Efficiency Trolls

[green9090]

^Everything wrong with TIF moderation summed up in one convenient post.

[Crossed_Body]

If somebody suggests a method of doing something which they find fun, why on earth shouldn't they suggest it?

Because fun is subjective, and only the original poster knows what he finds fun, so there is no use for other people share their OPINIONS.

Help and advice should be an objective place. The only tips needed are how to do something efficiently.

Or should I just go post "Kill cows and sell their meat on the GE, it's very fun!" on every thread asking how to make money?

[Danqazmlp]

^Everything wrong with TIF moderation summed up in one convenient post.

 

So, people being able to give and receive a wide range of advice catering to different people is a bad thing?

 

Or do you mean that a moderator is not allowed to have a personal opinion?

 

Edit:

 

 

If somebody suggests a method of doing something which they find fun, why on earth shouldn't they suggest it?

Because fun is subjective, and only the original poster knows what he finds fun, so there is no use for other people share their OPINIONS.

Help and advice should be an objective place. The only tips needed are how to do something efficiently.

Or should I just go post "Kill cows and sell their meat on the GE, it's very fun!" on every thread asking how to make money?

 

But what if the OP doesn't know of a certain thing which somebody is suggesting? Why suggest anything at all if only the OP knows what they want to do?

[green9090]

It's more that your personal bias is influencing you to endorse trolling H&A in an official capacity.

 

Posting CLS IS FUN BCUZ IT HITS HARDER THAN BEIBER RAPIER SO GET THAT LOL RAPIER IS DUM is trolling. So is telling somebody to get Bandos because it looks good, or DFS for the extra defense you need so much on slayer tasks.

[Danqazmlp]

It's more that your personal bias is influencing you to endorse trolling H&A in an official capacity.

 

Posting CLS IS FUN BCUZ IT HITS HARDER THAN BEIBER RAPIER SO GET THAT LOL RAPIER IS DUM is trolling. So is telling somebody to get Bandos because it looks good, or DFS for the extra defense you need so much on slayer tasks.

 

No, it isn't Trolling isn't posting your opinion, even if it is wrong or not incredibly helpful. You are welcome to do a google search yourself to find as many definitions as you want. Unless the person is posting the information with the knowledge it won't help and to incite negative reactions, they are not trolling.

 

It's the same with Cursed_body's killing cows thing. If a person posts that thinking it is a good way (even though it isn't they may think it is) it isn't trolling. Now if they knew it was a bad way but still posted it, then it would be trolling.

[Range_This11]

I think H&A should be a place for all opinions to be expressed; where the OP chooses which method fits him or her best. I don't know why people see the need to force their method on someone else. H&A shouldn't be for extended debate--offer your opinion and leave it at that.

[Kimberly]

The only tips needed are how to do something efficiently.

 

I completely disagree. The only tips needed are those specified by the topic creator, like "I don't want too much of a grind, I want to train via minigame, I want the most profit". All suggestions should be in line with what they want. Mind you though if the TC is vague in asking about what he wants then people should be free to post whatever they want, and will typically post what is most commonly desired: and that is speed. Efficiency. Whatever.

 

To go into a H&A thread with such a dogmatic views is downright irresponsible for someone claiming to want to help people.

 

EDIT: Of course if you go into a thread that specificly mentions what they want, yet explain to them (politely) alternatives and the pros & cons of what they desire against their methods, then that seems perfectly fine too. It's all too grey to define in one single post, which is probably why so many threads get out of hand. I DUNNO LOLSZ@#!

[green9090]

@Danq: And that opinion right there makes trying to use H&A for actual help pointless, because anybody can tell you to do whatever they want and be immune from being called out on it. You are basically saying you want H&A to be a useless forum.

 

Wooo moderation team! <3 you guys.

[Dragonlordjl]

It's more that your personal bias is influencing you to endorse trolling H&A in an official capacity.

