Third Bind Guide and/or Discussion.

[Obtaurian]

Third Bind Guide and/or Discussion.

 

* Certain sections of this guide are somewhat out-of-date. Please hold while I redirect your call.

 

[spoiler=Introduction.]The purpose of this guide/topic is twofold:

1. 
    
   
2. To provide insight into the proper use of third binds to maximize room-clearing efficiency.
   
3. To provide a point of discussion and research for furthering knowledge of combat strategy in dungeoneering.
   

 

 

[spoiler=Celestial catalytic staff / empowered fire staff.]

/

 

Used with: Primal battleaxe.

 

Monsters: Forgotten warriors, high-level skeletons, fire giants, level 169+ ghosts, demons, brutes, earth warriors,

 

Bosses: Skeletal horde (with fire surge), skeletal trio warrior (and archer when it prays melee), Necrolord, Dreadnaught, Hope Devourer, World-gorger (the mage eye).

 

Strategy: A celestial staff can be thought of as the hexhunter's counterpart. With a t10 ring and fire surge, it has higher DPS than a primal 2h with turmoil on many monsters (note that this does not apply to an empowered fire staff).

 

- A celestial staff has two major "drawbacks" that users must always be aware of and try to work around:

1. 
    
   
2. It consumes fire runes very quickly. The user must be on the lookout for essence and fire rune drops at all times, and only stop to make fire runes when appropriate. It's also helpful to have other players craft fire runes for the celestial staff user when they can. The start table usually has a decent stack of fire runes; 1,250 fire runes is 125 casts of fire surge; do not make more than necessary.
   
3. Overuse can lead to an empty CSB. Logging in and out replenishes the CSB, but deletes the player's personal gate. Players should be extremely conscious of rune consumption and try to avoid having to logout. Staff users should be chosen to do portal rooms in warped floors if possible.
   

- Lazy celestial staff users who can't be bothered to keep their fire rune supply nice and healthy would be better off binding an empowered fire staff. The empowered staff hits higher with fire surge than a celestial staff does with air surge. Obviously this is less than ideal.

 

- Room-clearing strategy is similar to what hex users do. The player should always enter a room with their magic ring activated, focusing on forgotten warriors and all other magic-weak monsters listed (after shades are taken care of; do not use fire surge on shades!). Once the necessary monsters are down, the staff user can continue fire surging zombies, skeletons, and anything else that isn't resistant to magic depending on fire rune supply and charges remaining in the CSB (should not be done by empowered fire staff users or with wind surge).

 

- Celestial staff users should start their floors on blazer, switching to t10 blitzer when fire runes are plentiful (note that this does not mean having both magic rings on quickswitch). Players who plan on binding celestial staffs should focus on leveling blazer to t10 before blitzer; blitzer only becomes worthwhile at t10 whereas blazer is always useful.

 

- A battleaxe is the preferred weapon to pair with a staff because it's better than a 2h against zombies and skeletons, which is likely what'll be left to kill after all the mage-weak monsters are gone. Ease of switching is not a valid reason, as a player's APM (actions per minute) should be good enough to switch with a 2h anyway.

 

- Kiting, safe-spotting, and side-stepping are extremely important for staff users as a means to reduce prayer and food consumption.

 

- Having more than one staff on a team may present difficulties; essence and rune drops are likely to be fought over, greatly diminishing the usefulness of all staff users on the team.

 

 

[spoiler=Primal gauntlets.]

 

Used with: Primal battleaxe, primal 2h.

 

Strategy: A very simple item that augments the user's strength while providing a tiny bit of melee defense. These fashionable orange mittens make the primal battleaxe unequivocally better than a prom 2h when used properly. Interestingly enough, a primal battleaxe with gauntlets provides higher raw DPS than a 2h with a rapier, but lacks the stab option of the rapier combo. Primal gauntlets are the first of two offensive third binds that a team can have multiples of without ever diminishing its usefulness.

 

 

[spoiler=Blood necklace.]

 

Used with: Primal battleaxe, primal 2h.

