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Marijuana Legalization


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#81
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Weed is cheaper and easier to get with prohibition in place, but I would rather it just be legal like tobacco. It's been proven that it's far less harmful, yet remains illegal in 50 states except for medical.

Eliminating prohibition also reduces the cost of fighting drugs, reduces (probably eliminates) prison crowding in the US, gives extra income, contributes to biofuel use, and eliminates the gateway drug theory (the gateway theory is right, but only because the exposure to illegal drugs is much higher with prohibition in place).
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#82
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The funniest part about "Legalize it, regulate it, tax the crap out of it" is how the argument ignores the fact that there is an entire black market of people already buying, selling, transporting, etc. They don't care about the law, why do you think they'd start caring once it is legal?


There's a black market BECAUSE of prohibition. Have you even heard of Al Capone?

Also, you're not a libertarian.

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#83
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The funniest part about "Legalize it, regulate it, tax the crap out of it" is how the argument ignores the fact that there is an entire black market of people already buying, selling, transporting, etc. They don't care about the law, why do you think they'd start caring once it is legal?


There's a black market BECAUSE of prohibition. Have you even heard of Al Capone?

Also, you're not a libertarian.



There is also a large black market in tobacco and Alcohol currently, even though it is legal. You cannot tell me they are there because of phoibi... never mind.
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#84
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The funniest part about "Legalize it, regulate it, tax the crap out of it" is how the argument ignores the fact that there is an entire black market of people already buying, selling, transporting, etc. They don't care about the law, why do you think they'd start caring once it is legal?


There's a black market BECAUSE of prohibition. Have you even heard of Al Capone?

Also, you're not a libertarian.



There is also a large black market in tobacco and Alcohol currently, even though it is legal. You cannot tell me they are there because of phoibi... never mind.


Really? Maybe in Appalachia and Tennessee for grain alcohol and moonshine (things that are illegal in many surrounding areas). But people aren't killing each other over it because there is little demand for it. Seriously, where is this black market for alcohol and tobacco.

#85
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I feel that the US/Mexico drug war is closely linked to immigration anyway... If you stop illegals from entering the country, you stop the drugs some of them will transport with them.

I also think that the arguments made for and against drug legalization are very similar to the arguments made for and against prostitution. The people for legalization like to argue in the cleanest sense - "two consenting adults... with an exchange of money...", or "on a vacation or on a weekend... in the privacy of a basement..."
I'd probably be much more supportive of legalization if there were rapid tests to determine how high people are. Operating a motor vehicle while high is a matter of public safety, in the same way of drunk driving.

Unfortunately there is no breathalyzer for pot, and proving someone is high will be much more difficult.

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#86
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I'm sure there are field tests that can give you a fair idea like they have for alcohol.
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#87
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I feel that the US/Mexico drug war is closely linked to immigration anyway... If you stop illegals from entering the country, you stop the drugs some of them will transport with them.


Well you kind of have it backwards in a weird sort of way.

When asked about it by Dylan Ratigan, I said that everyone discussing the “immigration problem” was ignoring the elephant in the middle of the room: marijuana prohibition. It’s channeling millions in drug money into the Mexican cartels, and represents 60% of all cartel profits. That money gets used to finance violence not only at the border but in over 200 cities across the United States where they currently have a presence — up from 100 cities three years earlier.

While the Ariziona situation is being called “immigration problem,” it’s more accurately a drug war problem. The shooting that triggered the Arizona law was related to marijuana smuggling, not migrant workers. But rather than using it as an excuse to further erode civil liberties (as the Arizona law does), or ramp up militarization of the border with billions in taxpayer dollars that only serves to escalate the problem, the quite obvious solution seems to be to de-fund the cartels by legalizing marijuana.

As Markos said, “SB 1070 does nothing to deal with the violent drug smuggling at the border.”

