Cheating

[Blyaunte]

I once cheat[ed] on Grand Theft Auto to get every weapon and trust me when I say my life did not change afterwards.

 

^THIS^ comment came from an earlier thread in the Runescape forums about "botting" and it's implications on morality -- and it got me to wondering:

 

Is cheating simply now so commonplace that it's become an "acceptable" part of any game?

 

:unsure:

[Danqazmlp]

Moved to VG&C

 

Cheating in a single player game harms nobody, and does nothing but harm your own personal experience of the game and how it was intended to be played.

 

I'm interested to see the comments 'around these parts' to the morality of cheating in an online game however, I suspect it will be vastly different to that found on the Runescape boards.

[stevepole]

I don't think it has become acceptable for any game, because it is still looked upon negatively by the majority.

[Blyaunte]

I'm not talking about just "Runescape" or the single player game I am talking about all/any game or sport. Cards, board games -- even athletics.

 

I am reminded of Bill Belichick's "stealing" the Jets' signals, for example or players juicing themselves with steroids or other similar things. These are all "cheats" of one kind or another.

 

When does cheating STOP being acceptable within a "game environment"?

[obfuscator]

Cheating is only acceptable if it doesn't negatively effect anyone else.

 

Cheating in a single player game is fine - in any multiplayer setting, it isn't. Unless of course, everyone agrees its acceptable, in which case it's really not cheating at all.

[Danqazmlp]

Cheating is always unacceptable within a competitive environment. Solitary games that offer no competition to other players are the only place cheating is allowed, but then the only person you are harming would be yourself.

 

If you cheat in an MMO, you will be looked down upon by the majority for having an unfair advantage.

If you cheat in an online FPS, you will be looked down on by the majority for having an unfair advantage.

If you cheat in a game of football, you will be looked down upon by the majority for having an unfair advantage.

If you cheat in a game of cards, you will be looked down upon by the majority for having an unfair advantage.

 

However

 

If you cheat in a single player FPS, you are only having an unfair advantage against AI and computer players therefore are only spoiling the game for yourself.

 

It is always morally and ethically wrong to cheat and gain an unfair advantage over other people in a competitive environment.

[Snowpelt]

Not this again, get ready for a flamming war...

But as for my opinion on this, I would never cheat on any multiplayer game, not an mmo or a game of cards. I wouldn't call cheats on singleplayer games 'cheating' unless your competing for a high score or something like that.

[foursideking]

For me, cheating is purely dependant on how good the game, to me, is. Cheating on games with good stories (ie: resident evil ones) tends to be a waste seeing as the story is usually worth playing/getting involved in. Cheating in bad games though (ie: pkmn diamond/pearl/platinum) seems ok to me, as the story isn't really that good, and there'd be no real consequences of speeding up to get to the ever-enjoyable 'post-game'.

[Pluckey]

For me, cheating is purely dependant on how good the game, to me, is. Cheating on games with good stories (ie: resident evil ones) tends to be a waste seeing as the story is usually worth playing/getting involved in. Cheating in bad games though (ie: pkmn diamond/pearl/platinum) seems ok to me, as the story isn't really that good, and there'd be no real consequences of speeding up to get to the ever-enjoyable 'post-game'.

 

 

This point to be exact.

[Giordano]

If anybody heating in single-player and calling it immoral they're pretty much blind to reality. A game is meant to be fun and if I change the variables to fit to my fun, then shut the hell up about legitimacy of the game.

 

A multiplayer game I understand a bit more, but I wouldn't call it totally immoral. It's a game, the most they'll get is pixels and such, why make a huge fuss over it? If gameplay becomes too unbearable due to the cheating, then the game developers are just messing up big time.

[Ginger_Warrior]

But as a legit breeder, 4SK, do you find it unfair when your PKMN get destroyed by someone who has basically hacked all theirs in minutes when you've taken day and days to make your team?

