Efficiency Trolls

[Synthox]

I laugh hardcore at efficiency nerds. It's one of the reasons I even stay on this deteriorating forum community.

 

Also,

Yeahhhh.... I'd like to see the day an "efficiency clown" manages to answer a post without being rude, arogant, cocky or all of them at once.

:thumbup:

 

/facepalm

 

Insulting those of us who value doing things well and then insulting the entire community of these boards is probably a bad idea. Also, your comment contributes nothing to this topic and in fact is a perfect example of flaming/trolling. Hence your post has been reported.

Wont stop me from laughing at all of the efficiency trolls. I wasn't insulting the whole forum community either. I was insulting the people who think it is fun to come on here and tell everyone else on how to play a game.

Efficiency trolls are annoying. Except that both parties are trolls. Someone might be wondering the fastest money with skilling, and one of the efficiency people might come over and say, "screw what you think, green drags, it is the only way to make money"

 

Same with frost drags. Not everyone wants to get 85 dg (which is a high stat anyway) to go to a place that has a cannon in virtually every world.

 

At the same time, the people against efficiency are annoying as well, as they tend to post blatantly wrong information for the sole purpose of raising there post count.

 

Being efficient is good. Making it your whole runescape existence is bad. Unless you happen to like it. And how you could manage to like slaving over spreadsheets to find the way to get the most quite frankly meaningless pixels, is beyond me.

[L2Pullout]

Well slightly off topic is there a compilation website or someones profile where I can find the most efficent slayer lists, skills, spreadsheets, ect search didn't help me very much. I know it's in the 200m skills topic but I can't figure out which page.

[Crossed_Body]

(which is a high stat anyway)

Define: high.

[Naraku893]

The problem is not what I say, its how its interpretted. I am careful to never call someone stupid. I will however call their training methods stupid. A persons actions =/= the person. As to your example, the fact of the matter is you can't be more efficient with ectoing bones than altaring because of how efficiency is measured, namely cost:benefit ratio. The cost in additional time it takes to ecto the bones vs altaring them doesn't justify the money saved due to the higher exp/bone consumed.

Ow but it IS how you say it, I won't go into personal details, but there are so many ways to say things and most aren't good in a help and advice forum. Being arrogant & showing elitism is one of them.

 

I'm sure at some obsenely low income levels (100 k/hr or something like that) ectoing could be considered more efficient because the time saved altaring couldn't be used to make enough money to justify the additional cost. But for most players (anyone who can pick mort myre fungi/harvest white berry spawns...no wait that's everyone) this is not the case.

 

If fun is going to be a factor that is pulled in to the equation then there is no point in discussing the "efficiency" of the activity. At one point I found it fun to rush the KQ with flowers with 30 of my friends and see if we could kill her. We succeeded once (after dying 3 times each at least and rushing back) and it was way more fun than when we did it later in teams of four with verac's.

You still don't get it do you? :)

 

IF the fun means you can actually keep your attention to kq, and hence kill it (while with veracs you get so bored that you die from falling asleep) using flowers is more efficient FOR YOU!

I have some small RSI: I hence can't do many clicks (+ moving the mouse, the combination is what cause pain) a second.. Hence I can't do tormented demons in an efficient matter, and something like green dragons are more efficient money-making methods. A clown would be unable to grasp this, unable to tailor advice on the person and see that efficiency (apart from fun) isn't only determined by the ideal figure & lines, no ones is perfect and soemthings it is easier to approach the "perfect" line than with others.

 

They should all just realise that everybody plays for different reasons and leave the others alone, agreeing to disagree.

Isn't this, you know "general Discussion"? - What is a discussion worth when you just "agree to disagree", discussion spawn from the very fact there are disagreements, and you DON'T agree with each other. This is a prerequiste for discussion, and hence innovation. Discussion isn't something "bad", I can go into very heated (and interesting) discussions without any trolling flaming or personal attacks - it just requires maturity.

 

I agree that there are ways to give advice that are condescending and elitist. However responses that are concerned with efficiency are labeled as elitest, regardless of how they are said, by every poster who is more concerned with "fun".

