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San Francisco set to vote on becoming Anti-Semitic


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Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/05/19/circumcision-ban-appear-san-francisco-ballot/#ixzz1MotVEcqb

 

[hide=quoted article for those that refuse to visit foxnews.com]

A proposal to ban the circumcision of male children in San Francisco has been cleared to appear on the November ballot, setting the stage for the nation's first public vote on what has long been considered a private family matter.

 

But even in a city with a long-held reputation for pushing boundaries, the measure is drawing heavy fire. Opponents are lining up against it, saying a ban on a religious rite considered sacred by Jews and Muslims is a blatant violation of constitutional rights.

 

Elections officials confirmed Wednesday the initiative had qualified for the ballot with more than 7,700 valid signatures from city residents. Initiatives must have at least 7,168 names to qualify.

 

If the measure passes, circumcision would be prohibited among males under the age of 18. The practice would become a misdemeanor offense punishable by a fine of up to $1,000 or up to one year in jail. There would be no religious exemptions.

 

The proposed ban appears to be the first in the country to make it this far, though a larger national debate over the health benefits of circumcision has been going on for many years. Banning circumcision would almost certainly prompt a flurry of legal challenges alleging violations of the First Amendment's guarantee of the freedom to exercise one's religious beliefs.

 

Supporters of the ban say male circumcision is a form of genital mutilation that is unnecessary, extremely painful and even dangerous. They say parents should not be able to force the decision on their young child.

 

"Parents are really guardians, and guardians have to do what's in the best interest of the child. It's his body. It's his choice," said Lloyd Schofield, the measure's lead proponent and a longtime San Francisco resident. He added the cutting away of the foreskin from the penis is a more invasive medical procedure than many new parents or childless individuals realize.

 

But opponents say such claims are alarmingly misleading, and call the proposal a clear violation of constitutionally protected religious freedoms.

 

"For a city that's renowned for being progressive and open-minded, to even have to consider such an intolerant proposition ... it sets a dangerous precedent for all cities and states," said Rabbi Gil Yosef Leeds of Berkeley. Leeds is a certified "mohel," the person who traditionally performs ritual circumcisions in the Jewish faith.

 

He said for the past few months he has been receiving daily phone calls from members of the local Jewish community who are concerned about the proposed ban. But he said he is relatively confident that even if the measure is approved, it will be abruptly -- and indefinitely -- tied up in litigation.

 

Jews consider religious male circumcision a commandment from God. It also is widely practiced by Muslims, and while it does not appear in the Quran it is mentioned in the Sunnah, the sayings of the Prophet Muhammad. Most Christian denominations neither required nor forbid circumcision.

 

The initiative's backers say its progress is the biggest success story to date in a decades-old, nationwide movement by so-called "intactivists" to end circumcision of male infants in the United States. A similar effort by the Tarrytown, N.Y.-based group Intact America to introduce a circumcision ban in the Massachusetts Legislature last year failed to gain traction.

 

"It's been kind of under the radar until now, but it was a conversation that needed to happen," Schofield said of the debate over male circumcision. "We've tapped into a spark with our measure -- something that's been going on for a long time."

 

Schofield's group calls its initiative the San Francisco Male Genital Mutilation bill, though he said the city attorney has opted to call the measure "Male Circumcision" on the ballot. The group's official website features a picture of a wide-eyed, delighted-looking baby and urges visitors to help "protect ALL infants and children in San Francisco from the pain and harm caused by forced genital cutting."

 

International health organizations have promoted circumcision as an important strategy for reducing the spread of the AIDS virus. That's based on studies that showed it can prevent AIDS among heterosexual men in Africa.

 

But there hasn't been the same kind of push for circumcision in the U.S., in part because nearly 80 percent of American men are already circumcised, a much higher proportion than the worldwide average of 30 percent. Also, HIV spreads mainly among gay men in the U.S., and research indicates circumcision doesn't protect gay men from HIV.

 

For years, federal health officials have been working on recommendations regarding circumcision. The effort was sparked by studies that found circumcision is partially effective in preventing the virus' spread between women and men. The recommendations are still being developed, and there is no date set for their release, said a spokeswoman for the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

 

The CDC doesn't have a position on the San Francisco proposal, said the spokeswoman, Elizabeth-Ann Chandler.

 

The chief of pediatric urology at the University of California, San Francisco Benioff Children's Hospital said he remains neutral on the subject of circumcision when parents come to him seeking advice. Dr. Laurence Baskin said he instead tries to educate them about the medical benefits and potential downsides of the procedure.

