Why doesn't Jagex incorporate this to stop bots?

[sees_all1]

A few points:

...

 

Software patents are illegal in the UK (and the rest of the EU)

 

...

 

Doesn't matter. Since Jagex's product is used in the US, they can be sued in a US court.

[Crocefisso]

Because Jagex is stupid

 

:thumbup: That's largely true.

[Pete Party]

Bots are not filling a void, they're crowding everyone out. Bots are not the solution to the "nobody would do this", they're the cause.

They are neither the cause or the solution. They are a byproduct of a crappy system.

Gathering skills are grindy ,boring, and expensive. Make them exciting, and you'll see less bots, and more players skilling.

 

Bots don't go away.

[Wkw]

/me has a bid talk with some people in my clan and the general agreement is:

 

-Botting can't be detected if it clicks the screen. Why? Because a program clicking the screen = mousekeys clicking the screen = mouse button clicking screen.

Also, they can't detect if you are using mousekeys, a bot, or something like AHK unless they install software on your computer

 

-You can bot all you want. Though don't look like a bot. Why? A lvl 4 making red spider eggs in edgevill.. that can get locked in a room for hours on end, and that does NOT log out, is OBVIOUSLY a bot. Whereas someone who is alching via an autoclicker, and chatting, does NOT look like a bot.

Why? Because a click is a click, it is pretty easy to position the alch spell and item on the sane X and Y coords, only requireing you to left click every few seconds. Mousekeys is the EXACT SAME THING. 5 5 5 5 5, lclick lclick lclick...

 

-Not only that, Jagex never says what CAN and can not be used to play the game. First, they said "1 input = 1 output", which is fine. It covers EVERYTHING. But there are loopholes in there. Did you know microsoft has a built in macro? It's called "character repeat". Holding down a mouse button.... repeats it. 1 input for an infinite amount of outputs.

Also, they've claimed that you can use no "third party programs" to play the game. Windows, OSX, ubuntu, your keyboard, mouse, and video card drivers are all third party. Third-party by what defination? Jagex? Everything aside from the game is third party.

 

tl;dr

1. they can't detect if you bot if you aren't an obvious 6hour-logged in bot

2. They have no way to tell what software you have running on your computer

3. Many things they say are to be taken with a grain of salt. Remember the swiftswitch crisis? Left hand doesn't know what the right is doing.

[JoWie]

A few points:

...

 

Software patents are illegal in the UK (and the rest of the EU)

 

...

 

Doesn't matter. Since Jagex's product is used in the US, they can be sued in a US court.

 

Yes, but the ramifications for losing such a lawsuit are a lot less severe. They can not be fined or shut down. One thing that could happen though, is the seizure of their domain (.com, .org, .net, et cetera belongs to the US), this has happened before.

[Pete Party]

/me has a bid talk with some people in my clan and the general agreement is:

 

-Botting can't be detected if it clicks the screen. Why? Because a program clicking the screen = mousekeys clicking the screen = mouse button clicking screen.

Also, they can't detect if you are using mousekeys, a bot, or something like AHK unless they install software on your computer

 

-You can bot all you want. Though don't look like a bot. Why? A lvl 4 making red spider eggs in edgevill.. that can get locked in a room for hours on end, and that does NOT log out, is OBVIOUSLY a bot. Whereas someone who is alching via an autoclicker, and chatting, does NOT look like a bot.

Why? Because a click is a click, it is pretty easy to position the alch spell and item on the sane X and Y coords, only requireing you to left click every few seconds. Mousekeys is the EXACT SAME THING. 5 5 5 5 5, lclick lclick lclick...

 

-Not only that, Jagex never says what CAN and can not be used to play the game. First, they said "1 input = 1 output", which is fine. It covers EVERYTHING. But there are loopholes in there. Did you know microsoft has a built in macro? It's called "character repeat". Holding down a mouse button.... repeats it. 1 input for an infinite amount of outputs.

Also, they've claimed that you can use no "third party programs" to play the game. Windows, OSX, ubuntu, your keyboard, mouse, and video card drivers are all third party. Third-party by what defination? Jagex? Everything aside from the game is third party.

