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Is anyone else just completely disappointed with everyone?


IHasChicken

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I just want to go out on the record (and if this is in the wrong place, feel free to move it, but I feel that it will get the most exposure here,) and say that I am just disappointed with how this whole issue has been handled by ALL parties involved. The moderators said that they wanted mature, honest feedback, and I think this is the best way to give it to them.

 

I'll try to mention as little as I can about the issue (as I know that would be the wrong thing to do and it's beside the point,) but even though I disagree with what occurred, I still think that both the moderators AND the parties involved behaved VERY poorly.

 

First of all, I know a lot of the people making the fuss quite well. I've posted along-side them and have found their conduct to be exemplary USUALLY. I think that, when posting advice and/or help they are, for the most part, SPOT ON with their posts. Which is why it pains me so greatly to see you go out of the way to DESTROY all of this credibility you have by just acting like a bunch of morons. Sure, the ban may not have been justified, but why would you compound the issue just to make a point? And the greatest hypocracy is, the person in question has been temporarily banned MULTIPLE times before and has had a chance to change his behaviour (whether it was right, or wrong, he still had a chance to modify his behaviour in a way that he could still provide valuable posts without being quite as blunt) in order to continue using these forums. Yet, when he was temporarily banned all of these times it was never an issue? I agree, it's fine to post in BlogScape about it (I even encourage it,) and it's fine to have little mementos of him, but acting like idiots will just cause stress to everyone and won't help your case. This is where I agree with the moderators.

 

Secondly, the moderators. Yes, I understand there have been a lot of these threads. Yes, I understand that you are only human, and humans make mistakes. Yes, I agree with what you are trying to do IN THEORY with your new policies and your methods to deal with these sort of issues. But why, why, why, why, why do you, instead of just hiding/deleting the topics, lock them IN PLAIN SIGHT and, if that's not enough, post inflammatory remarks back, scorning and warning people en masse. Do you really think this is going to help the issue? Do you really think that people are going to feel any more inclined to use the forums if they see this? Because, I can tell you, if I walked into the 20-odd page topic as a new member and saw some of the posts of the moderators there, I would walk right away. Discretion is the better part of valor, and the fact that you're usually right on the money with these sorts of issues just makes it far more confusing when you're not. DON'T FEED THE TROLLS! DON'T DO EXACTLY WHAT THEY ARE SAYING THAT YOU ARE DOING. Either keep it private, or just don't rise to their bait.

 

This forum desperately needs an open forum where the RULES DON'T APPLY (e.g. a sticky in General Discussion, no, NOT anywhere else as it would just fade into obscurity,) where issues such as this can be addressed openly. That will limit the damage to the whole board when issues like this do arise, and will provide these people who have complaints with a legitimate area in which they can present their evidence.

 

This issue could have been handled far better by both sides, and I'm quite disappointed, but, I hope that by posting this, we could get a valuable, SENSIBLE discussion going with people who are like-minded in this issue, and MAYBE we could see some changes. And by changes, I don't mean ban-reversals or overthrowing the moderators (lol,) but maybe mutually agreed upon ways in which the posters and the moderators can keep an open dialogue.

 

Please don't use this thread to troll.

 

Please don't just lock/hide this thread straight away because it brings up a sensitive issue.

 

Because without the posters, there would be no need for moderators, and without the moderators, there would probably be nowhere to post.

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I pretty much agree with this.

 

Not that it's not going to be locked anyways.

 

I'd like to think if we kept this discussion civil that the thread wouldn't be locked.

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Hey all, just wanted to clarify our motivations for separating from tip it.

