Cheating in Runescape and the Bigger Picture

[Andy]

Fine, prove that theft is inherently wrong and not just because it's part of the law.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man :wall:

 

All_Is_Great-- you can't make comparisons like that. It just isn't logical.

 

Just proves how rediculous that question is, doesn't it? Same goes for Obt's question. I can agree with his "Prove cheating in a game leads to a less responsible adult, etc", but his last question just didn't make any sense at all.

He's saying that you only think botting is wrong because jagex made it against their rules. Is that simple enough?

[Vex]

Guys OP is Jesus

 

Welcome back bro

[muggiwhplar]

EDIT: It was not a comparison to equate botting with murder or theft, merely my way of saying "prove botting is inherently wrong" is... well, rediculous.

 

We know :P

[BioIce]

Quote from the developer of another game on botting:

 

Jae-Hyun Bae - Bots are a result of repetitive play. Bots happen because the player goes through boring repetitive gameplay and they don't feel like doing it. I assure you, Blade & Soul will never run out of content to make the players feel bored while they play.

 

Source - http://www.bladeandsouldojo.com/topic/1225-g%E2%98%85star-2010-blade-soul-qa/

 

The Koreans sure know plenty on bots.

[Estoc]

Thing is, Jagex really just makes up morality in runescape when it comes to botting. They could allow botting, and suddenly it becomes ok to use them, because you're not breaking any rules and just playing how Jagex designed the game to work.

 

For example, say I wanted to train prayer before offer x. I go and buy some bones and start altering, but my hand starts to hurt from all the clicking. I load up my bot program that uses bones on the altar for me. That's an illegal bot that allows me to outperform other players and gives me an advantage, because Jagex dictates that "1 click = 1 action". Now skip ahead a couple years, we can take a familiar and load it up with bones, go to an altar, and offer 50-60 bones with a few clicks. In my opinion, that's in no way comparable to the immorality of say, scamming someone out of their bank.

 

Bringing real life morality into it doesn't make much sense to me either. People cheating in rs means you go find something else to do if you so desire. People cheating in real life means you're out of a job, money or something else that you earned and that could have serious repercussions on the rest of your life. And unlike rs, sometimes you can't just "start over" when something is taken from you there.

[All_Is_Great]

EDIT: It was not a comparison to equate botting with murder or theft, merely my way of saying "prove botting is inherently wrong" is... well, rediculous.

 

We know :P

 

Good lol. :lol:

[Pluckey]

As my father once said: If you aren't cheating, you're not trying hard enough. (Not implying that I bot. ) But there are people that aren't as "moral-centric" as your strawman 'perfect world' seems to contain.

[Danqazmlp]

Cheating isn't a rule, cheating is the breaking of the rules.

 

The rules laid down by Jagex are there to give every player the same fair chance at playing the game as every other player. In a game world where every player can interact, these rules act very much like laws in the real world, stopping player A from impacting on Player B in a way that may be harmful to player B. We are only talking about Online games here as single player games have no impact on another person.

 

Now when Player A actively decides to cheat, they know full well that they are doing so. Thus they have stepped outside of the moral code Jagex have laid out.

 

 

 

Runescape in a way is a miniature version of life. Cheating in real life can have huge repercussions whereas in Runescape they can be smaller, but the effects are still there to the other players on the other side of the screens.

 

 

In terms of what you sign up to play, within jagex's rules is right, outside is wrong. That is an undeniable fact. Which means as soon as you cheat, you are in the wrong.

[Big_Stingman]

I seriously doubt that anyone here will ever change their opinion on the matter. It's almost pointless to try to refute other's *opinions*. I still have yet to see any hard facts showing correlation between botting and real life morals.

[BioIce]

 

Now when Player A actively decides to cheat, they know full well that they are doing so. Thus they have stepped outside of the moral code Jagex have laid out.

 

 

Then they will reap the consequences of their own actions - if Jagex had a care for enforcing it.

 

So, hypothetically, you wouldn't flinch and would accept if Jagex decided to combat the botting problem by releasing their own bot for certain skills all while modifying their rules to allow only their version bot as "moral" to use.

 

All I see about botting is that something very basic is broken in the game if bots are being used, and Jagex is unwilling to make any radical game changes along the lines of trade limits. (Which was an odd angle to approach the problem of botting on.) Yes, it is illegal, it is cheating, but you shouldn't be surprised that botting has become such a problem due to how repetitive - yes, that is the main problem - some things are in the game.

