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Racheya

Tip.It Times - 22nd May 2011

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Time for a new release of the: >>>Tip.It Times!<<<

 

I'd like to remind people of the rules pertaining to Times threads:

 

[hide=Read these rules before posting in this thread]

Rampant flame wars have taken control of virtually every week's times discussion topics. The following guidelines must be followed when posting on this topic. Posts that ignore these guidelines will be removed.

 

1. You are invited and welcome to express like or dislike on articles and a particular author's writing style. It is not acceptable, however, to flame or personally insult an author. Posts that aren't anything but an attack will be removed from the topic.

 

2. Spelling and grammar errors can be reported to Racheya by PMing her and they will be fixed promptly. It is not necessary to post them on the discussion topic.

 

3. Off topic posts that do not discuss the content of that week's articles will be removed. This is not the place to discuss the direction of the times, how much you love or hate the times, etc. Off topic posts will be removed.

 

By keeping within these guidelines, Times discussion topics will mean more for the Panel and Administration than just a place for flame wars. Flame wars do not provide any useful feedback to the Times, which is mainly what we're aiming for with these topics: feedback.

 

This policy is effective as of now, November 17, 2010. Any posts prior to the creation of this policy may or may not be removed according to the new guidelines.

[/hide]

 

When replying please make sure to clarify the article you are replying to! Thanks!

 

If you spot any typos or mistakes in the article then please PM them to me :)

 

Enjoy the articles!


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I edit for the [Tip.It Times]. I rarely write in [My Blog]. I am an [Ex-Moderator].

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This is where the incentive to bot comes from: the motivation that players get from Jagex.

 

Although skillcapes are indeed incentive for players to get 99s, I don't believe they encourage botting as much as other issues. The massive increase in bots after the trade limits were removed would imply that people mainly bot for other reasons. RWT and creating cash are probably high on that list, but that doesn't mean 99s are botted because RWTers all want skillcapes.

 

It's good to remember that RWT does not equal botting by definition.

 

However, I do agree that the completist cape would encourage people to bot for it. The amount of castle wars games required is mind-boggling.

 

What's also interesting, is that we can assume Jagex adds these capes to keep players playing the game (by providing goals), yet if they encourage botting as a side effect, are they worth it?


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angel2w.gif Tip.It Website Crew Leader

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I love it how Jafje comes outa nowhere and answers my questions

Hehe now we know what real life does...drugs, drugs, more drugs. Thank god we are addicted to something that won't kill us.

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Interesting articles. My congratulations to the writers, both of them :)

 

I will only comment on the second article, and state that i do not believe skill capes are a major influence in the botting activity. That is mostly because of the increase in popularity of the game. The place where the articles strikes home, however, is that players have indeed 'alienated' themselves a bit because of these capes. The temptation is great, especially with the completionist cape and the new range of capes going from level 10 to 99. It is quite fun to have those capes, they look posh and what not, but the effort required to get them is not worth it, in my opinion, unless ofcourse you enjoy the journey it ensues.


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That being said, a large part of botting implies that a bot would be better suited for the task than a human....if they made it so a human's abilities were played up and it weren't so reliant on the "grind", it wouldn't be as useful to bot.


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Both articles this week were pretty good; the second one caught my eye more.

 

I'll only speak in broad terms about the matter - Jagex seems to encourage botting indirectly by offering rewards (skillcapes) for tedious grinding. In reality it's reasonable to get all of the capes without grinding, but in practice, that which is tedious is often automated.


Linux User/Enthusiast Full-Stack Software Engineer | Stack Overflow Member | GIMP User
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...Alright, the Elf City update lured me back to RS over a year ago.

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The game isn't dying because of skillcapes.

 

Correlation =/= causation.


PM me in game anytime

 

It's a lot easier then that for an idiot to sound smart on the internet.

 

That's exactly what you're doing right now... just saying.

 

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This is where the incentive to bot comes from: the motivation that players get from Jagex.

 

Although skillcapes are indeed incentive for players to get 99s, I don't believe they encourage botting as much as other issues. The massive increase in bots after the trade limits were removed would imply that people mainly bot for other reasons. RWT and creating cash are probably high on that list, but that doesn't mean 99s are botted because RWTers all want skillcapes.

 

It's good to remember that RWT does not equal botting by definition.

 

However, I do agree that the completist cape would encourage people to bot for it. The amount of castle wars games required is mind-boggling.

 

What's also interesting, is that we can assume Jagex adds these capes to keep players playing the game (by providing goals), yet if they encourage botting as a side effect, are they worth it?

 

 

true but what do you spend you gp on? i always used to buy d bones and herbs... :???:

 

basically the incentive for rwt is people who buy gp wich they use to grind 99's wich they want to "show off" with skill capes so i tottally agree with the article -.-

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I totally agree with The Skillcape Killed Runescape; bots were prevalent before RWT, I'm sorry "free trade", was reintroduced because people were trying to grind their way to a 99 so they could get a skillcape and show off how hard they "worked". Is that Jagex's fault? Of course not; show me a RPG that doesn't involve some form of training to get your character to a high level. RuneScape just happens to do it for 25 skills instead of a handful.