[Flodder450]

UP UP DOWN DOWN LEFT RIGHT LIEFT RIGHT B A START

 

:thumbup:

[foursideking]

Ginger, I'll answer your question with one of my own: let's say a game (ie: pkmn hg/ss) has all it's fun stuff stacked at the end. Should you be able to cheat to reach it? Or should you play through 12hours of boring storyline.

[Ginger_Warrior]

Oh, I don't care about people cheating the main story. It's a single player RPG after all so you're just ruining your own experience. I've also had other people hack Evo items for me. But when people are competing against each other (in post-game), surely it's a basic principle that each player should start at the same level on an even playing field?

[Overdoziz]

GTA is a lot more fun with cheats. After you've completed the storyline at least.

[Alg]

Oh, I don't care about people cheating the main story. It's a single player RPG after all so you're just ruining your own experience. I've also had other people hack Evo items for me. But when people are competing against each other (in post-game), surely it's a basic principle that each player should start at the same level on an even playing field?

That's why simulators like Pokemon Online exist. Everyone is on an even playing field.

 

It's hardly as fair ingame, the people that have a lot of time and luck to invest in breeding/EVs/TMs are going to crush the people that don't, as are the people that have the money to buy the next game with all of its upgrades (Bugfixes, move tutors; remember Bullet Punch Scizor?), and the people that can make it to events (Just bought Platinum and want Darkrai/Shaymin/Rotom-A? SUCKS FOR YOU! Also see: Every Japan-exclusive event). I'll freely admit to hacking to get a full Pokedex in Pearl, because they didn't release most of the events until Platinum, I have nobody to trade with and had nobody to trade with in the Advance generation, and the GTS is a cesspool. Hell, I'm cheating on HG because I want to run through the story in a way that would otherwise not be possible (All dragon egg group and only those, most of which aren't available until the endgame).

 

Though if you're talking about the guys that are hacking Wondertombs, legendaries with 255 EVs in everything, blatantly illegal movesets, then yeah, I have to agree. There are a good number of guys that just hack their otherwise completely legitimate and fair teams to save time, the same way they would have if they just stuck to a simulator.

[Ginger_Warrior]

Which begs the question: Why not just stick to a simulator?

 

Is there any need to hack Pokemon with perfect IV spreads and compete with people who don't have that luxury, when there's a totally free service that takes all of two minutes to download on the Internet that does the same thing?

 

I've seen some people say in relation to RuneScape that if a botter grinds his way up to 99 combat stats, and then competes in the Wilderness (or some other PvP situation) with someone who has gained those same stats legitimately, it's unfair because the botter hasn't "earned" them. Isn't that the same logic? There's nothing illegitimate about having Level 99, it's the method through which it is obtained that's questionable. Likewise with IV spreads and hacking, even if the IV spreads themselves are technically feasable according to the mechanisms of the game.

[Alg]

Would be two different styles of play. Someone who hacks himself a team could use it for ingame play, say, against the battle tower/frontier/subway/etc. A simulator is only good for metagame play against other people, with rules other than Nintendo's house rules.

 

Better example would be Runescape versus 'Scape private server, and even then there are different reasons to max in 'Scape, with the mass-multiplayer environment and all that. Could bot to 99 cooking, I get a pretty cape to show. Botting there is the means to get that, while the team I could hack in Pokemon will be used to actually play the game. Actually, the botting example does work for combat skills... :razz:

[Ginger_Warrior]

I'm just trying to think this through from a sports point of view since that's the arena that cheating has most to gain in terms of competitiveness. Now, it's obvious that people who take anabolic steroids are given bans, but this isn't necessarily with the aim to stop people gaining an unfair advantage. There are people who have been banned for taking steroids even because they took them for medicinal purposes (eg HGH deficiency) and didn't declare it.

 

With RuneScape, we're not talking about people hacking their stats to Level 200 or something, so we're not talking about motives, but we are talking about methods. Stopping people from gaining an advantage is one thing about cheating but it's also about trying to maintain a healthy spirit of competitiveness and it's also about rewarding hard work and training, and one way that that's achieved is by making sure the methods through which people 'train' are legitimate and fair on everyone else.