 

Posting CLS IS FUN BCUZ IT HITS HARDER THAN BEIBER RAPIER SO GET THAT LOL RAPIER IS DUM is trolling. So is telling somebody to get Bandos because it looks good, or DFS for the extra defense you need so much on slayer tasks.

I actually have to agree with the mod on this one. Telling someone misinformation isn't the same as trolling; you can be dumb without necessarily being a troll.

[Kimberly]

Why does it have to be a matter of 'calling someone out'? Unless someone is insisting that their way is the only way, and this goes for both sides of the spectrum, why can't they all be listed on the virtues of their pros and cons? Because that is truly helpful, and gives the TC the independence to choose for themselves what best fits their playing style.

[Ginger_Warrior]

This thread is completely frustrating to read.

 

Advice giving isn't about tell someone what to do, it's about empowering them with the information and the skills needed to make their own, informed decision relevent to their own wants and values, and the circumstances they find themselves in. An appeal for advice in the form of a thread on the H&A forum, or a post in the OT board's relevent thread is not a request for someone else to 'call the shots'.

[green9090]

Why does it have to be a matter of 'calling someone out'? Unless someone is insisting that their way is the only way, and this goes for both sides of the spectrum, why can't they all be listed on the virtues of their pros and cons? Because that is truly helpful, and gives the TC the independence to choose for themselves what best fits their playing style.

If there are pros and cons, then there's a discussion to be had. I'm talking about suggestions without pros. For example, let's take a player asking the best way to train from 95-99 fishing. The best way exp/hour-wise is to do c2 ice floors in dungeoneering, dropping all the fish with mousekeys. If they don't want something so APM-intensive, they can sit back and watch a movie while fishing rocktails. An argument could even be made for barbarian heavy rod fishing if they value agility exp very highly. These are ALL acceptable responses. What OP shouldn't have to deal with is somebody telling him to fish sharks for all that sweet cash. Sharks are objectively worse than another option (rocktails) in literally every way- they are less afk, the spots move more, you have to bank more often, they have markedly less exp/hour, and they make less money/hour. Suggesting shark fishing is flamebait and unhelpful. That sort of response is trolling and should be dealt with accordingly.

[Sir_Squab]

Why not just create some topic to hold all the damned efficiency stuff and be done with it. Ugh.

 

No offense to efficiency people, this constant clashing is what really gets on my nerves.

 

How about this. New rule. Every time you reply to a H&A topic, you must state whether the advice you are posting is coming from the standpoint of what's the most efficient or the standpoint of something that is fun. Bad advice posts from the efficiency side get deleted, and efficiency posts coming from the "fun" side get deleted.

 

Omg problem solved. Onto world peace.

 

Lol, life isn't that simple, but still.

 

I mean, on the one hand I understand that people should be able to post different sorts of advice trying to tailor to the individual posters wants and that we shouldn't have efficiency "clowns" everywhere saying "OMFG DON'T DO THAT OR I'LL HUNT YOU DOWN AND KILL YOU BECAUSE THAT'S INEFFICIENT" but on the other hand, we don't need someone saying "OMFG GO GET A CLS AND KILL COWS FOR MONEY BECAUSE IT IS* FUN DURR"

 

*Translation: I find it fun. "I" is defined as whoever posted that.

[ilovecuttingyews]

If I make a H&A thread about where the best place to cut yews is and someone posts 'don't cut yews, kill frost dragons and buy yews', it may not be trolling by the 'official' definition but it serves no purpose in the thread so I consider it 'trolling'. I have no problem with people posting efficient advice (in fact I encourage it), but it should always conform to the specifications set by the poster. Occasionally those 'efficiency trolls' can come off as quite condescending and that has no place here.

 

To sum up my opinion; I have respect for those people who choose to play in an efficient maner and welcome their advice (Grimy's spreadsheets were amazing), but if someone does not ask for it, they shouldn't have put up with it.