 

And no, using flowers is not more efficient for anyone. It's just more fun for some people. Physical limitations such as your RSI don't change the fact that there is a more efficient way of doing things, and your inability to do them does not make something more efficient for you, it makes it more possible for you. To be clear efficiency is determined by cost/benefit ratio, not the individual's ability or lack there of to do it. Some levels of efficiency are not possible for some people due to said limitations, but it doesn't make efficiency a subjective thing. In otherwords, my inability to correctly flash piety due to my lack of timing does not change the fact that it is more efficient to flash piety.

 

edit

 

I laugh hardcore at efficiency nerds. It's one of the reasons I even stay on this deteriorating forum community.

 

Also,

Yeahhhh.... I'd like to see the day an "efficiency clown" manages to answer a post without being rude, arogant, cocky or all of them at once.

:thumbup:

 

/facepalm

 

Insulting those of us who value doing things well and then insulting the entire community of these boards is probably a bad idea. Also, your comment contributes nothing to this topic and in fact is a perfect example of flaming/trolling. Hence your post has been reported.

Wont stop me from laughing at all of the efficiency trolls. I wasn't insulting the whole forum community either. I was insulting the people who think it is fun to come on here and tell everyone else on how to play a game.

 

wut? how is calling the entire community deteriorating not an insult. And we don't come on here to tell people how to play the game, we tell them what the most efficient way to play the game is. They are free to do whatever they want.

 

Then why do I see an efficiency troll telling someone how to play every time i come on here? How come i always see someone post a picture on the RS picture thread and laughing at someone who is wearing "inefficient" gear? Thats sad. Go on the Post all screenshots thread, go to last page, and look a the first post. "hey guys lets laugh at this guy who probably doesn't post on tipit and laugh because he is playing the game differently than me." I think that speaks for itself.

[Noxx]

(which is a high stat anyway)

Define: high.

Would be to hard to define as i see 85 as kind of low, but a lvl 60 would see 85 as really high. So it depends on who, what, where.

[All_Is_Great]

1.3 - Flaming, Violence, Harassment & Pointless Vulgarity

 

 

Heated debates are allowed across the entire forum and we are more lenient when it comes to banter between users in the PvP forums only. However, we always draw the line at personal attacks. Unacceptable forms of flaming include intentionally posting false arguments, intentionally misquoting other users, posting flames or personal attacks for no other purpose than to incite a negative reaction, annoying others or disrupting a discussion. Posts that are disparaging toward any religion, race, nation, social status, gender, or sexual orientation are strictly forbidden. Debate opinions or challenge ideas, but do not insult the people behind them. User names (and profile information) may not be offensive, vulgar, profane, or abusive. It is also not our intention to limit the poster's option to use occasional curse words to demonstrate a point. However, pointless harassment or excessive or obscene cursing will be edited or deleted. We have a censor in place to disguise certain inappropriate words. Bypassing it with text, images or videos will cause your post to be edited, deleted, or more severe punishments for repeat offenders.

 

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I also want you to notice the bold and italicized part.

 

That is what bothers me about "efficiency clowns". You're definately right that calling such people names isn't right, but from what I've seen over the past few years, it really was the "efficiency clowns" who brought it up on themselves. I won't name anyone, but there was a thread about killing CaveSlimes in the General Guides section, and it got trolled very hard, with the OP being insulted countless times by the people you look up to. From that point on, I started to notice more and more trolling by "efficiency clowns".

And that's when I decided my stance on this situation. I'm not against efficiency by all means, but when these people have established themselves as [wagon], and even started trolling as a group of friends, I didn't really like it. I made some posts in the past couple years voicing my dislike towards "efficiency clowns", but I have toned myself down over the last while.

 

Another user was way more vocal, but since the group of "efficiency clowns" were a close group of friends, you can guess what happened. Troll comments carried on from one thread to another as soon as said user decided to post something. Granted, this user did post trollish comments about efficiency.

 

Some threads that has contributed majorly to this whole pro/anti efficiency "split", IMO, include the "Elitish view on crashing", and "CLS vs Rapier", etc.

For example, as soon as someone says CLS > Rapier for something like Bandos, he gets flamed to hell, like "if you think CLS > Rapier, you're [developmentally delayed]ed". The CLS vs Rapier thread soon degraded to "efficiency clowns" talking about penis sizes...

 

Just some of my observations.

 

So @ JacTise, don't act like the "efficiency clowns" are the victims. Because to be completely honest, they sort of started alot of this.

 

EDIT: I forgot to say that the 200m thread has alot of pro-efficiency players, and barring insults about nolifing, their advice and discussions are put forward in a much better way than some of the efficiency-trolls.