 

I will object to one point, however:

Skillcapes, then, are the only motivation for people to get 99s.

How then would you explain the number of F2P lifers with not one, but several 99's? I myself am working on getting one (eventually, it's coming. No, really. :lol: ) and am doing it for nothing more than the challenge it ensues.

 

As for Implications of a Long, I think removing the xp cap would only usher in a new era of competing for the highest rank in a skill and simply bring more bots into the game as more and more players would be trying to get ranked higher than all their friends.


 

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THE place for all free players to connect, hang out and talk about how awesome it is to be F2P.

So, Kaida is the real version of every fictional science-badass? That explains a lot, actually...

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First article was cool; Didn't read the second article because I heavily disagreed to the title and already knew where that would lead.


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Should be noted that in the first article it says 120 is 103m, when in actuality its 104.2m.

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Both articles were really good.

 

I perfectly understand the first one, as I am a computer programmer myself.

The language I use (Basic, 1980''s) lol, has a short 32,767, a single, 7 digits, and a long 15 digits.

Back then, hard disks held minimum storage, so you had to work your way around saving space.

 

So I sure understand the constraint they had at first.

 

 

As for the 2nd article, I've been playing since 2003, and yes! the game sure has changed.

It used to be, for me, fishing a bit, mining a bit. then stitting around with friends, chatting.

 

No longer. It's 'give me an hour, getting xx level soon'. The friendship part is still there, but different

 

Don't get me wrong, I still love the game, but it has changed a lot.

 

Evolution you think? lol.


Andre the Giant (Gentle Giant)

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Should be noted that in the first article it says 120 is 103m, when in actuality its 104.2m.

I don't know why I thought that. Thanks.


99 dungeoneering achieved, thanks to everyone that celebrated with me!

 

♪♪ Don't interrupt me as I struggle to complete this thought
Have some respect for someone more forgetful than yourself ♪♪

♪♪ And I'm not done
And I won't be till my head falls off ♪♪

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129-130-741-62750608

 

I saw the second article on RSOF, I did not find the author's evidence sufficient to prove his claims. The author goes into more depth about it on RSOF, so if you truly enjoyed the article then you can check out the original.

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If Jagex came out with a fool proof method of detecting and banning every single player that had ever used a bot. Then I feel that both increasing max XP and introducing more rewards similar to the skill cape, would be fantastic additions to the game. Not to mention if they managed this the hi-scores would look a lot more reasonable. :)


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I have to agree with the skillcape issue. I have a friend who's spending hours on end standing around in the G.E. buying himself a fletching skillcape. Yea, that sounds like fun. <_< I may have a few skillcapes but they were all acheved unintentionally & without grinding for hours on end. I could have my firemaking cape tonight since I'm only 90k xp away from it but I'm not going to senselessly grind away at it to get it.

 

I managed to pull my buddy away for a little bit with the promise that I'd provide our disease protection as we thieved coffins in Jig Gig. Within 1/2 an hour the urge to go back to grinding for that cape overwhelmed him.

 

Worse yet is the fact that he's buying all those logs which just supports the bot industry. :shame:


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Why does every times have to mention botting and rwt? I'm tired of it alredy.

You really have nothing else to write about?


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Quest cape achieved on 7/11/2010.

You'd have to be some sort of masochist to want to be a forum moderator on the RSOF. They're honestly better off, imo.

 

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Why does every times have to mention botting and rwt? I'm tired of it alredy.

You really have nothing else to write about?

It's a big issue plaguing RS. It's hardly their fault that the bot/RWT problem is there, they're just writing about it.


 

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THE place for all free players to connect, hang out and talk about how awesome it is to be F2P.

So, Kaida is the real version of every fictional science-badass? That explains a lot, actually...

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I really liked your article Nomad Rogue. Well done :thumbup:

 

I quit playing Runescape because of the path called "Grinding". And a classmate of mine said "Why do you play Runescape? IT*S A GRIND GAME!". I did not understand where he was coming from back then, because Runescape had a mild form of grinding. But with Completionist cape and Max, i now understand him better.

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Why does every times have to mention botting and rwt? I'm tired of it alredy.

You really have nothing else to write about?

 

Although it's beating a dead horse per say, it is as important as 26king used to be. There were countless articles in regards to the inflation and problems it was causing, and they were all relative and immediate. Moreover, it's a topic which will draw discussion among the community and that is one the goals when we write.

 

There is plenty to write about within RuneScape, but we choose to pick the current issues at hand and address them. Sometimes a new opinion by an author or bringing an old opinion to light is enough to spark intelligent discussion of the topic, and that is what we love :P.

 

On a different note, very nice articles this week; both were good reads. :)

 

Good DYK this week as well.