The money that now goes to the cartels, with which they buy weapons and fund criminal enterprises of all sorts, could instead be paying teacher salaries and going into the coffers of states that badly need the revenue to meet their budgets. Legalization could generate $1.4 billion in revenues in California alone if it’s taxed at the same rate as alcohol. And that money would come straight out of the pockets of the cartels.


Want to Defuse the Mexican Border Problem? Legalize Marijuana

I also think that the arguments made for and against drug legalization are very similar to the arguments made for and against prostitution. The people for legalization like to argue in the cleanest sense - "two consenting adults... with an exchange of money...", or "on a vacation or on a weekend... in the privacy of a basement..."


In a way it is, but legalizing prostitution has not been successful at stopping the rights of those who are involved in the trade, and is rampant with human trafficking. The best model we have for this is Sweden's:

In 1999, after years of research and study, Sweden passed legislation that a) criminalizes the buying of sex, and b) decriminalizes the selling of sex.

This Swedish experiment is the single, solitary example in a significant sized population of a prostitution policy that works. In 2003, the Scottish government in looking to revamp its own approach to prostitution enlisted the University of London to do a comprehensive analysis of outcomes of prostitution policies in other countries. In addition to reviewing Sweden's program, the researchers chose Australia, Ireland, and the Netherlands to represent various strategies of legalizing and/or regulating prostitution. The researchers did not review the situation where prostitution is criminalized across the board as it is in the US. The outcome of that approach is already well known. The failures and futility of the revolving door of arresting and rearresting prostitutes is all too familiar the world over.

But the outcomes, as revealed in the Univ. of London study, in the states under review that had legalized or regulated prostitution were found to be just as discouraging or even more discouraging than the traditional all round criminalization. In each case the results were dramatic in the negative.

Legalization and/or regulation of prostitution, according to the study, led to:

A dramatic increase in all facets of the sex industry,
A dramatic increase in the involvement of organized crime in the sex industry,
A dramatic increase in child prostitution,
An explosion in the number of foreign women and girls trafficked into the region, and
Indications of an increase in violence against women.
In the state of Victoria, Australia, where a system of legalized, regulated brothels was established, there was such an explosion in the number of brothels that it immediately overwhelmed the system's ability to regulate them, and just as quickly these brothels became a mire of organized crime, corruption, and related crimes. In addition, surveys of the prostitutes working under systems of legalization and regulation find that the prostitutes themselves continue to feel coerced, forced, and unsafe in the business.

A survey of legal prostitutes under the showcase Netherlands legalization policy finds that 79% say they want to get out of the sex business. And though each of the legalization/regulation programs promised help for prostitutes who want to leave prostitution, that help never materialized to any meaningful degree. In contrast, in Sweden the government followed through with ample social services funds to help those prostitutes who wanted to get out. 60% of the prostitutes in Sweden took advantage of the well funded programs and succeeded in exiting prostitution.*


http://www.justicewo.../cj_sweden.html

#88
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The funniest part about "Legalize it, regulate it, tax the crap out of it" is how the argument ignores the fact that there is an entire black market of people already buying, selling, transporting, etc. They don't care about the law, why do you think they'd start caring once it is legal?


There's a black market BECAUSE of prohibition. Have you even heard of Al Capone?

Also, you're not a libertarian.



There is also a large black market in tobacco and Alcohol currently, even though it is legal. You cannot tell me they are there because of phoibi... never mind.


Really? Maybe in Appalachia and Tennessee for grain alcohol and moonshine (things that are illegal in many surrounding areas). But people aren't killing each other over it because there is little demand for it. Seriously, where is this black market for alcohol and tobacco.



If you don't know about a subject, don't try to argue about it.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10138617
http://news.bbc.co.u...and/8285307.stm
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14375153
http://www.bbc.co.uk...tshire-13875455
http://www.bbc.co.uk...kshire-13792224
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-12456360
http://www.bbc.co.uk...surrey-12051029

That was simply from a single search of the BBc news website under 'fake alcohol', taking the top results.