 

In addition to the AIDS studies, Baskin cited published research indicating that circumcision can reduce the incidence of other sexually transmitted diseases, as well as penile cancer and urinary tract infections. He disputed claims that circumcision is mutilation or causes significant pain.

 

"It has what I would say would be a minimal amount of pain if done properly, so my recommendation is to use anesthesia," he said. However, he noted, "most people aren't circumcised and they do just fine."

 

Baskin was not neutral on the subject of the new ballot measure, calling it "a bunch of nonsense."

 

"I'm not going to stop doing circumcisions, and this would never pass the First Amendment test," he said. "The people who are doing this should focus on our budget problems, lack of education -- something that could really help society."

[/hide]

 

This will force Jewish parents into back alleys with butter knives and...

In all seriousness though, I think there's a discussion to be had on the limits you can reasonably place on religious belief, where you draw the line on what's reasonable or not, etc.

 

I'll post my opinion later.

 

 

Discuss.

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Just another attempt to push forward a law that some people want to see. I don't see an issue with circumcision at all from my point of view. I don't think it'll go far let alone pass.

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Overall, I don't think circumcision is bad enough to warrant being illegal. I don't think it's necessary or useful, but it's an individual choice.

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I immediately thought of this (what the baby says):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WqtHAqL1olI

 

To be honest, it should be passed as what happens to the childs' own body should be up to the child himself. If you're going to raise the child in a Jewish/Muslim household following these beliefs then there should be no problem if this law is passed as when the child reaches the proposed legal age they can choose for themselves to have it done in honour of their beliefs.

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but it's an individual choice.

I'll say the vast, vast, vast majority it is not personal choice, for infants and small children are too small to give consent to everything. They can't consent to anything in fact.

 

 

But hell, I don't care. But since it does piss of religious folk, I hope it passes.

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I haven't read the article so what I say may not be 100% valid, however I think many people believe that circumcision is fairly cruel especially to newly born children with no choice in the matter and that despite it is strongly connected to some people's beliefs this should not mean that those people should be wavered from obeying a code of morality that most other people accept or doing something unreasonable and unnecessary. Again I haven't read the article and I don't exactly know what the law is but from what the others posted a ban on circumcision is not anti-Semitic.

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What are the advantages of circumcision anyway? I only know of one - The reduced risk of HIV/other STD's.

The medical advantages are debatable. Really, I think it's more of a cultural thing than a procedure with actual medical benefit.

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There is no need to ban it, doing so is just intolerant of their beliefs. I'm surprised such a Liberal city has put forward such a thing.

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There is no need to ban it, doing so is just intolerant of their beliefs. I'm surprised such a Liberal city has put forward such a thing.

I'm not. Increasingly I've seen the supposedly tolerant left decide to be intolerant when it comes to things like this.

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As much as it will draw fire, I can see where they were trying to go with this. Female circumcision is also held up as a religious belief in various, extremist, parts of the world, yet we don't allow that. Why should male circumcision be any different just because it's less invasive. Just because it's religious tradition? Religious traditions used to dictate that we sacrifice animals (and in some places people) to our gods as well, yet when was the last time anyone saw that happen?

 

On the up side, if this passes it opens a lot of doors for putting down religious practices that are potentially harmful or dangerous. I'm thinking mostly of the Christian Science belief of refusing medical treatment and replacing it with prayer.

 

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Oh yeah, being anti-semitic for wanting to ban circumcision. It should be decided when the person is old enough if any.

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Oh yeah, being anti-semitic for wanting to ban circumcision. It should be decided when the person is old enough if any.

If you want to pull that card, why allow parents to make any body-related decisions for their children at all?

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Oh yeah, being anti-semitic for wanting to ban circumcision. It should be decided when the person is old enough if any.

If you want to pull that card, why allow parents to make any body-related decisions for their children at all?

Oh for christ sake, circumcision is a choice that should be decided by the guy himself when he is old enough, not due to religious or whatever belief, unless it's a medical situation.

This is my, so it seems, crazy viewpoint on this forum.

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Oh yeah, being anti-semitic for wanting to ban circumcision. It should be decided when the person is old enough if any.

If you want to pull that card, why allow parents to make any body-related decisions for their children at all?

Oh for christ sake, circumcision is a choice that should be decided by the guy himself when he is old enough, not due to religious or whatever belief, unless it's a medical situation.

This is my, so it seems, crazy viewpoint on this forum.

Why?

 

I asked you a question, you basically just answered "because".

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Oh yeah, being anti-semitic for wanting to ban circumcision. It should be decided when the person is old enough if any.

If you want to pull that card, why allow parents to make any body-related decisions for their children at all?