[pulli23]

Do I really have to explain here that efficiency is a personal "thing"? Guess I have:

Consider this, there are 2 methods to do something, both have equal cost per item (and one wants to do as many items an hour) - so we can neglect costs for this model:

 

METHOD 1 is slightly faster, allows upto a maximum of 3600 items an hour. METHOD 2 allows for 2400 items an hour.

Clearly in this simplistic case METHOD 1 is more efficient to use as METHOD 2.

 

Now we're going to increase the complexity, METHOD 1 requires 3 clicks, METHOD 2 requires 2 (still notice the maximum speed still induces that METHOD 1 has 1000 items etc). PERSON A is however not a robot, so he won't be able to be perfect. This imperfect results in not being able to "keep up" with more than 1 click every second.

Now 1 PERSON'S A case the limitations aren't only the MAXIMUM SPEED, but the limitation is also the speed of clicking: PERSON A isn't capable of instantly clicking and hence METHOD 1's speed will be reduced:

PERSON A can only create a MAX of 1200 items with METHOD 1. And he can create 1800 with METHOD 2.

 

Hey in this case METHOD 2 is more efficient!

 

We just saw that the "perfect" method is a very big simplification of reality, without adding all difficult things such account for fun & health we can already see that efficiency is different on a personal level, as each person has different constraints resulting into him not reaching the "perfect" method.

 

@litterbug:

Well looking at my post history should show you I spent most of my time not here :P. But at various other forums I often go into deep debates over certain methods, which is really fun and eye opening!

 

 

@Naraku893:

Well you should respect other people's funs.. Maybe it's distasteful to you.. But in such a thread you should just think: "let them have their laugh and we can continue". If it bothers you, just don't visit those things.

 

@All_Is_Great:

Well on the topic of the CLS vs rapier thing: the problem there is that discussion like these often tend to go into circles.. People refuse to read here (and I would really like to propose to make this a "banneable" offense) the backlog of the thread.. This causes an argument to pop up, argument is discussed (and conclusion made) > next arguments pops up > Then a new person comes, not wanting to read the backlog of 10 pages he brings up the first argument again > people go into discussions again > this continues to infinity.

This is one of the worst things that happen in public discussion boards and in more professional boards it is at least greatly frowned upon, and tried to be prevented.

[green9090]

A big misconception I see a lot is that people think EVERYONE needs to play efficiently ALL THE TIME.

 

That's not true. Nobody is going to get mad at you if you do something inefficient. There are two things we do think:

 

-If you post in H&A, you are asking for efficiency. You can't post asking for advice on the most fun way to do something. Nobody ever makes a thread asking "will I have more fun with a whip or a godsword," because the very question is meaningless. We can only tell you that a whip is OBJECTIVELY better, and if you still insist on using your godsword afterwards we're going to be annoyed that you posted asking which is better and then ignored all our replies we bothered to type out. If you want the most fun way to do something, you shouldn't be asking other players how to do it, because it's completely up to you to decide what you find fun.

 

-If you prefer a method because you find it more fun even though it has no objective benefit, you shouldn't be posting it in H&A. That's trolling. The OP is asking for help on which way is best (see the previous point), and you are trying to convince them that a method that is not best is better than the best method. THIS will make me flame you, because you are actively hurting people with your inefficiency. Examples of this are people who will tell you to get Bandos before fury, chop yews/bank gold/do something else stupid for money, use a DFS for slayer, get a CLS instead of a rapier, etc. While you personally are free to do any of these things, they are still objectively inferior options that you have no business telling other people to use unless they specifically ask for a bad way to do something. Don't present a stupid method as a good one, or you's trollin'.

[All_Is_Great]

But what you can do is not call other users a moron or [developmentally delayed] for posting different advice.

 

For example, if someone uses an SGS, they are not a moron. If someone doesn't want to spend 15m for a fury, they are not [developmentally delayed]ed.

[green9090]

Of course not, but if they suggest their ideas to somebody seeking good advice, they are trolling.

[Kimberly]

This thread will be locked soon probably. I am better off finding discussion on the RSOF.

 

Have you seen the RS pic thread recently? There are people that actually take a screenshot of someone who is wearing something in game and post it on here and laugh at them saying how stupid it is to wear that gear at that place ect.

