safe to say you were not basing your claims on facts, but simply making things up?

 

You claim to have read every word I said, yet you repeat the same futile questions while I have already provided a proper answer, and you repeat flawed statements without any arguments or even hint at evidence to back them up. Don't go round in circles now, go on and show us that support for your claims.

 

Yeah I assumed you were a girl because of your avatar lol!

 

I do have a fair knowledge of the costs though because of watching my friends and like i said my best mate is an engineer, pretty good one at that. I'm making things up to an extent, it isn't exactly 5k£ to bring out a song, but it is definately around that with no manager/company involved. I would say, for a good songwriter, including the time spent writing the song. If you don't want to accept that is credible that's fine, I don't mind. It's not really but it's a fiarly good estimate, gives an idea.

 

Also I did read what you said, but it's all weird legal nonsense. I'm saying for my case how is it stealing? Surely you can see it's not really.

 

Oh well I guess we both have pretty strong opinions on this :ohnoes:

 

I don't have any evidence either because once again I'd say it's kind of self explanatory, or is it even possible to get evidence for my last post.

 

Basically I don't think that I personally am stealing.

^In other words, you are wrong.

Calling that source weird legal nonsense proves that much to be honest.

You're not the only one that claims it isn't stealing, but the simple fact that you're downloading illegally means that you are.

The source shows you perfectly that copying the original without taking it away is stealing, so please stop claiming you're not. xD

 

Also, what you're saying is not self explanetory, because if it were there wouldn't be room for opposite opinions, now would there? Backing up something that is self explanetory should be very simple.

 

If getting a song on the market is around 5.000 pounds including all the advertisement and whatnot, why do so many artists lack the money to do so? Getting 5K isn't that hard.. What is that based on? And even if, assuming every song costs 5K to create, do you honestly think that pirating that one song makes up for the creator's costs? Would you go to a concert to listen to one song? How much should an artist invest into a song, and how many songs should they create for you to steal before you pay to go to a gig? If stealing their music is "good", why must they spend so much money on creating music without expecting anything in return?

 

The fact that you think you know what you're talking about, or the fact that one random friend of yours may have hinted at that? I'm not going to claim I do know how much it costs, because I don't, but you made a statement about it, so I would like to see the validity of that.

 

Now I'm not sure what kind of person you are, but surely you enjoyed some education with regard to backing up statements, and were taught to think critically? And I'm sorry, but saying"I know a lot about this subject so I am right" simply doesn't cut it, because everyone can say that too, and if they did it still wouldn't be true.

 

Finally, to clarify part of the "weird legal nonsense" --> You claim copying the original is not stealing, then what is plagiarism again?

 

 

And to think, 3 million people could all share one cd and the record companies would be pissed off about the 2.9million who didn't buy the cd. Record companies are hippocrits, putting a price tag on something that's theoretically free...

That too is stealing, so you're suggesting you're as hypocritical as you claim record companies are?

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I love it how Jafje comes outa nowhere and answers my questions

Hehe now we know what real life does...drugs, drugs, more drugs. Thank god we are addicted to something that won't kill us.

[/hide]

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Plagiarizing and copying music in this context don't mean the same, Jaffy. Plagiairism laws exist so people don't make a profit or claim ownership of other people's ideas. With piracy, none of these apply.

They aren't entirely the same, that's true. However, here are plenty of sites that do offer other people's music, tv shows and whatnot in return for payment. To avoid plagiarism you can credit a source a specific way, or in certain cases, buy the material. To avoid copyright infrigmentation you buy the music for your own personal use, or the right to play it (for example shops have to pay the owners of music to be allowed to play it when they are opened). The reason behind the rule may be slightly different, but that doesn't mean it is entirely different. In both cases the material belongs to someone else, and you have to pay for the right to play it, quote it, or own it in a sense.

 

You may not take away the original, but the owners have the right to claim a fee for your using it in both cases.

[/hide]

 

At No_M0re,

I don't mind you calling people "man", it just makes me feel odd since plenty of people seem to think there are no women on the internet. xD

Anyhow, I can assume you hereby admit to randomly sharing your opinion with made-up prices for songs and whatnot?

If your information is based on fact, finding credible sources isn't that hard, so for lack off it is safe to say you were not basing your claims on facts, but simply making things up?