[Kimberly]

If there are pros and cons, then there's a discussion to be had. I'm talking about suggestions without pros. For example, let's take a player asking the best way to train from 95-99 fishing. The best way exp/hour-wise is to do c2 ice floors in dungeoneering, dropping all the fish with mousekeys. If they don't want something so APM-intensive, they can sit back and watch a movie while fishing rocktails. An argument could even be made for barbarian heavy rod fishing if they value agility exp very highly. These are ALL acceptable responses. What OP shouldn't have to deal with is somebody telling him to fish sharks for all that sweet cash. Sharks are objectively worse than another option (rocktails) in literally every way- they are less afk, the spots move more, you have to bank more often, they have markedly less exp/hour, and they make less money/hour. Suggesting shark fishing is flamebait and unhelpful. That sort of response is trolling and should be dealt with accordingly.

 

I can understand in that case why someone would respond to a poster like that and explain why that's a poor decision. I don't see why it should be reportable though. People learn from mistakes, and if someone like you explain why something's wrong, they learn. But if something like that becomes reportable, punishable, removable...people won't learn the why. Maybe your examples were meant to be more grey-area than that, but if I take you at your word...then what you're suggesting is removing the learning from the entire process. It's irresponsible, and I honestly don't think it would produce the environment you'd be hoping for. Better you should put the user on ignore than pursue such a road, because it wouldn't change anything for the better, but make the community cliques and urge to conformity higher than ever before.

[BeNiceOk]

^Everything wrong with TIF moderation summed up in one convenient post.

 

Caution: You are walking into a Text Wall Zone.

So now your stating that any question that a person asks should be about reaching maximum efficiency, or they shouldn't post at all? Because that's basically what you just said when you quoted his post.. Help & Advice is a forum for players about asking for help and advice for any question and any answer, not just limited to the most efficient.

 

And yes, not naming names, there are "efficiency trolls" in the H&A forum on a daily basis, and you know exactly who you are with the smile on your face after every post in the H&A section. I am not against efficiency, so don't assume that I'm one of the naysayers that efficiency is bad bad bad! "Efficiency trolls" have one major flaw that makes them a troll.. The flaw is when advice becomes mandatory. But Katori!, Nobody forces anyone to do anything over the internet! Let me give an example.

 

1-2 weeks ago there was a thread on the H&A section about a player wishing to have a rate at which Rocktails could be caught for money and xp. There were a few posts, some helpful, and some which offered advice that more efficient methods could be to do another style of fishing for faster xp, and then kill frost dragons with that "gained time" to gain more xp and GP in the time-frame allotted.

 

THIS IS FINE! O_o What?

Yes, its fine. I'm A-OK with players giving advice from every angle of opportunity. A problem then arises, which is how the "efficiency troll" appears. The original poster states he is not interested in such a method, and would rather take the path of the slow rocktails. He/She is only interested in the AFK values for this method. THIS IS NOT ACCEPTABLE!

 

At this point, the "effencicy trolls" arrive. Posts start to pour in stating that if your not going to do something better if it's available, then why ask advice for the 2nd rate thing. Posts contain flame bait stating how fishing rocktails is not the best method for anything.. Posts about how players or methods are "stupid" or a "waste of time"...

 

If you post in a H&A fourm, you are entitled to give your advice on any topic you feel you can be helpful. I'm not assuming that's what H&A is for.. that's what the rules say its for. If the original poster comes back and states he is not interested in your ideas, you need to walk away. Posting that your ideas are superior IS flamebait (and thus trolling). I'm sorry if you feel it isn't but that doesn't change that a drug addiction is an addiction.

 

Players are often addicted to the H&A forum for a place to give their "advice". If you post your advice more than once in a thread where the OP said he/she is not interested in your method, not only are you trolling & Flamebaiting, but you are also committing a personal attack because you don't know when you back off.

 

Those that have been banned for "efficiency trolling" have rightfully been banned. It makes no difference if your giving advice which you think is right. Repeating a concept (which you or another player has already posted) several times in a thread is spamming. Telling a poster repeatedly to do something they posted they are not interested in doing is a personal attack. Posting that a paticular method is stupid or "x is better", or "if you don't want the best advice, don't post" is flamebait (trolling). All are bannable offenses.