 

So why not report it? You're not supposed to name users in a negative light, and it's against the spirit of the community to be derogatory to other people. Wouldn't something like that be removed?

[All_Is_Great]

That I disagree with.

 

What I'm saying is if someone suggests something that isn't the most efficient, they are not a moron, or mentally handicapped. They are merely TRYING to help. Unless a person has a track record of these posts, I don't think it's fair to just start jumping on them and flaming them to no end, which I've seen on more than a couple situations in H&A.

 

You can suggest your more efficient method without putting down another person. And you can do it without adding witty sarcastic comments at the end of a post.

 

This thread will be locked soon probably. I am better off finding discussion on the RSOF.

 

Have you seen the RS pic thread recently? There are people that actually take a screenshot of someone who is wearing something in game and post it on here and laugh at them saying how stupid it is to wear that gear at that place ect.

 

So why not report it? You're not supposed to name users in a negative light, and it's against the spirit of the community to be derogatory to other people. Wouldn't something like that be removed?

 

I remember that there was a thread specifically for that, and it was locked. Laughing at ways other people play the game is probably my primary reason for being against "efficiency clowns".

[Crossed_Body]

Would be to hard to define as i see 85 as kind of low, but a lvl 60 would see 85 as really high. So it depends on who, what, where.

Exactly. High is subjective, no need to bring it up.

[TheAncient]

Most of the people in this thread don't know what troll means

Were curt because were tired of dealing with stupidity. Sometimes the opposite side isn't stupid but our annoyance from other arguments carry over

 

If you're a doctor trying to save a life and a lifeguard kicks you out to do CPR on a patient, wouldn't you be pissed at the lifeguard?

[Soma2035]

Of course not, but if they suggest their ideas to somebody seeking good advice, they are trolling.

 

Not necessarily. Trolling is posting with an intent to bait others into responding in an emotional manner. Sometimes, they're just giving genuinely bad advice. They're not trying to annoy or infuriate other people, they just aren't knowledgeable about the subject matter.

[Crossed_Body]

A big misconception I see a lot is that people think EVERYONE needs to play efficiently ALL THE TIME.

 

That's not true. Nobody is going to get mad at you if you do something inefficient. There are two things we do think:

 

-If you post in H&A, you are asking for efficiency. You can't post asking for advice on the most fun way to do something. Nobody ever makes a thread asking "will I have more fun with a whip or a godsword," because the very question is meaningless. We can only tell you that a whip is OBJECTIVELY better, and if you still insist on using your godsword afterwards we're going to be annoyed that you posted asking which is better and then ignored all our replies we bothered to type out. If you want the most fun way to do something, you shouldn't be asking other players how to do it, because it's completely up to you to decide what you find fun.

 

-If you prefer a method because you find it more fun even though it has no objective benefit, you shouldn't be posting it in H&A. That's trolling. The OP is asking for help on which way is best (see the previous point), and you are trying to convince them that a method that is not best is better than the best method. THIS will make me flame you, because you are actively hurting people with your inefficiency. Examples of this are people who will tell you to get Bandos before fury, chop yews/bank gold/do something else stupid for money, use a DFS for slayer, get a CLS instead of a rapier, etc. While you personally are free to do any of these things, they are still objectively inferior options that you have no business telling other people to use unless they specifically ask for a bad way to do something. Don't present a stupid method as a good one, or you's trollin'.

 

This. Just pin this post and lock the thread, nothing more can be discussed about this issue in particular.

[green9090]

@All_Is_Great: I can't speak for other posters, but I personally have no problem correcting a mistaken view, and I'm not mean about it. However, if somebody starts arguing with me telling me, for example, why it's stupid to buy a fury for that much when you don't have Bandos, it's on. They're not only wrong, but they're wrong in a way that, if I don't fight back, might convince the OP to take their stupid advice.

 

It's not so much the posting of inefficiency as it is the vehement defense of said inefficiency. That's where it stops being an innocent mistake.

[Kimberly]

Most of the people in this thread don't know what troll means

Were curt because were tired of dealing with stupidity.

 

That makes me wonder if people felt that way why they even bother to help at all. It must get annoying seeing the same questions over and over, or someone obstinately saying their methods are correct when obviously wrong, but there's no need to pay them any heed.

[Levon_]

Here's how I see it.

 

People who post in Help and Advice are looking for... Help and advice. They deserve the most efficent help and advice. If you are asking for help, its because you want to know how to do something the best way, right?