 

Strategy: A blood necklace offers the second highest strength bonus of any non-weapon in dungeoneering (primal gauntlets are the first), as well as a wide range of significant accuracy and defense bonuses. It has no level requirement, thus making it the best 3rd bind for any non-maxed player, hands down. It's the second of the two offensive third binds that a team can have multiples of without ever diminishing its usefulness.

 

- With a blood necklace, it's important to always be conscious of the fact that each monster near you improves your overall DPS by way of the passive damaging/healing effect (40 damage per monster within a 3x3 square per 15 seconds). If you're going to be praying melee anyway, it's always best to drag any melee monsters toward you either by attacking them or removing your hood (if there aren't a lot of rangers as well). In rooms where micromanaging monsters isn't possible because of high damage, always look for clusters of monsters and stand in them to maximize passive healing and damage. Be aware of other blood necklace users and work with them to herd monsters more quickly.

 

- The healing provided by a blood necklace is non-trivial. In addition to guardian rooms, the healing ability is useful in mercenary rooms, the second form of Flesh-spoiler (stand on top of the player the spawns are attacking), and Necrolord when tanking the skeletons.

 

- It’s useful to let the blood necklace kill level 3 monsters so as to not waste attack turns. In some situations it may be useful to let the necklace finish other monsters off so as to avoid overkill loss.

 

- It’s important to note that the blood necklace saves both an inventory space (as opposed to secondary weapons like hexes, rapiers, etc) and an equipment slot (there's no other useful amulet in dungeoneering that can be gotten as a drop).

 

 

[spoiler=Hexhunter bow.]

 

Used with: Promethium or primal 2h.

 

Monsters: Forgotten mages, necros, dragons, demons, hobgoblins (optional), brutes, books, skeletal mages (with ranged armor/potion), reborn mages, ghost room ghosts (except level 199 ghosts), ramokee stormbringer, ramokee skinweaver, mercenary leader.

 

Bosses: Shadow-forger, Pummeler, Geomancer, Bulwark (after breaking armor), Skeletal Horde, Cursebearer, Skeletal trio sorcerer, Necrolord, Runebound Behemoth, Gravecreeper (with boosts, armor, or ragers), Flesh-spoiler, Blink (with boosts, armor, or ragers), World-gorger (needs at least three hexes to be effective), Kal’Ger (mage form).

 

Strategy: If you find yourself on a team with a hex, follow this rule above all else: DO NOT ATTACK SINGLE MAGES/NECROS/REBORNS. EVER. DON'T DO IT. It's only ever viable to attack mages when there's more than one and they pose an immediate threat (necros and reborns in particular). Note that this does not necessarily apply to skeleton mages.

 

- Similar to a celestial staff, hex users should always enter guardian rooms with their bows equipped and desperado activated. A single hex is more effective against a t11 mage than five primal 2hs with turmoil, so as mentioned, it's extremely important for non-hexes to leave mages alone in most situations.

 

- Hexes should make use of safe-spotting, side-stepping, and kiting to avoid melee monsters while hexing.

 

- Ranged armor from drops and the start table should always be given to hexes. The bow itself has low accuracy against some monsters and every additional accuracy boost is non-trivial. With just a stegoleather body, players can effectively hex skeleton mages that otherwise have too much defense.

 

- Speaking of ranged armor, hex users should learn to hunt dinos and craft armor lossless. Skinning a dino produces 2-4 hides, so chaps (3 hides) and vambs (1 hide) should be the first pieces of armor made. It's also worthwhile for non-hex teammates to make ranged armor for the hex. Ranged armor is especially effective at bosses (Blink and Gravecreeper in particular).

 

- A nifty trick known to just about any f2p PKer is the ranged->2h switch. A player can run towards a monster while shooting arrows, then switch to a 2h to deliver the KO or just to do a little extra damage without losing time. This is especially useful for shades, skeleton mages, lower level monsters, and dogs. The switch must be very quick to be effective.