 

Mainly, we felt a lack of support from the administration. Some of them are great people with a strong vision for RS community building. But at the core, we felt some serious issues:

-- Mods and admins were retired from RS and out of touch with the modern content-focused ('efficient') community

-- Didn't post on the most popular forums often and, again, were out of touch with their primary userbase

-- Supported moderatory action which was uncalled for and unjust

-- A lack of a transparent and reasonable moderatory process

-- Didn't take initiative in bettering the forums

 

Because of these problems, which we've observed for a long time, we were thinking of separation from tip it. Grimy was originally intent on this, and I agreed. The halfway point some of us wanted was a separate "efficient" general discussion so that "fun" focused and "efficiency" focused players could talk separately in peace.

 

However, negotiations went sour. Not going to lie, we made a few mistakes on our part, but more importantly we did not feel a strong initiative for change from the administration. They agreed with some of our ideas but didn't give us much feedback. We felt like they were discussing things behind closed doors. Moreover, you know us - we're blunt - and quite frankly angered a lot of the admins, who unfortunately couldn't look over their anger and thus made some pretty personally motivated decisions and statements. These mistakes are regretful and obviously go both ways.

 

Things turned for the worse when they started handing out very unreasonable bans, such as one for xpx for "trolling" Ancient when it was quite obviously joke. Threads got deleted and moved for no apparent reason and without much explanation.

 

It was at that point that separation from tip it was a pretty obvious move.

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I think things could been handled differently.

 

Truth is I cant say what I want to say and I dont really care that much either way. Theres been some other less well known posters I agreed with most but I cant really restate what they said. Due to just respecting OP mostly that I wont contribute to a thread being locked. Especially something I aint that fussed over as I can simply one way or another find the info I want.

 

Nevermind! I still find best info here there or anywhere (Including my own ideas and methods.) and use tipit for its layout and screenshot thread lol.

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Well said.

Unfortunate that the mods have decided to alienate the most helpful people here.

Ah well. Their loss.

To be fair, so did the people protesting against them. Nobody came out of this looking pretty. Regardless of how badly the mods may have been, there really wasn't any excuse for what some people did to protest them, and I say this as a person who before today probably would have agreed with most of what was being said.

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Hey all, just wanted to clarify our motivations for separating from tip it.

 

Mainly, we felt a lack of support from the administration. Some of them are great people with a strong vision for RS community building. But at the core, we felt some serious issues:

-- Mods and admins were retired from RS and out of touch with the modern content-focused ('efficient') community

-- Didn't post on the most popular forums often and, again, were out of touch with their primary userbase

-- Supported moderatory action which was uncalled for and unjust

-- A lack of a transparent and reasonable moderatory process

-- Didn't take initiative in bettering the forums

 

Because of these problems, which we've observed for a long time, we were thinking of separation from tip it. Grimy was originally intent on this, and I agreed. The halfway point some of us wanted was a separate "efficient" general discussion so that "fun" focused and "efficiency" focused players could talk separately in peace.

 

However, negotiations went sour. Not going to lie, we made a few mistakes on our part, but more importantly we did not feel a strong initiative for change from the administration. They agreed with some of our ideas but didn't give us much feedback. We felt like they were discussing things behind closed doors. Moreover, you know us - we're blunt - and quite frankly angered a lot of the admins, who unfortunately couldn't look over their anger and thus made some pretty personally motivated decisions and statements. These mistakes are regretful and obviously go both ways.

 

Things turned for the worse when they started handing out very unreasonable bans, such as one for xpx for "trolling" me when it was quite obviously joke. Threads got deleted and moved for no apparent reason and without much explanation.

 

It was at that point that separation from tip it was a pretty obvious move.

 

Anyway, here we are. I look forward to building a great community with you guys.

 

That being said, there's no point throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

 

Even if you managed to take half of the active posters on TIF, then all that would leave you with is two weaker forums.

 

And this thread has nothing to do with the segregation of the forums, I think it's a fine move and you are welcome to do it, it's just your conduct and the moderator's conduct was both terrible and has now left a lot of people (myself included,) torn as to which way to go.

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Well said.

Unfortunate that the mods have decided to alienate the most helpful people here.