 

tl;dr

1. they can't detect if you bot if you aren't an obvious 6hour-logged in bot

2. They have no way to tell what software you have running on your computer

3. Many things they say are to be taken with a grain of salt. Remember the swiftswitch crisis? Left hand doesn't know what the right is doing.

 

- Botting can be detected if it clicks the screen; only bots where the mouse does not have to move can't. get a mouse tracker, see if you can move your mouse the exact same route thousands of times and on the millisecond precise and get the clicks also at the right X and Y coordinations.

Oh yes Jagex could record your X and Y movement of your mouse, how else do they know where you click.

 

- 1 input is 1 output, that means no repeaters that make 1 input give inf. output.

 

- the third party software is kinda the same as the 1 input 1 output, no software that plays the game for you.

[Stev]

A few points:

 

Runescape has the same rights as any other program ran under your user. Normally, java applets that are ran inside the browser are sandboxed and are very restricted. However java applications can be signed and request the user for more privileges (the "yes/no/always trust jagex" dialog you see the first time you load up runescape).

You can then do everything other applications can by either executing another program or by using a Java Native Interface library.

 

Software patents are illegal in the UK (and the rest of the EU)

 

Personally I am against software like punkbuster and warden because of the privacy issues. I've played americas army years ago and punkbuster would take screenshots and send them to the server you are playing on. Some servers would even give a public link, which let everyone read in on your xfire conversations.

 

Bot writers could simply supply a virtual machine image which has only the bare minimums to run runescape. This would allow the average user to circumvent such anti-cheat software.

I too am against software such as PunkBuster. There would be a huge fuss if they took this approach, and we can write working bypasses in no time at all.

[Wkw]

/me has a bid talk with some people in my clan and the general agreement is:

 

-Botting can't be detected if it clicks the screen. Why? Because a program clicking the screen = mousekeys clicking the screen = mouse button clicking screen.

Also, they can't detect if you are using mousekeys, a bot, or something like AHK unless they install software on your computer

 

-You can bot all you want. Though don't look like a bot. Why? A lvl 4 making red spider eggs in edgevill.. that can get locked in a room for hours on end, and that does NOT log out, is OBVIOUSLY a bot. Whereas someone who is alching via an autoclicker, and chatting, does NOT look like a bot.

Why? Because a click is a click, it is pretty easy to position the alch spell and item on the sane X and Y coords, only requireing you to left click every few seconds. Mousekeys is the EXACT SAME THING. 5 5 5 5 5, lclick lclick lclick...

 

-Not only that, Jagex never says what CAN and can not be used to play the game. First, they said "1 input = 1 output", which is fine. It covers EVERYTHING. But there are loopholes in there. Did you know microsoft has a built in macro? It's called "character repeat". Holding down a mouse button.... repeats it. 1 input for an infinite amount of outputs.

Also, they've claimed that you can use no "third party programs" to play the game. Windows, OSX, ubuntu, your keyboard, mouse, and video card drivers are all third party. Third-party by what defination? Jagex? Everything aside from the game is third party.

 

tl;dr

1. they can't detect if you bot if you aren't an obvious 6hour-logged in bot

2. They have no way to tell what software you have running on your computer

3. Many things they say are to be taken with a grain of salt. Remember the swiftswitch crisis? Left hand doesn't know what the right is doing.

 

- Botting can be detected if it clicks the screen; only bots where the mouse does not have to move can't. get a mouse tracker, see if you can move your mouse the exact same route thousands of times and on the millisecond precise and get the clicks also at the right X and Y coordinations.

Oh yes Jagex could record your X and Y movement of your mouse, how else do they know where you click.

 

- 1 input is 1 output, that means no repeaters that make 1 input give inf. output.

 

- the third party software is kinda the same as the 1 input 1 output, no software that plays the game for you.

 

I have no doubt that they can track where on the game client you can click, but they can NOT track mouse movement.

 

Fletching bolts for example, you could simply use a script that is four buttons

-Left click

-Move mouse left X pixles

-left click

-move mouse right X pixles

100% legal (same as mousekeys), AND you're clicking the same pixle many times quickly.