 

Its neither helpful, nor good advice, to state the way a player is doing something is "wrong". And if you think telling another player they are doing something wrong is good advice, then you are most likely one of those trolls. Post your advice. If they take it, fine. if they don't and you can't accept the fact that someone won't take your advice, perhaps your more addicted than you let yourself believe...

[Sir_Squab]

If I make a H&A thread about where the best place to cut yews is and someone posts 'don't cut yews, kill frost dragons and buy yews', it may not be trolling by the 'official' definitio but it serves no purpose in the thread so I consider it 'trolling'. I have no problem with people posting efficient advice (in fact i encourage it), but it should always conform to the specifications set by the poster. Occasionally those 'efficiency trolls' can come off as quite condescending and that has no place here.

 

To sum up my opinion; I have respect for those people who choose to play in an efficient maner and welcome their advice (Grimy's spreadsheets were amazing), but if someone does not ask for it, they shouldn't have put up with it.

 

True, but there comes a point where a person should look at the math and consider different money makers, looking for the best one for them. Maybe someone is looking for the best place to cut yews because they don't KNOW better money makers and need to be informed. The sword cuts both ways.

 

On the other hand, maybe the person wants to cut yews for their own use for a sense of self sufficiency. Who knows. Point is, neither side seems truly right; I still like my idea the most (at the start of every post, point out whether you are posting from an efficiency standpoint or fun standpoint.) Perhaps a detailed explanation of WHY you're giving that advice.

 

I.E. Go kill dragons for money and then buy yews, and cut ivy for exp; the overall rate at which you will acquire yews and earn WC exp will be faster this way.

 

Go cut yews here because it's the best place for this reason.

 

In virtually all H&A thread, there is a need to have the most efficient way put down. There is also place for alternative ways, so long as they aren't passed off as BEING the most efficient.

 

Finally, at the end of the day, some advice will still be stupid and probably should be deleted.

[Synthox]

(which is a high stat anyway)

Define: high.

80+ is my definition of a high stat. But that is simply because I'm noobier stat wise than you.

[green9090]

If there are pros and cons, then there's a discussion to be had. I'm talking about suggestions without pros. For example, let's take a player asking the best way to train from 95-99 fishing. The best way exp/hour-wise is to do c2 ice floors in dungeoneering, dropping all the fish with mousekeys. If they don't want something so APM-intensive, they can sit back and watch a movie while fishing rocktails. An argument could even be made for barbarian heavy rod fishing if they value agility exp very highly. These are ALL acceptable responses. What OP shouldn't have to deal with is somebody telling him to fish sharks for all that sweet cash. Sharks are objectively worse than another option (rocktails) in literally every way- they are less afk, the spots move more, you have to bank more often, they have markedly less exp/hour, and they make less money/hour. Suggesting shark fishing is flamebait and unhelpful. That sort of response is trolling and should be dealt with accordingly.

 

I can understand in that case why someone would respond to a poster like that and explain why that's a poor decision. I don't see why it should be reportable though. People learn from mistakes, and if someone like you explain why something's wrong, they learn. But if something like that becomes reportable, punishable, removable...people won't learn the why. Maybe your examples were meant to be more grey-area than that, but if I take you at your word...then what you're suggesting is removing the learning from the entire process. It's irresponsible, and I honestly don't think it would produce the environment you'd be hoping for. Better you should put the user on ignore than pursue such a road, because it wouldn't change anything for the better, but make the community cliques and urge to conformity higher than ever before.

Like I said earlier, it only becomes a problem when they're vehemently defending their idea. If they say fish sharks, people explain why rocktails are better, and they go "oh." and stop, that's fine. But if they go YOU GUYS ARE ALL JUST EFFICIENCY TROLLS SHARKS ARE FINE IF YOU LIKE THEM STOP TELLING ME WHAT TO DO, that's when it's trolling, and it happens a LOT.