Ah well. Their loss.

To be fair, so did the people protesting against them. Nobody came out of this looking pretty. Regardless of how badly the mods may have been, there really wasn't any excuse for what some people did to protest them, and I say this as a person who before today probably would have agreed with most of what was being said.

 

Which is exactly why I'm disgusted with both sides' behaviour and I think it's going to have quite dire consequences.

 

A lot of people are leaving over this. And I'm not trying to be a fear-monger, it's absolutely true. This is a major issue, and if this thread happens to be hidden or locked, or the people who are angry with the moderation come and just destroy this thread by trolling/spamming it, then I think it just shows that NEITHER community is worth being in.

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Although I do agree with you, the main problem is that the mods let the trolls/flamers/spammers post enough that they not only become addicted to it, but it also causes problems between posters like we're seeing today. I say crack down on the "troubled" posters but also moderate more consistently (bans/warnings spread out instead of all at once).

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Although I do agree with you, the main problem is that the mods let the trolls/flamers/spammers post enough that they not only become addicted to it, but it also causes problems between posters like we're seeing today. I say crack down on the "troubled" posters but also moderate more consistently (bans/warnings spread out instead of all at once).

 

I agree with this, but the thing is, a lot of the people who are trolling/flaming/spamming do not usually behave like this, which is why they feel that they can get away with it, because they have a common cause and not a large amount of warnings/bans.

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Which is exactly why I'm disgusted with both sides' behaviour and I think it's going to have quite dire consequences.

 

A lot of people are leaving over this. And I'm not trying to be a fear-monger, it's absolutely true. This is a major issue, and if this thread happens to be hidden or locked, or the people who are angry with the moderation come and just destroy this thread by trolling/spamming it, then I think it just shows that NEITHER community is worth being in.

I'm actually not a general discussion regular, though, so the only part I've seen in this was from general discussion's regulars (A number of whom I did consider friends regardless). This drew in a lot of people that didn't know what actually caused this overreaction, but it's what they saw. I don't give two [cabbage]s about the efficiency debate, but given the circumstances it's hard not to side with the mods at least a little.

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Very rational post. Respect.

 

I agree with most of the things you've said, though I think the moderators are doing a better job than everyone else is giving them credit for. They deleted a lot of the spam/troll topics already. I'd assume they're only keeping some of those topics up for "evidence" or historical/referential purposes.

 

This forum desperately needs an open forum where the RULES DON'T APPLY (e.g. a sticky in General Discussion, no, NOT anywhere else as it would just fade into obscurity,) where issues such as this can be addressed openly. That will limit the damage to the whole board when issues like this do arise, and will provide these people who have complaints with a legitimate area in which they can present their evidence.

 

A forum with no limits would be pretty cool, but you'd have to draw a line somewhere. I don't think flaming is acceptable under any circumstances, and in a forum like that, I'm sure flaming would be much more rampant :\

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In the end, it all boils down to letting people play the game as they wish. If someone gave bad advice, give better advice, and then OP will decide what he does. Advice is only better if he decides it's better.

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Matt: You want anything funny that happens, don't you?

Camera guy: still laughing

Matt: You want the funny shit that happens here and there, you think it comes out of your [bleep]ing [wagon] pushes garbage can down, don't you? You think it's funny? It comes out of here! running towards Camera guy

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Very rational post. Respect.

 

I agree with most of the things you've said, though I think the moderators are doing a better job than everyone else is giving them credit for. They deleted a lot of the spam/troll topics already. I'd assume they're only keeping some of those topics up for "evidence" or historical/referential purposes.

 

This forum desperately needs an open forum where the RULES DON'T APPLY (e.g. a sticky in General Discussion, no, NOT anywhere else as it would just fade into obscurity,) where issues such as this can be addressed openly. That will limit the damage to the whole board when issues like this do arise, and will provide these people who have complaints with a legitimate area in which they can present their evidence.