The black market for tobacco and Alcohol is huge, leading to many deaths and injuries. Can you give proof that would not happen if marijuana was to be legal?
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#89
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A better way to look at it: why would the cartels be content paying taxes? They could just do what they do already and even better, since now their sellers won't be arrested for possession.
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#90
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^Not gonna add much, i'm probably for legalization of weed.
But i can't say in my view our sex-buying laws and penalties are as they should be, since in some cases people have gotten a longer jail sentence for buying sex than surprising someone on the street.
That being said, i'm for it to be legalized, but i guess you always have Germany and Austria nearby.

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#91
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The funniest part about "Legalize it, regulate it, tax the crap out of it" is how the argument ignores the fact that there is an entire black market of people already buying, selling, transporting, etc. They don't care about the law, why do you think they'd start caring once it is legal?


There's a black market BECAUSE of prohibition. Have you even heard of Al Capone?

Also, you're not a libertarian.



There is also a large black market in tobacco and Alcohol currently, even though it is legal. You cannot tell me they are there because of phoibi... never mind.


Really? Maybe in Appalachia and Tennessee for grain alcohol and moonshine (things that are illegal in many surrounding areas). But people aren't killing each other over it because there is little demand for it. Seriously, where is this black market for alcohol and tobacco.



If you don't know about a subject, don't try to argue about it.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10138617
http://news.bbc.co.u...and/8285307.stm
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14375153
http://www.bbc.co.uk...tshire-13875455
http://www.bbc.co.uk...kshire-13792224
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-12456360
http://www.bbc.co.uk...surrey-12051029

That was simply from a single search of the BBc news website under 'fake alcohol', taking the top results.

The black market for tobacco and Alcohol is huge, leading to many deaths and injuries. Can you give proof that would not happen if marijuana was to be legal?


It's not a problem in America, or any other country as far as I can tell. In fact, I've never even heard of "fake alcohol."

What I do know is that there isn't a rampant problem of organized criminal outlets making "fake alcohol" or tobacco like there is for illegal drugs. Perhaps it's something your government is doing wrong, I don't know.

#92
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http://norml.org/ind...=3418#question5


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#93
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It's not a problem in America, or any other country as far as I can tell. In fact, I've never even heard of "fake alcohol."

What I do know is that there isn't a rampant problem of organized criminal outlets making "fake alcohol" or tobacco like there is for illegal drugs. Perhaps it's something your government is doing wrong, I don't know.


Then you have not bothered looking. A quick Google search can show you it is a growing problem in many countries such as China and South American countries. Just because you have not heard about certain criminality does not mean it is not there and is not of concern, it just means that it is not publicised enough in your area or in the media you navigate.

It may not be as rampant, but that is because people can get both legally. This however doesn't mean that legality stops the criminality surrounding it, much like it would not stop much of the criminality around legalised Marijuana.
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#94
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The funniest part about "Legalize it, regulate it, tax the crap out of it" is how the argument ignores the fact that there is an entire black market of people already buying, selling, transporting, etc. They don't care about the law, why do you think they'd start caring once it is legal?


There's a black market BECAUSE of prohibition.

Yes, and there would be even if it was legalized. If I can buy cheap weed now illegally and not get caught, why in hell would I buy the same weed legally for more money? I'm not getting in trouble either way...

TANSTAAFL


#95
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The funniest part about "Legalize it, regulate it, tax the crap out of it" is how the argument ignores the fact that there is an entire black market of people already buying, selling, transporting, etc. They don't care about the law, why do you think they'd start caring once it is legal?


There's a black market BECAUSE of prohibition.

Yes, and there would be even if it was legalized. If I can buy cheap weed now illegally and not get caught, why in hell would I buy the same weed legally for more money? I'm not getting in trouble either way...


To eliminate the fear and risk of getting caught and allowing people to avoid paranoia. I'd rather pay more and have it legal. Decriminalization is stupid because if it's legal to have it and use it, why should it be illegal to make it?
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#96
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The funniest part about "Legalize it, regulate it, tax the crap out of it" is how the argument ignores the fact that there is an entire black market of people already buying, selling, transporting, etc. They don't care about the law, why do you think they'd start caring once it is legal?