 

Granted, 99% of macros will do the exact same thing, but there is absolutely no way for JAgex to differentiate between a macro clicker, or a script/mousekeys like program doing 1in for 1out.

 

Something I aught to add, another reason why they're so full of themselves is that they've said "mousekeys are 100% A-ok!", but "something that does the same thing as mousekeys is not allowed!"

Contradiction.

[Pete Party]

/me has a bid talk with some people in my clan and the general agreement is:

 

-Botting can't be detected if it clicks the screen. Why? Because a program clicking the screen = mousekeys clicking the screen = mouse button clicking screen.

Also, they can't detect if you are using mousekeys, a bot, or something like AHK unless they install software on your computer

 

-You can bot all you want. Though don't look like a bot. Why? A lvl 4 making red spider eggs in edgevill.. that can get locked in a room for hours on end, and that does NOT log out, is OBVIOUSLY a bot. Whereas someone who is alching via an autoclicker, and chatting, does NOT look like a bot.

Why? Because a click is a click, it is pretty easy to position the alch spell and item on the sane X and Y coords, only requireing you to left click every few seconds. Mousekeys is the EXACT SAME THING. 5 5 5 5 5, lclick lclick lclick...

 

-Not only that, Jagex never says what CAN and can not be used to play the game. First, they said "1 input = 1 output", which is fine. It covers EVERYTHING. But there are loopholes in there. Did you know microsoft has a built in macro? It's called "character repeat". Holding down a mouse button.... repeats it. 1 input for an infinite amount of outputs.

Also, they've claimed that you can use no "third party programs" to play the game. Windows, OSX, ubuntu, your keyboard, mouse, and video card drivers are all third party. Third-party by what defination? Jagex? Everything aside from the game is third party.

 

tl;dr

1. they can't detect if you bot if you aren't an obvious 6hour-logged in bot

2. They have no way to tell what software you have running on your computer

3. Many things they say are to be taken with a grain of salt. Remember the swiftswitch crisis? Left hand doesn't know what the right is doing.

 

- Botting can be detected if it clicks the screen; only bots where the mouse does not have to move can't. get a mouse tracker, see if you can move your mouse the exact same route thousands of times and on the millisecond precise and get the clicks also at the right X and Y coordinations.

Oh yes Jagex could record your X and Y movement of your mouse, how else do they know where you click.

 

- 1 input is 1 output, that means no repeaters that make 1 input give inf. output.

 

- the third party software is kinda the same as the 1 input 1 output, no software that plays the game for you.

 

I have no doubt that they can track where on the game client you can click, but they can NOT track mouse movement.

 

Fletching bolts for example, you could simply use a script that is four buttons

-Left click

-Move mouse left X pixles

-left click

-move mouse right X pixles

100% legal (same as mousekeys), AND you're clicking the same pixle many times quickly.

 

Granted, 99% of macros will do the exact same thing, but there is absolutely no way for JAgex to differentiate between a macro clicker, or a script/mousekeys like program doing 1in for 1out.

 

Something I aught to add, another reason why they're so full of themselves is that they've said "mousekeys are 100% A-ok!", but "something that does the same thing as mousekeys is not allowed!"

Contradiction.

 

Uhhmm ever moved your mouse around runescape? It detects where you are holding it, if you hold it on a person it shows something in the top left corner.

 

Do as I advised and get a mouse tracker, see how precise mouseclicks actually are, its not possible to click the exact same pixel a thousand times in a row with the speeds bots do it.

Like I said, it is possible with alcing because you can set it up to where you don't have to move your mouse, but as soon as you do something where you have to move your mouse then it detectable.

Offcourse not forever because bots will be made that they move their pointer around randomly and that they click randomly within range of the item and then they will also have random millisecond timers to not be detectable to time sensors.

 

Please enlighten me about the mousekeys story.

[Wkw]

If Jagex were to record and process all mouse movement you make on the game client, I highly doubt that it would be less then ~20bytes/sec. They would have to have at LEAST 12 bytes for every instance they record your position, and do it at least every 600ms. Though I'm not 100% sure on how they'd do it, but I'm sure that any kind of mouse tracking would be not only a form of spyware, but would require a large amount of bandwidth on the client side upload.