 

People may have their own opinions but I don't think hacking Pokemon is a good way of maintaining that spirit.

[SirHartlar]

I've only ever used cheats to enhance my own gameplay, never to hurt other peoples. Unlimited ammo and expensive cards on GTA IV is fine, getting outside the map on CoD is not.

[Aeon_]

Admittedly, most of us do try to get ahead of other people in anyway we can in games, but when people hack and cheat, it's basically a huge 'screw you' sign to the rest of us. Though to be quite fair, I do often use unfair tactics, but that isn't cheating, just using my initiative.

[ranqe]

if i finish a game i then use cheats in it.

 

i do like finding and using glitches in multiplayer and single player games though

[Alg]

Also how is cheating on a video game any different then having fictional illegal activities on a game, killing/stealing/etc? At the end of the day I hope that you realize that Runescape is just entertainment, a TV show that we all get to play a part in, it doesnt represent real behavior.

The cheating itself is real behavior though. If I kill someone in a game, that's part of the story that the game's staff wanted told, which tends to happen frequently because of how 80% of today's popular games involve the military (The remaining 20% is divided evenly between space marines, gangsters, and mercenaries). If a player cheats, that's their way of getting past some part of the gameplay, whether it's the realism or the balance.

 

The problem with cheating in a multiplayer game is that it takes the fun out of it for other players. Ever play a shooter game where there's one guy that's invincible and dropping everyone with a few bullets apiece in ways that shouldn't be possible? There's no point in playing a game like that, and it stops being fun after the guy headshots you through a wall with a grenade launcher. Likewise, it's not fun to play a game like Runescape when the goal you're working on is accomplished in a day by a guy who turns on his bot and goes to watch the Lord of the Rings trilogy, moreso if you have to compete for supplies against him with your inferior human reflexes and attention span.

[LinkOlaran]

Depends on the circumstance for me.

 

If I'm playing The Sims 2 (or 3) legitly, then I don't cheat, unless I encounter a glitch or something which I'll attempt to fix myself. If I'm just trying to build something, then I'll cheat to get the money and do whatever. The Sims is easy enough that you don't need to cheat, anyway.

 

With Minecraft, same deal. If I play legit, no cheating. If I'm building, I'll use INVedit to give myself the materials.

 

Multiplayer games, I won't cheat. Simple enough :P

[Danqazmlp]

Moved to VG&C

 

Cheating in a single player game harms nobody, and does nothing but harm your own personal experience of the game and how it was intended to be played.

 

I'm interested to see the comments 'around these parts' to the morality of cheating in an online game however, I suspect it will be vastly different to that found on the Runescape boards.

 

I am pretty against bots, and I am one who is pissed that Jagex hasnt taken more action against botters and this is my statement.

 

Cheating on a video game, multiplayer as it is does not mean anything for morality in real life. I repeat - ones morals dont matter in a virtual world outside normal social interaction (such as offensive language and threats and things in that nature). Cheating on runescape represents your morals as much as 200m thieving xp does.

 

Cheating on runescape can result in your account being banned but it does not represent real morals, for example if I was to bot on runescape would I be inclined to act in a less moral way offline? not likely.

 

I know this isnt directly what you said but this is in part response to you supporting the OP of the previous thread on this topic. I feel that anyone saying that runescape shows your morals (outside of social interactions such as offensive language/racism/threats/stealing from players *lures and scams*) that the burden of proof is on them.

 

Also how is cheating on a video game any different then having fictional illegal activities on a game, killing/stealing/etc? At the end of the day I hope that you realize that Runescape is just entertainment, a TV show that we all get to play a part in, it doesnt represent real behavior.

 

Cheating in an online game can be seen as a social interaction which you say, which means that it does show your morals.

 

There is a difference between something which happens in the confines of a game, such as killing x gangster, shooting x alien, buying x weapon, doing x race, and going outside of the confines of the game to cheat in it when competing against other players. Basically what mask said, it is real behaviour by a person. You aren't really killing things, but you are really cheating.