 

A forum with no limits would be pretty cool, but you'd have to draw a line somewhere. I don't think flaming is acceptable under any circumstances, and in a forum like that, I'm sure flaming would be much more rampant :\

 

I'm not saying anything definite, there just needs to be an area where feedback can be public, and allow for people's emotions (so maybe be a little bit more lenient on some of the rules.)

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That being said, there's no point throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

 

Even if you managed to take half of the active posters on TIF, then all that would leave you with is two weaker forums.

 

And this thread has nothing to do with the segregation of the forums, I think it's a fine move and you are welcome to do it, it's just your conduct and the moderator's conduct was both terrible and has now left a lot of people (myself included,) torn as to which way to go.

 

I can't say I really agree with that. Two forums, yes, but weaker? I think it's pretty clear from the attitudes of all the various parties that Tip.It was very fragmented. Separation, at the very least, means there's less hurt to go around.

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How would a no rules board have prevented what transpired today?

Do you think that by venting butthurt in some obscene way in a an open forum, there would be less efficiency trolling?

I doubt it since it doesn't address the source of butthurt which was ego.

Frankly, some people decided a long time ago that they knew best for everbody else and that they had a right to tell everybody what to do and attack people who thought differently.

I can't take those people seriously, they are elistists or as I simply think of them, clowns... efficiency clowns.

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He just successfully trolled you with "courtesy" and managed to get a reaction out of you. Lol

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That being said, there's no point throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

 

Even if you managed to take half of the active posters on TIF, then all that would leave you with is two weaker forums.

 

And this thread has nothing to do with the segregation of the forums, I think it's a fine move and you are welcome to do it, it's just your conduct and the moderator's conduct was both terrible and has now left a lot of people (myself included,) torn as to which way to go.

 

I can't say I really agree with that. Two forums, yes, but weaker? I think it's pretty clear from the attitudes of all the various parties that Tip.It was very fragmented. Separation, at the very least, means there's less hurt to go around.

 

You can't deny the fact, however, that a smaller posting base would mean there would be less variety in the issues brought up, less traffic to the site, less credibility and prestige (like it or not, being the forum to one of the leading Runescape help sites comes with a LOT of credibility,) and just less activity in general, even if the fewer people who posted were more intellectual.

 

I'm not saying the quality of the posts would be weaker, i'm saying that the site as a whole, in many ways, would be much weaker.

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I'm not saying anything definite, there just needs to be an area where feedback can be public, and allow for people's emotions (so maybe be a little bit more lenient on some of the rules.)

 

The forum where a lot of the topics got moved to already exists for that. But as far as emotions go, I think everyone today has just been overreacting/overemotional about everything (and also breaking the rules in the process and being punished for it). The question is-- how much leniency should be given and how much (irrational) emotion should be tolerated? :-k

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I can't say I really agree with that. Two forums, yes, but weaker? I think it's pretty clear from the attitudes of all the various parties that Tip.It was very fragmented. Separation, at the very least, means there's less hurt to go around.

Any longterm effects of this whole schism will take a while to show up. I don't see the other board growing much unless they do a good job of advertising only to the kinds of posters that they want there, while Tip.It will grow, but we sure as hell won't get any better. It'll be hard to replace a lot of those guys, especially when most of them were the ones that more or less ran the help section.

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How would a no rules board have prevented what transpired today?

Do you think that by venting butthurt in some obscene way in a an open forum, there would be less efficiency trolling?

I doubt it since it doesn't address the source of butthurt which was ego.

Frankly, some people decided a long time ago that they knew best for everbody else and that they had a right to tell everybody what to do and attack people who thought differently.

I can't take those people seriously, they are elistists or as I simply think of them, clowns... efficiency clowns.

 

First of all, I never said a whole no rules board, just a certain sticky.

 

Second of all, if this sort of behaviour was, not allowed, but more tolerated in certain areas, the people who troll/flame/spam will feel more validated because there is a legitimate area for them to get their point across.

