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Jaffy1

Banning the burqa

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Well you did say that arranged marriages were pathetic and sad. Which would imply that non-arranged marriages are better, or more successful...


TANSTAAFL

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Im not sure how I feel about the ban. I support it because it stops muslim men in France from forcing their women to wear one but I am against it because I dont like big government and if they decided wearing hats or something shouldnt be allowed I would be pissed. I think the public safety reason is probably the best way of convincing the public to support it though.

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Guys, it'd be much appreciated if you cooled things down a bit. There is no need to respond to a troll. If you ever find yourself calling someone a troll, that means you should have used the report button ;).


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Who is the troll right now?


TANSTAAFL

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Typical. Guys, tone it down. And Faux, do me a favour and either stop posting or start contributing to the thread. You just linked to a thread irrelevant to this one.

There has to be a distinction made between those women who voluntarily wear the burqa, and those people who are forced to do so. I couldn't say which is in the majority. That's a bit of an issue when making blanket-bans - you really need to know the majority.

I can't say much about the sitution in France, and indeed I believe it may be different, but in the middle east I think women are happy to wear at least a hijab (which is fine), and a burqa.

 

Although I'm not sure where the majority is either, I'm not sure how that really matters. The proportion of Muslim women who wear the Burqa is already a very small minority group already. If the ban means that a single Muslim family gives up on forcing their daughter to wear the Burqa, then it's worth it.


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Has anyone considered the possibility that they like wearing burqas?


TANSTAAFL

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Somehow this reminds me in Brave New World when the Savage disrupts the Soma distribution to the Deltas...

You can see that the French are filled with the best of intentions for Women's Rights, public safety, etc. Maybe they are even a little menacing towards a culture they don't want to support or would rather bring down. But banning an article of clothing, like throwing soma out, is only going to upset the people they're trying to help.


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The French just want to be French in France.


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I can't say much about the sitution in France, and indeed I believe it may be different, but in the middle east I think women are happy to wear at least a hijab (which is fine), and a burqa.

 

Although I am not an expert on woman's opinions on that in the middle east I do know that in (for example) Saudi Arabia it has been law for women to wear burqa's for many years. If they wouldn't properly cover themselves, the religious police known as the Mutaween. They are known to use a lot of violence and women are in danger of being imprisoned, beaten, flogged, or even beheaded. In a country like that fear makes women want to wear it if religious motives don't. The same goes for regions in Pakistan and Afghanistan that are ruled by the Taliban (with regard to the burqa).

 

To compare this with other Islamic countries, the Supreme Court of Malaysia prohibited public servants from covering their faces in 1994. Having been to Malaysia myself (although this is South East Asia) I noticed the vast majority of women wear the hijab, and I'd estimate less than 5% of the women I saw wore a niqab or burqa.

 

Considering that, is banning it truly ensuring these women cannot excercise their faith?


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Ignoring that point however I completely agree with France's decision to ban the burqa. It is stopping Islamic assimilation of culture and preserving French culture.

 

That sounds extremely xenophobic. You don't want Islamic people there because they're different to French culture? While they're at it, why not ban yamaka's and the collars that Catholic priests wear?

 

It is xenophobic and it is Nicholas Sarkozy's stance on things as well: Sarkozy said that the law 'is to protect women from being forced to cover their faces and to uphold France's secular values.'

Wearing a face-covering veil is optional in the muslim religion, it is a cultural thing and not really a religious thing.


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Ignoring that point however I completely agree with France's decision to ban the burqa. It is stopping Islamic assimilation of culture and preserving French culture.

 

That sounds extremely xenophobic. You don't want Islamic people there because they're different to French culture? While they're at it, why not ban yamaka's and the collars that Catholic priests wear?

 

It is xenophobic and it is Nicholas Sarkozy's stance on things as well: Sarkozy said that the law 'is to protect women from being forced to cover their faces and to uphold France's secular values.'

Wearing a face-covering veil is optional in the muslim religion, it is a cultural thing and not really a religious thing.

 

I see what you did there. In that case, Sarkozy is being xenophobic. I find there's perfectly valid argument for banning people from covering their faces in public, but that isn't one of them.


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It's not really to do with the assimilation of anything. It's just that in France, they expect people to be French first, everything else second, and being a French citizen means respecting the country's attitude to secularism; therefore they expect that French Muslim women should wear partial veils instead of full-faced veils.

 

It's not really anything against Islam per se, but more in the interests of French secularism. Is that xenophobic? Probably, but only if you categorise Islam as being inherently un-French, which I don't think it is.

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France categorizes religion in general as being un-french.