 

My view on efficency is this, why train for 2 hours to get something when you could just as easily get it in 1 hour? If you find sitting in front of a computer for extra time fun, then okay do it. But that doesn't mean its still not a stupid thing to do.

 

I never flame people or call them out for saying that they have the most fun doing something inefficiently. But I do flame their opinions of it being a better thing to do, because it IS NOT a better thing to do. Better is not the same as more fun. It is a FACT that doing something the fastest way is better. You cannot have opinions on facts.

 

For example, someone says they find training slayer with a whip and dfs and no prayer more fun than using a defender and piety. Okay thats fine, I still think you're an idiot for thinking that but its your opinion. HOWEVER when someone says its BETTER than there is something wrong.

 

I think thats all I have to say..

 

Also posting in here is inefficient so don't do it

[Th e Doctor]

At pulli, again you have the definition of efficiency wrong. A persons inability to use the most efficient methods does not mean that the methods they can do are the most efficient. Classic example is brett favres throwing mechanic. Nothing about it is proper in terms of efficient movement from a sports performance stand point, but he saw great success with it (and had fun), he would however been even better had he been trained to throw correctly.

 

But what you can do is not call other users a moron or [developmentally delayed] for posting different advice.

 

For example, if someone uses an SGS, they are not a moron. If someone doesn't want to spend 15m for a fury, they are not [developmentally delayed]ed.

 

We arent calling them a moron, if someone wants to use an SGS that's their choice. If they want to believe that there arent better cheaper alternatives for spec weapons, healing, and doing the most damage that makes them wrong. If someone doesn't want to use a fury because of the pricetag again that is their choice. If they want to prioritze which upgrades are worth getting in order and they get bandos tassets before a fury then they made the wrong choice.

 

Again someones choices =/= the person. Just because you're making a choice that isn't smart and we tell you so doesn't mean we are calling you dumb. It means you are either A) misinformed/underinformed or B) you don't care.

[Gravy]

What if it's fun and efficient?

[TheAncient]

Most of the people in this thread don't know what troll means

Were curt because were tired of dealing with stupidity.

 

That makes me wonder if people felt that way why they even bother to help at all. It must get annoying seeing the same questions over and over, or someone obstinately saying their methods are correct when obviously wrong, but there's no need to pay them any heed.

Because we genuinely like improving things and helping other people get better.

 

Tip it moderations lack of support on the matter have made me and others give serious thought in leaving tip it.

[Th e Doctor]

What if it's fun and efficient?

 

Then do it, you have the best of both worlds.

 

@levon, minor quibling here but fastest =/= most efficient. Creating demon thrones would in theory be great exp/hr for construction, but the cost:benefit ratio is rediculously low and thus inefficient.

 

Edit

 

My goal for this dicussion is for both sides to understand each other so that we can avoid these stupid conflicts. Meaning hopefully once it is understood that we are striving for efficiency for the purpose of helping people that we wont be insulted for telling people how to utilize what we've learned. So we can avoid appearing to insult peoples intelligence and they can cease seeing us as elitist jerks. We all play this game for fun, and playing efficiently can either be fun or save you time so you can spend it doing things that are fun.

[green9090]

What if it's fun and efficient?

 

Then do it, you have the best of both worlds.

 

@levon, minor quibling here but fastest =/= most efficient. Creating demon thrones would in theory be great exp/hr for construction, but the cost:benefit ratio is rediculously low and thus inefficient.

Well, when it comes down to it, it is fastest = most efficient. You just have to take into account the time taken to get the money as well as the time spent training. </minor quibling>

[Danqazmlp]

First off, Trolling is NOT posting wrong information/bad ideas. Please can people stop labelling that as trolling. Trolling is more in line with flamebaiting, posting something wrong with the intention of it having a negative impact.

 

 

 

I don't get where help & advice transitioned into help with efficiency.

 

Posting in H&A isn't asking for the most efficient methods unless they are asked for in some way. Best way, better, tip on doing, help and other terms are all subjective. When discussing a topic, efficiency and fun have to be considered. If somebody suggests a method of doing something which they find fun, why on earth shouldn't they suggest it? There could be a chance the other person would find it fun. A topic creator deserves a wide range of advice, not just advice which is efficient. By all means post them your idea of the most efficient way, it may help them, but it also may not as they may find it boring.