 

You claim to have read every word I said, yet you repeat the same futile questions while I have already provided a proper answer, and you repeat flawed statements without any arguments or even hint at evidence to back them up. Don't go round in circles now, go on and show us that support for your claims.

 

Yeah I assumed you were a girl because of your avatar lol!

 

I do have a fair knowledge of the costs though because of watching my friends and like i said my best mate is an engineer, pretty good one at that. I'm making things up to an extent, it isn't exactly 5k£ to bring out a song, but it is definately around that with no manager/company involved. I would say, for a good songwriter, including the time spent writing the song. If you don't want to accept that is credible that's fine, I don't mind. It's not really but it's a fiarly good estimate, gives an idea.

 

Also I did read what you said, but it's all weird legal nonsense. I'm saying for my case how is it stealing? Surely you can see it's not really.

 

Oh well I guess we both have pretty strong opinions on this :ohnoes:

 

I don't have any evidence either because once again I'd say it's kind of self explanatory, or is it even possible to get evidence for my last post.

 

Basically I don't think that I personally am stealing.

^In other words, you are wrong.

Calling that source weird legal nonsense proves that much to be honest.

You're not the only one that claims it isn't stealing, but the simple fact that you're downloading illegally means that you are.

The source shows you perfectly that copying the original without taking it away is stealing, so please stop claiming you're not. xD

 

Also, what you're saying is not self explanetory, because if it were there wouldn't be room for opposite opinions, now would there? Backing up something that is self explanetory should be very simple.

 

If getting a song on the market is around 5.000 pounds including all the advertisement and whatnot, why do so many artists lack the money to do so? Getting 5K isn't that hard.. What is that based on?

The fact that you think you know what you're talking about, or the fact that one random friend of yours may have hinted at that? I'm not going to claim I do know how much it costs, because I don't, but you made a statement about it, so I would like to see the validity of that. And even if, assuming every song costs 5K to create, do you honestly think that pirating that one song makes up for the creator's costs? Would you go to a concert to listen to one song? How much should an artist invest into a song, and how many songs should they create for you to steal before you pay to go to a gig?

 

 

Now I'm not sure what kind of person you are, but surely you enjoyed some education with regard to backing up statements, and were taught to think critically? And I'm sorry, but saying"I know a lot about this subject so I am right" simply doesn't cut it, because everyone can say that too, and if they did it still wouldn't be true.

 

Finally, to clarify part of the "weird legal nonsense" --> You claim copying the original is not stealing, then what is plagiarism again?

 

 

And to think, 3 million people could all share one cd and the record companies would be pissed off about the 2.9million who didn't buy the cd. Record companies are hippocrits, putting a price tag on something that's theoretically free...

That too is stealing, so you're suggesting you're as hypocritical as you claim record companies are?

 

Plagiarism I don't know much about, in my eyes though it should only be ilegal if people profit from it.

 

What I'm saying is is that in my case noone loses any money. I wouldn't have bought the CDs anyway and infact after hearing about the band I go see them.

 

I really don't understand how you can argue with that :(

 

Also I did say, advertising shouldn't be part of the coosts because msot good bands/musicians go viral on youtube now. Therefore it's free,

 

Granted most big bands still get loads of money spent on advertising, but I don't think the music industry should be like that, bands should get famous becasue people like them and share them with their friends.

 

Also I don't live in a world where I have to back everything up with facts and sources, my sources are in real life. There's no way I can link you to all of them.

 

I can't remember excactly how much it costs to hire an engineer and studio for 1 day, I think it's cheap..

 

Ok so I googled it, you can rent a studio AND an engineer for 180£. Assistants are usually interns and work for free. So that's 180£ apparently.. Granted that might not be amazing quality. But if it can cost 180£ then I'm sure I'm safe in saying that it's around 3k£ for one day with a good engineer. So 3k£, maybe you need a few session musicians, they're around 30-60£ an hour.. Usually you only need them for a few hours. So let's say you have 2 for 5 hours, that's 600£. Then you need someone to master, they can work cheap becauase there are too many. I can't easily find one on the internet but many places are saying around 500$ a track, so like 300£. So around 3900£ to have a song produced. Maybe you need a video but due to the large ammounts of amateur film makers you can usually get it done for free, or possibly around 1k. Once again I can;t back this up but I know it from experience.