 

Katori, I think you're confusing the efficiency crowd for one collective consciousness. I certainly wouldn't endorse that sort of thing.

[Kimberly]

If I make a H&A thread about where the best place to cut yews is and someone posts 'don't cut yews, kill frost dragons and buy yews', it may not be trolling by the 'official' definitio but it serves no purpose in the thread so I consider it 'trolling'.

 

Wouldn't that be off-topic posting, not trolling? The user is not asking how to gain the money to get yews, but where to cut them, so the post is irrelevant.

 

Yet if the user asked where can I cut yews to raise my firemaking level, then that would be a perfectly acceptable piece of advice, I would think, because it explains how better to gain capital so you can attack your main goal (raising firemaking). Unless the user says he only wants to wc to get yews...

 

It all makes my head spin, it's all so grey. It must be a veritable headache for staff and users alike.

 

Like I said earlier, it only becomes a problem when they're vehemently defending their idea. If they say fish sharks, people explain why rocktails are better, and they go "oh." and stop, that's fine. But if they go YOU GUYS ARE ALL JUST EFFICIENCY TROLLS SHARKS ARE FINE IF YOU LIKE THEM STOP TELLING ME WHAT TO DO, that's when it's trolling, and it happens a LOT.

 

Oh, that took a while to find out what you meant. I agree with that, if they are insulting or attacking, that should definitely be reported and removed. It's neither contributing to the discussion nor fair to the person it's turned upon. I'm sorry it took me a while to see that we agreed about the same thing :P

[green9090]

If I make a H&A thread about where the best place to cut yews is and someone posts 'don't cut yews, kill frost dragons and buy yews', it may not be trolling by the 'official' definitio but it serves no purpose in the thread so I consider it 'trolling'.

 

Wouldn't that be off-topic posting, not trolling? The user is not asking how to gain the money to get yews, but where to cut them, so the post is irrelevant.

 

Yet if the user asked where can I cut yews to raise my firemaking level, then that would be a perfectly acceptable piece of advice, I would think, because it explains how better to gain capital so you can attack your main goal (raising firemaking). Unless the user says he only wants to wc to get yews...

 

It all makes my head spin, it's all so grey. It must be a veritable headache for staff and users alike.

I don't really think it's off topic. This actually happened a while ago- somebody asked where to cut yews, and I said something to the effect of "Unless you're a DIYer, you should consider not cutting yews, they're like 300k gp/hour income, which is BAD." I got flamed. I feel like my advice was solid- I didn't tell them they couldn't cut yews if they wanted to, other people had told them places to cut yews, and I had given them something else to think about in case they weren't aware what a bad moneymaker yews are. The OP had a variety of good advice to choose from depending on what direction they wanted to go.

[Ginger_Warrior]

On the other hand, maybe the person wants to cut yews for their own use for a sense of self sufficiency. Who knows. Point is, neither side seems truly right; I still like my idea the most (at the start of every post, point out whether you are posting from an efficiency standpoint or fun standpoint.) Perhaps a detailed explanation of WHY you're giving that advice.

Except that it doesn't fit into boxes that neatly.

 

What is efficiency? To me it's minimising the amount of time/cost needed to achieve a specifically set goal. To others it's simply the mental state of being determined.

What is fun? To some, it's actually being efficient. To others, it's anything but. To the minority it's doing things in the strangest way possible (The Kahbahgee thing wasn't exactly efficient yet no one seemed to give two about that - it was as much a social activity as anything else).

 

Also, most people don't want to shoved down one path and told to walk. People like variety.

[Sir_Squab]

If there are pros and cons, then there's a discussion to be had. I'm talking about suggestions without pros. For example, let's take a player asking the best way to train from 95-99 fishing. The best way exp/hour-wise is to do c2 ice floors in dungeoneering, dropping all the fish with mousekeys. If they don't want something so APM-intensive, they can sit back and watch a movie while fishing rocktails. An argument could even be made for barbarian heavy rod fishing if they value agility exp very highly. These are ALL acceptable responses. What OP shouldn't have to deal with is somebody telling him to fish sharks for all that sweet cash. Sharks are objectively worse than another option (rocktails) in literally every way- they are less afk, the spots move more, you have to bank more often, they have markedly less exp/hour, and they make less money/hour. Suggesting shark fishing is flamebait and unhelpful. That sort of response is trolling and should be dealt with accordingly.