 

As for mousekeys, they move the mouse with a jump. not a smooth movement, as anyone would notice if they've ever used them. Most scripts and macros do the exact same thing. You can't ban someone who is using a bot to fletch or drop for example without also banning those w [garden tool] use mousekeys, less you want a very very large amount of false positives.

[WolfieMario]

If Jagex were to record and process all mouse movement you make on the game client, I highly doubt that it would be less then ~20bytes/sec. They would have to have at LEAST 12 bytes for every instance they record your position, and do it at least every 600ms. Though I'm not 100% sure on how they'd do it, but I'm sure that any kind of mouse tracking would be not only a form of spyware, but would require a large amount of bandwidth on the client side upload.

 

As for mousekeys, they move the mouse with a jump. not a smooth movement, as anyone would notice if they've ever used them. Most scripts and macros do the exact same thing. You can't ban someone who is using a bot to fletch or drop for example without also banning those w [garden tool] use mousekeys, less you want a very very large amount of false positives.

Not everything has to be sent to the server for processing. The client could have mouse motion tracking built in, and only bother to flag if the mouse moves in perfectly straight lines all the time. In fact, I had a friend who wrote his own bot a while back that didn't randomize its mouse movements, and it got banned a day later (on a throwaway account, that is; he only wrote the bot for fun). (Note to Tip.It mods: not encouraging botting; simply stating a fact; the friend who wrote the bot doesn't even bot anyways).

 

And there's nothing too difficult in tracking mouse movements; I could set it up in Flash or Java without any effort. There's also nothing to consider it a form of spyware: you don't need to install any software on the user's computer to track their mouse movement, and you could only track movement when they're over your window (it wouldn't work if the window was minimized). Honestly, if you think mouse tracking in a game is spyware, you must think its spyware for a game to be able to tell what keys you're pressing - after all, that would be a keylogger, right? :roll:

 

Anyways, yes, you're correct in saying that mousekeys hopping can't be differentiated from a bot doing mousekey hopping. However, mousekeys can't teleport your cursor to exactly the right location; you can only move in increments in the four cardinal and four diagonal directions, so it's still not entirely impossible to differentiate it (though you would still be able to confuse botters and people using touchscreens, which brings a new argument: if RS on iPad does ever become commonplace, will innocent people get banned? That is, assuming Jagex does any bot detection anymore at all, of course).

[Ginger_Warrior]

The way I see it, botting will always be a blight on RuneScape and most other MMOs because grinding is so fundamental to extending the gameplay and keeping the subscriptions rolling in. The game's central mechanism to keep people hooked produces a necessary evil, therefore they'll never try too hard to eradicate it. If anything, the presence of bots proves the game is still working, from their perspective at least, in that players are still hunting achievements, even if cheating is going on.

[Pete Party]

I read this article, pretty good:

 

(pdf link) http://mll.csie.ntu.edu.tw/papers/icec2008.pdf

[WolfieMario]

I read this article, pretty good:

 

(pdf link) http://mll.csie.ntu.edu.tw/papers/icec2008.pdf

I read the whole thing, and that actually seems pretty interesting and effective. However,

"It is a general technique that can be applied to any game in which the avatars movement is controlled by the players directly."

It wouldn't apply to RS nearly as well, if at all. In RS, your avatar's movements aren't controlled directly by you (they can be, if you manually click each space you want to move and only move one step at a time...). The game uses its own built-in pathfinding to make you walk/run to a destination whenever you click the minimap, an object, or a space to walk to. You don't determine whether your character runs on the left or right side of the street; you don't choose whether or not they make zigzagging motions. The outcome of a bot clicking a green dragon will be exactly the same as the outcome of a player clicking a green dragon, assuming they are standing in the same spot. An equivalent of the Fig.1 graph (from the paper) for most botted activities in RuneScape would show you pretty much the exact same thing for bots and regular players. So sadly, although that detection scheme seems great and even works in practice (with Quake 2 as the case study), it would not be possible in RuneScape without some major gameplay changes :|

[Pete Party]

They could give a few people a task to test out bot busting.