[TheAncient]

Now when Player A actively decides to cheat, they know full well that they are doing so. Thus they have stepped outside of the moral code Jagex have laid out.

 

Jagex says you must pay them $1000 IRL to be a legitimate player of RS.

 

Morals are determined by consensus and mutual benefit, not by an external organization.

 

Breaking laws is not inherently immoral. If you think so, you're very susceptible to brainwashing.

[mikeg0477]

I'm 100% anti-bot, but I don't think that botting make someone a bad person. They pay for a bot to use with a game that they (may) pay for. The argument that "I paid for it, I'll do what I want with it" is pretty strong.

The thing is though, I don't get the "it's just a game" argument. If you play chess against somebody, could your opponent use 3 queens? It's just a game...

[Big_Stingman]

I'm 100% anti-bot, but I don't think that botting make someone a bad person. They pay for a bot to use with a game that they (may) pay for. The argument that "I paid for it, I'll do what I want with it" is pretty strong.

The thing is though, I don't get the "it's just a game" argument. If you play chess against somebody, could your opponent use 3 queens? It's just a game...

 

You could. I doubt many people would play with that person though.

[BioIce]

I'm 100% anti-bot, but I don't think that botting make someone a bad person. They pay for a bot to use with a game that they (may) pay for. The argument that "I paid for it, I'll do what I want with it" is pretty strong.

The thing is though, I don't get the "it's just a game" argument. If you play chess against somebody, could your opponent use 3 queens? It's just a game...

 

Chess game != Mmorpg, chess is more like entering a contract between two people to agree to abide by the rules of the game. In a MMORPG there are way too many people for something like that to work 100%.

[Vex]

Well technically you enter a contract when you sign up to play Runescape.

 

I.e the TOS

 

HOWEVER, noone is disputing whether or not botting is legal within the realms of the game, fairly sure this topic is about the OP claiming the morailty behind deciding to break a rule in a game transcends and has a bearing on your real life and personality.

[Obtaurian]

Well technically you enter a contract when you sign up to play Runescape.

 

I.e the TOS

 

HOWEVER, noone is disputing whether or not botting is legal within the realms of the game, fairly sure this topic is about the OP claiming the morailty behind deciding to break a rule in a game transcends and has a bearing on your real life and personality.

 

i.e., botting in a game makes you a moral nihilist and a rapist.

[mikeg0477]

I'm 100% anti-bot, but I don't think that botting make someone a bad person. They pay for a bot to use with a game that they (may) pay for. The argument that "I paid for it, I'll do what I want with it" is pretty strong.

The thing is though, I don't get the "it's just a game" argument. If you play chess against somebody, could your opponent use 3 queens? It's just a game...

 

Chess game != Mmorpg, chess is more like entering a contract between two people to agree to abide by the rules of the game. In a MMORPG there are way too many people for something like that to work 100%.

Runescape is like entering a contract with Jagex to agree and abide by the rules as well. I understand the 100% compliance thing, but just because there are more people involved doesn't change the argument of "it's just a game".

[BioIce]

this topic is about the OP claiming the morailty behind deciding to break a rule in a game transcends and has a bearing on your real life and personality.

 

In which case, my answer would be a resounding, "Hell no!"

 

EDIT:

 

@Mike Mhm. It is just a game. You're here to have fun. Then again, if your idea of fun is a divine alignment vis a vis abiding by Jagex rules in your heart, then go ahead and knock yourself out. Be a paladin. I don't mind.

 

How can I answer like that? Because it's just a game. :D

[krimi]

When has the government pandered to the far-left in recent times? Sign me up.

[Tact]

Perhaps I should have been more clear with my analogy. It may not be the exact same people who defend botting and cheating on a test, but you understand what my point is. The arguments used to defend both are similar in basis.

 

And honestly Obtaurian, I expected better from you than to try and misrepresent me. I am not directly comparing botters and what you quaintly call "rapists and child molesters." What I am saying is that the attitude of people who accept botting as OK is the same attitude that attempts to justify cheating on other things. I don't know why people attempt to inflate the reasons I'm giving into something that sounds like a terrible sound bite:

 

Oh, so what you're saying is that your analogies are totally okay because they fall into the parameters that you set for this discussion. So as long as I compare botters to people cheating on exams rather than rapists, you'll take me seriously. :rolleyes: Sorry, but you don't get to set the bar; if you claim that botting is a reflection of deeper inherent immorality, you're going to have to accept that your argument includes comparing rape to botting. But this is all trivial considering you have yet to prove that there's a correlation between botting and morality.

 

How you choose to play the game reflects the types of values that you have.