 

I can understand in that case why someone would respond to a poster like that and explain why that's a poor decision. I don't see why it should be reportable though. People learn from mistakes, and if someone like you explain why something's wrong, they learn. But if something like that becomes reportable, punishable, removable...people won't learn the why. Maybe your examples were meant to be more grey-area than that, but if I take you at your word...then what you're suggesting is removing the learning from the entire process. It's irresponsible, and I honestly don't think it would produce the environment you'd be hoping for. Better you should put the user on ignore than pursue such a road, because it wouldn't change anything for the better, but make the community cliques and urge to conformity higher than ever before.

Like I said earlier, it only becomes a problem when they're vehemently defending their idea. If they say fish sharks, people explain why rocktails are better, and they go "oh." and stop, that's fine. But if they go YOU GUYS ARE ALL JUST EFFICIENCY TROLLS SHARKS ARE FINE IF YOU LIKE THEM STOP TELLING ME WHAT TO DO, that's when it's trolling, and it happens a LOT.

 

Katori, I think you're confusing the efficiency crowd for one collective consciousness. I certainly wouldn't endorse that sort of thing.

 

Best example:

 

What's the best way to fish rocktails? - posted at X:00 oclock

*insert best way to fish rocktails* - posted at X:11

*insert comment about killing dragons and fly fishing instead* - posted at X:17

Efficiency Troll: OMFG NEVER FISH ROCKTAILS DRAGONS ARE BETTER YOU BLEEP - posted at X:19

Non-Efficiency Troll: OMFG HE DIDN'T ASK ABOUT KILLING DRAGONS YOU BLEEP - posted at X:19

Idiot: Fishing lobsters is better.

 

Don't claim either side is overall better then the other imo.

[Dragonlordjl]

There is a point where efficiency requires so much effort and concentration that it stops being fun. I hate anything click-intensive, especially if it involves using mousekeys to boost productivity. So what if you can get 200k thieving exp per hour blackjacking--- it involves so much goddam clicking that it is miserable to do. And I play games to have FUN, not slave away at them doing things I detest for marginal benefits. That is a big reason why most of my non-combat skills are so low-- it is [bleep]ing tedious to train them efficiently, and it's [bleep]ing slow to train them non-efficiently, so since there is little benefit to training them anyway I might as well not train them at all.

 

I realize that this post is slightly off-topic, but whatever. I hate skilling, so I am not going to ask for advice because I know I wouldn't use it. I think that's the main gripe of the efficient people: H&A topics ask for advice, but more often than not the people who make them have already made up their minds about what they wanted before they posted and were just looking for people to agree with them.

[Th e Doctor]

Wow, lots of replys.

 

On the topic of the H&A section I'm not endorsing the people who troll with efficient advise. Im advocating for those of us who get trolled and lumped in with them for posting efficient advise.

 

At the mod posts earlier (mobile phone ftw) yes H&A should be open to a variety of advice. It should also be a place where better advice is valued over worse advice. When piece of advice A is given and piece of advice B, which is better, is posted and piece of advice A is defended as if it were in fact better when its been proven that it isn't then it is trolling. If A is defended as being more fun then fine, the discussion is over but the idea that all advice should be held as equally valuable is just silly. For instance the fastest way to get money is RWT but that advice should never be given in a money making advice thread. Hyperbole yes but it makes my point.

 

Again, there are people who troll and when asked where can I cut yews will say go kill frosts. But those of us who list all the locations and then note that killing frosts to buy yews after with the cash shouldn't be trolled for providing an efficient alternative in addition to the answer to his question.