[Mazhar]

bots make addy bars/99 smith cheap :thumbup:

[RSBDavid]

If they implemented this, the game would lag even more in areas where more that 20 players are in. The best option for Jagex is to use the applet as a means of launching the game by invoking native libraries. All of the game core code needs to be rewritten in c++/c and then Jagex could just render graphics to the Java canvas using JAWT.

[Pete Party]

If they implemented this, the game would lag even more in areas where more that 20 players are in. The best option for Jagex is to use the applet as a means of launching the game by invoking native libraries. All of the game core code needs to be rewritten in c++/c and then Jagex could just render graphics to the Java canvas using JAWT.

 

If that already makes the servers lagg then they should buy something better.

[curtis95112]

This doesn't have to be permanently on for every player.

Jagex could monitor a randomly selected sample for a short time, then monitor another random sample for a short time and so on. Suspicious people would be flagged and permanently monitored until they are banned or found to be not botting.

 

That being said, Jagex probably already does this.

[TheGuthixSword]

Maybe because Jagex wants to keep the game browser-based and such software requires some sort of administrator permission which you can't get from a browser? (If that made sense lol, I don't know my software too well).

This is exactly why. If they implemented this, it would require quite a few things that a browser couldn't do. Not that I wouldn't like to see a box version on RuneScape with HD graphics, security,ANTI-HACK/bot software. But I just can't see that happening soon. <_<

[GuidesForScapers]

Or Jagex could just l2captcha. Effectively stops botters, unless all botters wished to use a service like decaptcha. Which would become very costly, and considering how many botters refuse to purchase membership it is likely to stop a lot of them.

 

And yes, there are easy ways to make it so that the bots couldn't easily get the correct captcha code. Hell, even i can do it in VB.NET.

 

Simple answer is, Jagex do not want rid of bots.

[Heisenberg]

Or Jagex could just l2captcha. Effectively stops botters, unless all botters wished to use a service like decaptcha. Which would become very costly, and considering how many botters refuse to purchase membership it is likely to stop a lot of them.

 

And yes, there are easy ways to make it so that the bots couldn't easily get the correct captcha code. Hell, even i can do it in VB.NET.

 

Simple answer is, Jagex do not want rid of bots.

 

Hahahahaha...

 

:wall:

[GuidesForScapers]

Or Jagex could just l2captcha. Effectively stops botters, unless all botters wished to use a service like decaptcha. Which would become very costly, and considering how many botters refuse to purchase membership it is likely to stop a lot of them.

 

And yes, there are easy ways to make it so that the bots couldn't easily get the correct captcha code. Hell, even i can do it in VB.NET.

 

Simple answer is, Jagex do not want rid of bots.

 

Hahahahaha...

 

:wall:

Nice counter point, bro.

[Heisenberg]

Or Jagex could just l2captcha. Effectively stops botters, unless all botters wished to use a service like decaptcha. Which would become very costly, and considering how many botters refuse to purchase membership it is likely to stop a lot of them.

 

And yes, there are easy ways to make it so that the bots couldn't easily get the correct captcha code. Hell, even i can do it in VB.NET.

 

Simple answer is, Jagex do not want rid of bots.

 

Hahahahaha...

 

:wall:

Nice counter point, bro.

 

Thanks. I considered the triple facepalm but I realized your brand of ignorance is better equated to a head meeting wall type scenario.

 

The laugh was purely cosmetic but I believe it did the post justice.

[Stev]

Or Jagex could just l2captcha. Effectively stops botters, unless all botters wished to use a service like decaptcha. Which would become very costly, and considering how many botters refuse to purchase membership it is likely to stop a lot of them.

 

And yes, there are easy ways to make it so that the bots couldn't easily get the correct captcha code. Hell, even i can do it in VB.NET.

 

Simple answer is, Jagex do not want rid of bots.

Yeah, this might get rid of the one or two bot here and there, but the bot companies (Which are the real problem here) wouldn't hesitate to develop or even buy readily available software which could beat captcha.

 

Captcha is not the way to go.