 

Thirdly, if there was this sort of open sticky that existed, the moderators could be more harsh, like they want to be, on the rest of the board, and if any complaints arise, they can just point to this sticky and say "it's there, why didn't you use it."

 

And fourthly, this thread is not about the initial behaviour of "effiiciency trolling," it is about the backlash that resulted. That is why I neglected to mention the issue of efficiency in my original post.

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This game is played mainly by kids, teens and young adults. I'm not really surprised by these kind of behaviors we've seen lately.

 

If I had to choose who I would like to see gone, it wouldn't be the efficiency fans (I'll never call them trolls, because there is a huge difference between promoting efficiency and trolling noobs).

I'm still praying that the bot apologists find a new place to hang out.

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We would like to further the stance of those leaving stance on this matter.

There has been a lot of trolling that has occured on our behalf.

The first note is the bladewing memorial.

This was incited by Green, who was not a part of the negotiations between the admins and those leaving.

However, Jimmy Jim immediately locked the thread, and changed the title of several blogs in reaction.

Furthermore, the Admins began accusing us of protesting against them even though Green did not even know there were negotiations going on in private.

We personally took this a bad way. We're in the middle of negotiations and the administrators immediately start accusing us for that we did not start.

 

You make us sound like this big united efficiency community. It's really really really hard to keep tabs on everybody at the same time.

 

But we continued negotiating in spite of the blogscape event.

But eventually the admins lost interest and nobody spoke on the private discussion for several days. We were rather impatient that the Admins simply did not care enough to contribute further to the discussion.

 

Ultimately our patience broke when xpx and ancient were banned for unjust reasons. Things spiralled out of control. We decided to leave, and we informed VERY EXPLICITLY to everybody we could contact in time, to avoid trolling. The requests to stop trolling are still up in both our Skype logs and in our new forum.

BUT we can't contact everybody at once. And ultimately Levon ended up spamming porn over the boards, but was lectured about it after the fact. Our party has no interest in needless flaming. But considering the grievances, and our limited ability to micromanage every last individual that supports us, it was ultimately inevitable.

 

We would like to ask anybody else that supports those leaving TIF to do so with discretion. Flaming and trolling will do neither part any good in this scenario.

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We would like to further the stance of those leaving stance on this matter.

There has been a lot of trolling that has occured on our behalf.

The first note is the bladewing memorial.

This was incited by Green, who was not a part of the negotiations between the admins and those leaving.

However, Jimmy Jim immediately locked the thread, and changed the title of several blogs in reaction.

Furthermore, the Admins began accusing us of protesting against them even though Green did not even know there were negotiations going on in private.

We personally took this a bad way. We're in the middle of negotiations and the administrators immediately start accusing us for that we did not start.

 

You make us sound like this big united efficiency community. It's really really really hard to keep tabs on everybody at the same time.

 

But we continued negotiating in spite of the blogscape event.

But eventually the admins lost interest and nobody spoke on the private discussion for several days. We were rather impatient that the Admins simply did not care enough to contribute further to the discussion.

 

Ultimately our patience broke when xpx and ancient were banned for unjust reasons. Things spiralled out of control. We decided to leave, and we informed VERY EXPLICITLY to everybody we could contact in time, to avoid trolling. The requests to stop trolling are still up in both our Skype logs and in our new forum.

BUT we can't contact everybody at once. And ultimately Levon ended up spamming porn over the boards, but was lectured about it after the fact. Our party has no interest in needless flaming. But considering the grievances, and our limited ability to micromanage every last individual that supports us, it was ultimately inevitable.

 

We would like to ask anybody else that supports those leaving TIF to do so with discretion. Flaming and trolling will do neither part any good in this scenario.

 

If this is true, then I hope, for your sake, that you take note of the people who are migrating to your new board and watch them closely.

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