 

Really? I enjoy killing stuff in Runescape. I must be a sociopathic killer in the real world! I mean, you've gone as far as to call botters rapists, so I guess it's okay to accuse slayers and monster hunters of killing people/animals IRL, right? But in all seriousness, I'll reiterate that you really need to step back and re-evaluate your reasons for playing this game. You're clearly not just playing it for fun if you place so much value on it that you'd accuse people of being morally bankrupt for . . . having a computer program . . . run laps for you . . . on a pixel agility course . . . ($*#QY%*Y$HUOQTH%JTJHYHRTyy45^^????????????????????????????????????).

 

Or do you seriously believe that people completely detach themselves and assume a new online persona while playing RS?

 

What? No, I expect people to have some [bleep]ing fun when playing a game. Is that such a difficult concept? Fun? Game?

No, there's a reason why my analogies are appropriate to this debate while yours aren't. You're committing your own fallacy here, reductio ad ridiculum, in trying to distort my argument into an extreme form that makes it hard to accept by the audience. Obviously no one thinks that just because you enjoy combat on Runescape that you must be sociopathic killer in real life, yet that's precisely what you suggest I believe. In the same vein, saying that if cheating on the test is allowed as an example, then so must the example of comparing botting to rape is false, because the two acts have completely different weights.

 

So far, I haven't seen you directly respond to my point, which is that botting is a symptom of a society that has become more accepting of different forms of cheating as long as you can get away with it. Instead, I've seen you try to misrepresent me and say that I believe botting is akin to raping a person, to distort the argument so that my arguments appear ludicrous to the point of dismissal.

 

Let me make it clear. I enjoy playing Runescape as a game. You think that just because I post a thread on how botting is immoral that I'm not having fun in this game?

[Big_Stingman]

So far, I haven't seen you directly respond to my point, which is that botting is a symptom of a society that has become more accepting of different forms of cheating as long as you can get away with it. Instead, I've seen you try to misrepresent me and say that I believe botting is akin to raping a person, to distort the argument so that my arguments appear ludicrous to the point of dismissal.

 

Is that your opinion? Or do you have facts to back up that claim?

[curtis95112]

Runescape is a Role-Playing Game.

 

If somebody decides to take on the role of a scammer, lurer, or botter, then so much the worse for Jagex. <sarcasm> That's emergent gameplay for you </sarcasm>.

 

While I won't bot, I wouldn't condemn those that do as morally bankrupt.

 

Think of 'honor' in the wilderness. They're a set of arbitrary rules set to make PvP more fun. Jagex rules are set to make Runescape more fun (debatable, I know lol).

 

Why do you consider Jagex rules a standard of absolute morality that can be extrapolated to the real world? Do you also consider honor to be like that?

 

What is the moral difference between these sets of rules? Are Jagex rules more important simply because the legislating body has the banhammer?

 

Finally, do you not realize that psych arguments without citations will fall flat every time? Have you put thought into this or did you just write what you thought 'must' be right? I'm guessing the latter. Authoritarian morality has a tendency to assume other people should and do think exactly the way they do.

[BioIce]

botting is a symptom of a society that has become more accepting of different forms of cheating as long as you can get away with it.

 

I disagree. Botting is a symptom of a portion of the community that has become tired of Jagex reluctant to address an important yet broken game mechanic: grinding.

 

Botting is not a symptom of a society derailing into immorality for the similar reason that online piracy is not stealing in the traditional meaning of the word.

[ilovecuttingyews]

Morals are determined by consensus and mutual benefit, not by an external organization.

People bot for personal gains. These personal gains cause harm to the rest of the players (stealing spots, lowering prices, etc). So bots benifit at the expense of legitimate players.

[FooK-A-Ji]

I am capable of seperating how I act and what I do in a computer game with how I act in real life.

Therefore, I find it rather silly to read, that moral inequity in a game automatically makes me a person of lesser moral in real life.

 

Your comparison actually says more about you, OP, than anybody.

 

Did you also forget the part where people use various computer games, forums etc as means of venting? In other words, if somebody spends 8-10 hours a day forcing themselves to be polite, courteous and helpful whilst doing their job, it might help them if they play Runescape to NOT be the same person they are IRL.

 

Thinking, you're doing it wrong.

 

 

 

And to adresse the topic of botting and comparing it to the current real life situation - wtf?

 

Botting is just humans when they are best - attempting to attain maximum gain at minimal expense.

 

I seriously LOL whenever someone tries to draw a parallel between anything in Runescape to a current global/national/economic situation.