They should be allowed to make positive body-related decisions to become healthy. A circumcision does not provide any health benefits and it's more of an accessory operation like plastic surgery.

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Oh yeah, being anti-semitic for wanting to ban circumcision. It should be decided when the person is old enough if any.

If you want to pull that card, why allow parents to make any body-related decisions for their children at all?

They should be allowed to make positive body-related decisions to become healthy. A circumcision does not provide any health benefits and it's more of an accessory operation like plastic surgery.

Parents are allowed to make decisions like plastic surgery for their kids.

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Circumcision can be a very dangerous, and far more painful process after infancy. Many deaths over the ages in war have been attributed to the foreskin and the difficulty in cleaning. Also, foreskins feature prominently in the Bible. Why is any of this relevant? Because why the [bleep] should a city care what happens to a child's penis? It's a family decision. The procedure isn't painful (surprisingly, trained anesthesiologists are pretty good at their job), mostly because nobody will remember it. I'm circumcised, and I hardly even knew what that meant until a few years ago. There are far more pressing matters than penis skin.

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I hope this doesn't go through actually because if it spreads it would make the jewish man in ASDA joke far less amusing.

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Oh yeah, being anti-semitic for wanting to ban circumcision. It should be decided when the person is old enough if any.

If you want to pull that card, why allow parents to make any body-related decisions for their children at all?

Oh for christ sake, circumcision is a choice that should be decided by the guy himself when he is old enough, not due to religious or whatever belief, unless it's a medical situation.

This is my, so it seems, crazy viewpoint on this forum.

 

I'm glad my parents decided to get mine done as an infant. If you wait until the person is conscious enough to make the personal choice, that would mean he's now reached the point where circumcision is more painful, difficult, dangerous, and will now actually be aware of the not so comfortable experience.

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Oh yeah, being anti-semitic for wanting to ban circumcision. It should be decided when the person is old enough if any.

If you want to pull that card, why allow parents to make any body-related decisions for their children at all?

They should be allowed to make positive body-related decisions to become healthy. A circumcision does not provide any health benefits and it's more of an accessory operation like plastic surgery.

Parents are allowed to make decisions like plastic surgery for their kids.

Just because they can, doesn't mean they should be allowed to.

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Looking at this thread, the only people who have had the procedure (is that what you would call it?) Support it, and do not support the vote.

 

Then, it seems as if it is only those who would never have it done, never have had it done and are of other faiths which support it. Those who have had it done do not seem as fussed. Seems a bit judgemental. Those who it won't effect having all the say, doesn't seem right.

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Oh yeah, being anti-semitic for wanting to ban circumcision. It should be decided when the person is old enough if any.

If you want to pull that card, why allow parents to make any body-related decisions for their children at all?

They should be allowed to make positive body-related decisions to become healthy. A circumcision does not provide any health benefits and it's more of an accessory operation like plastic surgery.

Parents are allowed to make decisions like plastic surgery for their kids.

Just because they can, doesn't mean they should be allowed to.

To Y Guy I'm not sure of the rules where you live but in Britain a parent cannot enforce cosmetic plastic surgery on their child. Of course they make decisions on the like of skin grats etc.. But I am almost 100% sure that cosmetic surgery is prohibited for under 16's.

 

Also just seeing Dan's I think you have a valid point however for choice of better word - people who have had the procedure and belong to a faith that carries it out - have been indoctrinated they see it as normal although it may not necessarily of been the best choice for them or something that should of been done to them without their own consent.

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Oh yeah, being anti-semitic for wanting to ban circumcision. It should be decided when the person is old enough if any.

If you want to pull that card, why allow parents to make any body-related decisions for their children at all?

Oh for christ sake, circumcision is a choice that should be decided by the guy himself when he is old enough, not due to religious or whatever belief, unless it's a medical situation.

This is my, so it seems, crazy viewpoint on this forum.

 

I'm glad my parents decided to get mine done as an infant. If you wait until the person is conscious enough to make the personal choice, that would mean he's now reached the point where circumcision is more painful, difficult, dangerous, and will now actually be aware of the not so comfortable experience.

 

circumcision is more painful, difficult, dangerous, and will now actually be aware of the not so comfortable experience.

 

So circumcision is a painful, difficult, dangerous, uncomfortable medical procedure that is FORCED upon a very young child.

 

The benefits of circumcision are miniscule in a first world country like the United States. It IS forced mutilation. In many places, forced mutilation is considered torture.

 

Let's say I create a religion which follows our god saying that we must cut off our big toes. Nobody would allow or support it. But they support and allow circumcision...

 

TL;DR Circumcision is (in the way it is done without consent of the victim) a human rights violation.

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