 

- Shades, though they have a magic attack, are not particularly vulnerable to hexes, so the hex->2h switch should be used when possible in the off-chance that the hex hit is high. Otherwise, just stick to melee for shades. It's sometimes useful to use the speed of the hex to aggro shades in monoliths.

 

- Ghost room ghosts have lower defense than normal ghosts. Aside from the level 199 ghosts (unless the hex user is sporting some leather pants or is potted), any of the ghosts can be hexed effectively. If the hex user has plenty of prayer, it's useful for him/her to aggro every ghost in the room so as to save prayer and food for everyone else.

 

- Hexes can easily solo Necrolord without taking any damage. It is highly recommended to use a strong ranged potion and a deathslinger, and either the hex user or a teammate should see to making them as soon as possible; the time and ammo saved is very much worth the effort. Necrolord has two types of attacks aside from summoning skeletons:

1. 
    
   
2. His standard "earth" magic attack that can be negated with protection prayers.
   
3. His "special attacks," which are his binds and curses. The special attacks can be evaded by moving exactly two tiles away (read: putting two tiles between the player's current and previous locations).
   

When the skeletons are summoned, the player must teleport out using a personal gatestone and either get prayer or GGS to help with whatever the team is doing for about twenty to thirty seconds. If Necrolord is very low on LP and the player has enough food, it's sometimes useful to simply switch to protect melee for the skeletons and tank the magic attacks so as to kill Necrolord without having to teleport out again.

 

- Assuming plenty of food and a bloodrager, Cursebearer and Flesh-spoiler can be soloed, too. However, it's often not worth the food/deaths/effort (this applies to Cursebearer more than Flesh-spoiler).

 

- It's useful for hexes to snipe mages in upcoming GDs or skill/puzzle rooms to save the team food/prayer/stress.

 

- Having more than three hexes on a team can be detrimental due to the lack of CSBs. In such occurrences, the hex users should take care to pick up all mage runes to compensate. This is especially problematic on low warped floors.

 

- Gravecreeper/entgallow longbows should be salvaged from dead forgotten rangers to be used on ranged-weak, non-hexable monsters like brutes and dogs.

 

 

[spoiler=Primal pickaxe.]Just kidding.

 

 

[spoiler=A Slight Diversion: Two-handed swords and Primal battleaxes.]

/ vs.

 

- Two-handed swords and battleaxes serve different purposes when room-clearing. Battleaxes should focus on zombies, most skeletons, and lower defense/level monsters. Two-handed swords should focus on t11 rangers and other monsters with non-trivial defense. Assuming ideal conditions, proper room-clearing strategy, and efficient turmoil/piety-flashing, battleaxe users should deal out more damage than 2h users over time. However, 2hs are more useful on un-rager'd bosses than a battleaxe, which isn't uncommon.

 

- 3rd bind choice largely affects main bind choice, and all pairings recommended in this guide are for the purpose of maximizing overall DPS and effectiveness (pairing a battleaxe with a rapier, for example, is largely redundant; the two weapons encroach on each other's territory in guardian rooms).

 

- Because a battleaxe is more difficult to use properly, it is highly recommended that all players stick to a prom 2h until they've learned proper room-clearing strategy and prioritization.

 

- All players should learn to turmoil/piety-flash consistently and efficiently to make the most out of either weapon.

 

 

[spoiler=Credits.]First and foremost I'd like to thank myself for existing; it's not easy being the epitome of awesome. However, praise must be awarded to certain dudes and dudettes who offered criticism, knowledge, research, and advice that was immensely helpful in getting this guide written in a timely manner. Certain sections were written by and/or paraphrased from said dudes/dudettes. My unwitting sheep esteemed colleagues are, in what may or may not be a very particular order:

 

- Green Rect

- Grimy Bunyip

- 0xpx0

- Michael

- Cheeesy

- Rocked

- The Bemis

- Accept Death

- The Ancient

- Matt Marche

- xAYSx DPS

- Enaid Anwen

- Nikcevich

- Gwynrwyn

- Vexn

- Jmmy

- Pachelbel

- Tui

- Losing Games

- A Final Name

- Golvellius

 

[PereGrin]

Nice guide. I will probably go get my third bind in a few weeks, now that finals are almost over. Probably going to go with the mittens.