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Although I'm not sure where the majority is either, I'm not sure how that really matters. The proportion of Muslim women who wear the Burqa is already a very small minority group already. If the ban means that a single Muslim family gives up on forcing their daughter to wear the Burqa, then it's worth it.

 

That is the problem by banning the burqa you will not suddenly free women who are forced to wear it, instead you're creating a circumstance where they will be prisoners in their own homes. What western democracies should be doing is criminalising husbands/fathers/ family members who force women to wear the burqa and at the same time attempt to create an open and understanding atmosphere where women can come forward and report people who are forcing them to wear it against their will. Banning the burqa only serves to further alienate a section of society in a poorly thought out attempt to squash a problem that affects a tiny proportion of the population.

 

Of couse, some women choose to wear the burqa without any coersion from others and they should have the right to do so. I also find it interesting that the French law doesn't specifically mention the burqa in its text, instead referring to anything covering the face, it does however, only really apply to the burqa in practice.


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France categorizes religion in general as being un-french.

Yeah, that was more the point I was making. But that's not in opposition Islam specifically, as the guy I was responding to implied. Just that in a conflict between the state's interests and a religion's, the state should take priority.

 

EDIT: Just noticed that the 'q' in 'burqa' isn't followed by a 'u'. What is the meaning of this nonsense?

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EDIT: Just noticed that the 'q' in 'burqa' isn't followed by a 'u'. What is the meaning of this nonsense?

 

Where did you get the idea of a 'u' being after the q from? It's not a French word, it's Arabic :)

 

I don't have much more to add to this conversation by the way, just wanted to ask that.

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Don't like France and their anti-Islamic sentiment? Then get out. I support France. Anywhere else you go, if you speak out against Islam, you will get threatened or seriously defamed. (mostly due to radical Islam)


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Don't like France and their anti-Islamic sentiment? Then get out. I support France. Anywhere else you go, if you speak out against Islam, you will get threatened or seriously defamed. (mostly due to radical Islam)

 

I dont like the logic that says, 'just because they do it, that makes it OK for us'. We need to uphold our standards of democracy, despite of the unjust countries. Western countries should always take the high world, and never sink down to the level of morality held by most Islamic countries.


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I think France is just fed up with Islam. Frankly, I think a lot of the world is too.


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I think France is just fed up with Islam. Frankly, I think a lot of the world is too.

 

This is essentially the idea here. While there are some issues associated with such a ban, given the small number of burka-wearers in France targeting them to ensure protection of French values and culture is not too bad an idea.

 

Freedom of religion does not extend to that which is harmful to others.

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I think France is just fed up with Islam. Frankly, I think a lot of the world is too.

 

This is essentially the idea here. While there are some issues associated with such a ban, given the small number of burka-wearers in France targeting them to ensure protection of French values and culture is not too bad an idea.

 

Freedom of religion does not extend to that which is harmful to others.

Which is why Islam is one of the fastest growing religions in the world, and the vast majority of Muslims live outside of its original Arabian countries. But hey, if you want to cover "I'm fed up with Islam" by saying "The world is fed up with Islam", go for it.

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I think France is just fed up with Islam. Frankly, I think a lot of the world is too.

 

This is essentially the idea here. While there are some issues associated with such a ban, given the small number of burka-wearers in France targeting them to ensure protection of French values and culture is not too bad an idea.

 

Freedom of religion does not extend to that which is harmful to others.

Which is why Islam is one of the fastest growing religions in the world, and the vast majority of Muslims live outside of its original Arabian countries. But hey, if you want to cover "I'm fed up with Islam" by saying "The world is fed up with Islam", go for it.

fed up with radical islam.

 

islam is a great religion all in all. it preaches peace/prosperity and all that good stuff.

 

radical islam kills and it MUST be eradicated.


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I think France is just fed up with Islam. Frankly, I think a lot of the world is too.

 

This is essentially the idea here. While there are some issues associated with such a ban, given the small number of burka-wearers in France targeting them to ensure protection of French values and culture is not too bad an idea.

 

Freedom of religion does not extend to that which is harmful to others.

Which is why Islam is one of the fastest growing religions in the world, and the vast majority of Muslims live outside of its original Arabian countries. But hey, if you want to cover "I'm fed up with Islam" by saying "The world is fed up with Islam", go for it.

fed up with radical islam.

 

islam is a great religion all in all. it preaches peace/prosperity and all that good stuff.

 

radical islam kills and it MUST be eradicated.

 

...and banning the burqa achieves this how? Hint: It doesn't. By targeting such a small section of society (instead of trying to engage it) all you do is alientate Muslims in general which just feeds into the radical ideologues that already preach that the west is anti-Islamic.


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He who learns must suffer, and, even in our sleep, pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart,

and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.

- Aeschylus (525 BC - 456 BC)

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