 

http://www.londonmusicproductions.com/index.cfm?sid=32031&pid=490287

http://www.lnlrecording.com/FAQ/session_musicians.htm

 

Theres some links.

 

Can you believe me now?

 

Basically, whether I pirate or not it makes no difference. I wouldn't have bought the CD otherwise. Only difference is that if I pirate I hear it and share with my friends, if I don't I don't and my friends might not hear about them.

 

Please tell me how there is any leeway in the above statement. :pray:

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[hide]

Plagiarizing and copying music in this context don't mean the same, Jaffy. Plagiairism laws exist so people don't make a profit or claim ownership of other people's ideas. With piracy, none of these apply.

They aren't entirely the same, that's true. However, here are plenty of sites that do offer other people's music, tv shows and whatnot in return for payment. To avoid plagiarism you can credit a source a specific way, or in certain cases, buy the material. To avoid copyright infrigmentation you buy the music for your own personal use, or the right to play it (for example shops have to pay the owners of music to be allowed to play it when they are opened). The reason behind the rule may be slightly different, but that doesn't mean it is entirely different. In both cases the material belongs to someone else, and you have to pay for the right to play it, quote it, or own it in a sense.

 

You may not take away the original, but the owners have the right to claim a fee for your using it in both cases.

[/hide]

 

At No_M0re,

I don't mind you calling people "man", it just makes me feel odd since plenty of people seem to think there are no women on the internet. xD

Anyhow, I can assume you hereby admit to randomly sharing your opinion with made-up prices for songs and whatnot?

If your information is based on fact, finding credible sources isn't that hard, so for lack off it is safe to say you were not basing your claims on facts, but simply making things up?

 

You claim to have read every word I said, yet you repeat the same futile questions while I have already provided a proper answer, and you repeat flawed statements without any arguments or even hint at evidence to back them up. Don't go round in circles now, go on and show us that support for your claims.

 

Yeah I assumed you were a girl because of your avatar lol!

 

I do have a fair knowledge of the costs though because of watching my friends and like i said my best mate is an engineer, pretty good one at that. I'm making things up to an extent, it isn't exactly 5k£ to bring out a song, but it is definately around that with no manager/company involved. I would say, for a good songwriter, including the time spent writing the song. If you don't want to accept that is credible that's fine, I don't mind. It's not really but it's a fiarly good estimate, gives an idea.

 

Also I did read what you said, but it's all weird legal nonsense. I'm saying for my case how is it stealing? Surely you can see it's not really.

 

Oh well I guess we both have pretty strong opinions on this :ohnoes:

 

I don't have any evidence either because once again I'd say it's kind of self explanatory, or is it even possible to get evidence for my last post.

 

Basically I don't think that I personally am stealing.

^In other words, you are wrong.

Calling that source weird legal nonsense proves that much to be honest.

You're not the only one that claims it isn't stealing, but the simple fact that you're downloading illegally means that you are.

The source shows you perfectly that copying the original without taking it away is stealing, so please stop claiming you're not. xD

 

Also, what you're saying is not self explanetory, because if it were there wouldn't be room for opposite opinions, now would there? Backing up something that is self explanetory should be very simple.

 

If getting a song on the market is around 5.000 pounds including all the advertisement and whatnot, why do so many artists lack the money to do so? Getting 5K isn't that hard.. What is that based on?

The fact that you think you know what you're talking about, or the fact that one random friend of yours may have hinted at that? I'm not going to claim I do know how much it costs, because I don't, but you made a statement about it, so I would like to see the validity of that. And even if, assuming every song costs 5K to create, do you honestly think that pirating that one song makes up for the creator's costs? Would you go to a concert to listen to one song? How much should an artist invest into a song, and how many songs should they create for you to steal before you pay to go to a gig?

 

 

Now I'm not sure what kind of person you are, but surely you enjoyed some education with regard to backing up statements, and were taught to think critically? And I'm sorry, but saying"I know a lot about this subject so I am right" simply doesn't cut it, because everyone can say that too, and if they did it still wouldn't be true.

 

Finally, to clarify part of the "weird legal nonsense" --> You claim copying the original is not stealing, then what is plagiarism again?

 

 

And to think, 3 million people could all share one cd and the record companies would be pissed off about the 2.9million who didn't buy the cd. Record companies are hippocrits, putting a price tag on something that's theoretically free...