[Cactuaar]

Is a platebody or sagi body even worth binding for keyers? Or personal preference in that case?

[Obtaurian]

Is a platebody or sagi body even worth binding for keyers? Or personal preference in that case?

 

I didn't cover armor binds because there's not a lot to them other than reducing damage. In my opinion, you go 1-99 without an armor bind, so why do you suddenly need armor at 100+? :P But in all seriousness, I think armor is perfectly fine for people who key the vast majority of the time, so long as they're not using it as a crutch; keyers should learn to avoid death without armor before they bind armor.

 

If I had to recommend an offensive third bind to a keyer, I'd say celestial staff. Just make sure you have a reliable teammate to make you fire runes.

 

EDIT: Sagittarian body isn't really worth it without a hex. Sagittarian protects you from shades while plates protect you from everything else.

[aerendil]

WHAAAAAAAAAAAATTTTTTT WHERES MY PRIMAL SPEAR BIND OPTION!????@@@@@

:rolleyes:

[haqiang]

Some interesting fact I have found out about Cele Catastaff

 

While tui was soloing her entire floor for lulz, I made spirit bloom armor to see how much +magic bonus I can get to push the "magic resistant mob" into magable range.

 

With 3/4 spirit bloom and approximately 80-90 magic bonus with Cele Cata staff, I was able to wreck several T11 mages using fire surge with fairly low splash rate. It was to a point that mage died significantly faster than what usually it would take me when I melee it with primal baxe. It's something worth testing out with a larger set of data, but I can be sure that if you can somehow loot from start room and mage mob drops enough magic gear, you might as well mage the mage for faster kill.

[xpx]

Some interesting fact I have found out about Cele Catastaff

 

While tui was soloing her entire floor for lulz, I made spirit bloom armor to see how much +magic bonus I can get to push the "magic resistant mob" into magable range.

 

With 3/4 spirit bloom and approximately 80-90 magic bonus with Cele Cata staff, I was able to wreck several T11 mages using fire surge with fairly low splash rate. It was to a point that mage died significantly faster than what usually it would take me when I melee it with primal baxe. It's something worth testing out with a larger set of data, but I can be sure that if you can somehow loot from start room and mage mob drops enough magic gear, you might as well mage the mage for faster kill.

Making mage armor= REALLY slow, so the max mage bonus you can possibly test at is ccs+csb+neck+hood, which adds up to around 40, and i don't think that would be anywhere near enough. You also have to always supply enough fire runes to be effective, which can become a problem.

[Zaaps1]

Primal pickaxe.

Just kidding.

 

I am offend.

 

Celesial Cata. is dropped by Cursebearer, right? I wonder if it would be worth doing low abandons to hunt for one.

[xpx]

Primal pickaxe.

Just kidding.

 

I am offend.

 

Celesial Cata. is dropped by Cursebearer, right? I wonder if it would be worth doing low abandons to hunt for one.

As cursebearer has his own floors(i think like 15-17) it's best to do c6 smalls on those floors for one. Just pop in to dgs and you should have a staff hunt team in no time(charlie got his after like 7 seconds of asking).

[Zaaps1]

Hmm ok. I'll be doing that any time they decide to give me a surgebox bind. Laws aren't really too useful.

[Ousekeys]

I have seen a fair few just doing normal 5:5 larges, guess you could bind an enpowered fire staff until you get a CCS drop.

[green9090]

- Because a battleaxe is more difficult to use properly, it is highly recommended that all players stick to a prom 2h until they've learned proper room-clearing strategy and prioritization. Proper battleaxe usage includes consistent turmoil/piety-flashing.