There's a black market BECAUSE of prohibition.

Yes, and there would be even if it was legalized. If I can buy cheap weed now illegally and not get caught, why in hell would I buy the same weed legally for more money? I'm not getting in trouble either way...


To eliminate the fear and risk of getting caught and allowing people to avoid paranoia. I'd rather pay more and have it legal. Decriminalization is stupid because if it's legal to have it and use it, why should it be illegal to make it?

In this scenario, it's not illegal for my dealer to be in possession of weed, and it's not illegal for me to be in possession of weed. So the only illegal action is a single transaction, which hundreds of thousands of people make every single day without getting caught right now. I see no risk in doing it the illegal way.

TANSTAAFL


#97
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The problem with marijuana is that, unlike alcohol or tobacco, one use is enough to set off some sort of neurological reaction (I've not looked into the science of it) that has severe effects on mental health, sometimes even as bad as schizophrenia.


It's not quite like that. The only way you'll get schizophrenia from it is if you already had the genetics for it. If you never had a predisposition for it, you can't get it. Marijuana justs brings it on a little earlier.

The point being that quite a few people have the genetics for it (some NHS reports say as many as 1 in 5, though I'm sceptical of that). Alcohol and tobacco, though dangerous, don't have the same short term risk associated with them. It also brings it on significantly earlier, in some cases decades earlier.


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#98
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The problem with marijuana is that, unlike alcohol or tobacco, one use is enough to set off some sort of neurological reaction (I've not looked into the science of it) that has severe effects on mental health, sometimes even as bad as schizophrenia.


It's not quite like that. The only way you'll get schizophrenia from it is if you already had the genetics for it. If you never had a predisposition for it, you can't get it. Marijuana justs brings it on a little earlier.

The point being that quite a few people have the genetics for it (some NHS reports say as many as 1 in 5, though I'm sceptical of that). Alcohol and tobacco, though dangerous, don't have the same short term risk associated with them. It also brings it on significantly earlier, in some cases decades earlier.


Okay. Shouldn't it be each person's choice to do it or not? Alcohol and tobacco and probably fast food are worse than cannabis, but they are legal. If you can be responsible with it, why should it not be your choice?
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The problem with marijuana is that, unlike alcohol or tobacco, one use is enough to set off some sort of neurological reaction (I've not looked into the science of it) that has severe effects on mental health, sometimes even as bad as schizophrenia.


It's not quite like that. The only way you'll get schizophrenia from it is if you already had the genetics for it. If you never had a predisposition for it, you can't get it. Marijuana justs brings it on a little earlier.

The point being that quite a few people have the genetics for it (some NHS reports say as many as 1 in 5, though I'm sceptical of that). Alcohol and tobacco, though dangerous, don't have the same short term risk associated with them. It also brings it on significantly earlier, in some cases decades earlier.


Okay. Shouldn't it be each person's choice to do it or not? Alcohol and tobacco and probably fast food are worse than cannabis, but they are legal. If you can be responsible with it, why should it not be your choice?


No. Governments and law enforcers have the responsibility to look after the safety of it's citizens, from both internal dangers and external. The danger may be low, but it still has the possibility of danger. I can be responsible with a chainsaw but walking through a city centre with it will get me arrested. I accept that I don't have the choice because it is for the protection of civilians that the police enforce things.
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#100
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The funniest part about "Legalize it, regulate it, tax the crap out of it" is how the argument ignores the fact that there is an entire black market of people already buying, selling, transporting, etc. They don't care about the law, why do you think they'd start caring once it is legal?


There's a black market BECAUSE of prohibition. Have you even heard of Al Capone?

Also, you're not a libertarian.



There is also a large black market in tobacco and Alcohol currently, even though it is legal. You cannot tell me they are there because of phoibi... never mind.

"dry" counties, age requirements. Crime over prohibited items shows that people are going to do what they want and punishing for them is a waste of resources for any society to spend on.




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