That too is stealing, so you're suggesting you're as hypocritical as you claim record companies are?

[/hide]

 

 

Plagiarism I don't know much about, in my eyes though it should only be ilegal if people profit from it.

 

I suggest you read the below again... and uh, how do you plagiarise without profitting off it in some way?

 

 

What I'm saying is is that in my case noone loses any money. I wouldn't have bought the CDs anyway and infact after hearing about the band I go see them.

Already proven that to be invalid.

 

 

I really don't understand how you can argue with that :(

Because what you are saying is incorrect, and you fail to answer any critical question to explain yourself.

 

 

Also I did say, advertising shouldn't be part of the coosts because msot good bands/musicians go viral on youtube now. Therefore it's free,

That is nonsense, and you know it.

 

 

Granted most big bands still get loads of money spent on advertising, but I don't think the music industry should be like that, bands should get famous becasue people like them and share them with their friends.

Believing something should be different doesn't make it different. That also doesn't justify theft.

And uh, how do people get to like bands without advertising? How do they get famous if no-one knows about them?

 

 

Also I don't live in a world where I have to back everything up with facts and sources, my sources are in real life. There's no way I can link you to all of them.

I'm not asking for a link to everything, but when you come up with "factual" claims that are made up for whatever reason I think it's reasonable to ask what they are based on.

 

 

I can't remember excactly how much it costs to hire an engineer and studio for 1 day, I think it's cheap..

 

Ok so I googled it, you can rent a studio AND an engineer for 180£. Assistants are usually interns and work for free. So that's 180£ apparently.. Granted that might not be amazing quality. But if it can cost 180£ then I'm sure I'm safe in saying that it's around 3k£ for one day with a good engineer. So 3k£, maybe you need a few session musicians, they're around 30-60£ an hour.. Usually you only need them for a few hours. So let's say you have 2 for 5 hours, that's 600£. Then you need someone to master, they can work cheap becauase there are too many. I can't easily find one on the internet but many places are saying around 500$ a track, so like 300£. So around 3900£ to have a song produced. Maybe you need a video but due to the large ammounts of amateur film makers you can usually get it done for free, or possibly around 1k. Once again I can;t back this up but I know it from experience.

 

Music videos for free mhm? I'm sure a random cheap camera and lacking choreography will go very far... And all you need is to spend money on an engineer and studio time?

 

I'm no expert, but I am sure that a lot more is required. You also said that advertising isn't necessary, so if I just randomly spent x thousand pounds on making a song, and then put it on YouTube, following your logic this would happen:

 

1. "Loads of people" will somehow see my random video with music, and download it for free.

2. I will get "loads" of fans because people will share my song a lot.

3. How on earth do I get a gig then?

4. When does the money come into the picture?

5. I end up facepalming at having lost x amount of money, but the bright side is that a bunch of people got my song for free, and like to listen to it at times?

 

It does make me wonder what kind of experience you have.. :rolleyes:

 

 

Basically, whether I pirate or not it makes no difference. I wouldn't have bought the CD otherwise. Only difference is that if I pirate I hear it and share with my friends, if I don't I don't and my friends might not hear about them.

 

Please tell me how there is any leeway in the above statement. :pray:

Even if that were true you would still have stolen the music. You didn't buy the right to have it, and therefore you should not have it. If you were intregued enough by something you would have bought it, or heard a song on the radio and then may have chosen to buy it. Even if you didn't, the fact that you take what does not belong to you means you cheat the creators. Shops pay owners of music to be allowed to play it to their customers, that's just the way it works. By having it, and playing it, you owe them the money they are entitled to by the simple fact that it is theirs. That is how they lose.

 

It does make a difference, because a huge amount of people pirate music (and movies/TV shows), and since that started the sales of music and movies went down by a significant amount.

^I've already explained that before as well.

 

Would you buy the DVDs to a movie or TV show if you've already pirated it?

Would you buy the CDs if you've already pirated the music?

ms_julie.png

jafjepediasig.jpg

 

 

angel2w.gif Tip.It Website Crew Leader

[hide=Quotes]

I love it how Jafje comes outa nowhere and answers my questions

Hehe now we know what real life does...drugs, drugs, more drugs. Thank god we are addicted to something that won't kill us.

[/hide]

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