 

I don't quite agree with this. Prayer flashing is involved in proper room clearing strategy with melee, period- a 2h is not an excuse to slack off. Battleaxe does benefit slightly more from prayer boosts than 2h, being a faster weapon, but if you're too lazy to pray flash with either you're still looking at superior raw DPS from the battleaxe. If you're room clearing properly (sticking on shades/zombies/skeles for the most part), you'll still see the battleaxe shine over a 2h regardless.

 

I'm not sure how primal battleaxe is harder to use, either. Both weapons just involve memorizing a monster order and sticking to it. I guess battleaxe has a little less breathing times between attacks?

 

Great guide, anyway! Glad to see this finally make it out of its top sekrit location. Hope we'll start seeing some people using their third binds more effectively/getting better third binds.

[ErnieLoco]

Nice, clear guide. I appreciate the discussion about 2h vs b ax strategies as well.

 

So in general you'd pair up b ax + CCS and 2h + hex. What about hex/CCS vs blood necklace/gaunts? Does the extra melee DPS of the necklace/gaunts make them worth binding over a strong second style of attack like hex or CCS?

 

More specifically, in my case, I've got primal b ax and CSB bound. Assuming I wouldn't get a blood necklace right away once I hit 100, would it be worth binding primal gauntlets, or should I just bind a CCS right away?

[green9090]

CCS and primal gaunts are both very good for different reasons. It's great for a team to have one CCS, annoying to have two, so we definitely don't want too many people to have a CCS in DGS. Primal gaunts and blood necks, by contrast, are ALWAYS a good thing to have.

 

Since CCS is also a difficult bind to use, I'd say take that if you're willing to power up blazer and blitzer rings to 10 and learn to really use it well, crafting fire runes and maging all the right stuff. If you're going to be kind of lazy about your staff, you'd be better off using primal gaunts. CCS is a bind that needs a pro to use it well, gaunts not so much. I'd take a blood neck over either, and a hex over all three.

[SirIzenhime]

rapier on skeletal horde?

[Obtaurian]

rapier on skeletal horde?

 

Skeletal horde skeletons have zero defense. I can hex the melee skeletons with near 100% accuracy.

 

And Green I'll amend in the guide that prayer flashing is for battleaxes and 2hs. :P

[Zaaps1]

So if you have a CCS, you have both mage rings on quick-switch? Or do you just start off on Blazer and slow-switch to Blitzer later, keeping Berserker on Quick Switch?

[No_one_cares]

An addition to the blood neck part would be that the spec only affects monsters in combat (with the one exception of thunderous boss room mages).

[ghjkl]

An addition to the blood neck part would be that the spec only affects monsters in combat (with the one exception of thunderous boss room mages).

wrong

[Obtaurian]

So if you have a CCS, you have both mage rings on quick-switch? Or do you just start off on Blazer and slow-switch to Blitzer later, keeping Berserker on Quick Switch?

 

Yeah, always be on mage/zerker. Just slow switch to blitzer later.

[haqiang]

i'm just suggesting if you pick up mage loot along the way, i have gotten pieces off spawn and dead mages pretty often to rack up some serious + magic bonuses. I'm just saying, if you some how ended up with 3 or 4 mage armors mid dung, mage the mage. making armor is not worth the time or the effort.

[z0diark]

It would help if you explained what kiting meant and how to sidestep effectively. Otherwise I like it :D

[Dragonlordjl]

If you already have a necklace, is it worth breaking for a CCstaff? Since, like... DGS needs some more staff users to compensate for the amount of hexers?

[notasoupbowl]

Imo For keyers;

Hex > CCS > Emp fire > Plate > Blood neck > Sag body > Gaunts > Rapier

Although that is only if you are good at safespotting, and assumes your team is good enough to sometimes make you range armour & usually fire runes.

With bad teams, plate and ccs switch.

Also plate is very close to CCS & emp fire for occult, but not nearly as good for warped.

 

@ Everto, no.

[Mihaly]

Apparently melee works better on geomancer than hex, even though it's a mage based boss.

 

Melee with turmoil hits more constant than hex, even with rigour. (Quote from Ill key stfu).