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670th to 99 Smithing July 21st, 07 |743rd to 99 Mining November 29th, 07 | 649th to 99 Runecrafting May 18th, 08 | 29,050th to 99 Defence October 20th, 08 | 20,700th to 99 Magic November 8, 08 | 47,938th to 99 Attack December 19, 08 | 37,829th to 99 Hitpoints December 24, 08 | 68,604th to 99 Strength February 4, 09 | 27,983rd to 99 Range February 9, 09 | 9,725th to 99 Prayer June 8, 09 | 6,620th to 99 Slayer December, 12 09 | 4,075th to 99 Summoning December, 28 09 | 3,551th to 99 Herblore February 24, 10 | 3,192th to 99 Dungeoneering November 11, 10 | 146,600th to 99 Cooking December 29th, 10 | 11,333rd to 99 Construction June 7th, 11 | 16,648th to 99 Farming August 1st, 11 | 19,993th to 99 Crafting August 2nd, 11 | 89,739th to 99 Woodcutting Janurary 1st, 12 | 55,424th to 99 Fishing May 9th, 12| 60,648th to 99 Firemaking May 12th, 12 | 16666th to 99 Agility May 17th, 2012 | 24476th to 99 Hunter June 1st, 2012 | 57,881st to 99 Fletching June 1st, 2012 | All 99s June 1st, 2012 | 3183th to 120 Dungeoneering July 24th, 2012 | 2341st to 2496 Total level July 24th, 2012 | Completionist Cape July 24th, 2012

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Going to address various things in the second article, which looks like a rehash of Capescape V2, honestly.

 

As I message my friends to hang out, I get the typical “Not now man, I’m trying to train!” or “Dude I’m level 96! Gotta get 99 soon!” This begs the question, what caused this change in gameplay? Skillcapes.
there was no content driving me to grind for 99 Fletching aside from bragging to my friends by wearing a cape.

Perhaps this is why your friends are like that, hmm? :P

Not everyone grinds to 99 for bragging rights, too. On a personal level, I train my skills for personal satisfaction, and rising on the highscores is merely icing on the cake.

 

We all know that skills in RuneScape are mindless.

Dungeoneering.

 

Jagex unknowingly gave bots and real world traders every incentive to do their illicit activities.

This isn't a fault of Jagex, but rather the players that want the capes so they can go

bragging to [their] friends
despite putting in no personal effort whatsoever. Makes you wonder where their self respect is, doesn't it?

Not saying you do if that isn't clear, but that's my perception of the botter psyche.

 

Many players are mere shells of what they once were as for hours on end they repeat the same task merely for a cape. This is what is truly doing damage to the community.

What did people actually do before skillcapes came out? Did they actually do nothing but play together with their friends all the time?

Compare old school melee training, such as in the Legends' Guild with shadow warriors, with today's Slayer, in various locations. Both give interaction with other players and I generally find myself still talking to other people during tasks. Same as back then, they'd train for hours on end so that they could get to 126 combat, how is that different from owning a few melee capes?

 

We are now playing a dying game. Internet Research company Alexa has shown a 32% decrease in pageviews of Runescape.com over the last 3 months.

Thanks for my weekly dose of doomsaying, as usual.

 

There is nothing more we can do, except: play the game for fun,

Already doing that.

hang out with your friends more,

Already doing that in Dungeoneering.

be inviting to new players,

Already doing that with new clan members in DG.

do not demean players for not having a certain skillcape,

Are you serious?

and STOP WORRYING ABOUT 99s.

WHAT, ME WORRY?


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In real life MMO you don't get 99 smithing by making endless bronze daggers.

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Hmm...

 

The first article used terminology that I, not being a particularly computer-literate person, didn't understand, but for the most parts it was talking about the effects of increasing the cash/xp limit, which are things that I can understand. :) In that sense it was a very well written and balanced article. Personally I'm in favour of Jagex increasing the xp limit because I don't like the feeling of a skill being "closed off" in a sense by you getting 200m in it. I hadn't thought of the implications for people who play to maximise the bank value though and I agree that it would have a similar effect.

 

The second article is one whose basic premise I agree with and is a point that I have been arguing for for a long time. However I don't see the completionist cape encouraging botting like skill capes did (anyone who wants proof of how skill capes have done this need only look at people botting away at stats like agility above the very low levels). Why not? Mainly because from most players' perspectives the completionist cape wouldnt even be in the picture until after maxing, and a bot maxing is a very rare event indeed. But also because bots thrive off activities that lots of people would want to do that are repetitive. The tasks required for the completionist cape, however, are for the most part non-repetitive things that most bots wouldnt want to do. This means that the bot makers would have a very small market indeed - not enough to justify making a bot for. What about the 5k cwars games? Well that already has a cape for it. So why aren't there already botters there going for that cape? After all, getting the trim is futile if you can't get the cape yet! I know there are people afking for the 5k games after the release of this cape, solely for the cape itself, but such actions are futile and, to be honest, just a bit silly.

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true but what do you spend you gp on? i always used to buy d bones and herbs... :???:

 

basically the incentive for rwt is people who buy gp wich they use to grind 99's wich they want to "show off" with skill capes so i tottally agree with the article -.-

 

Rares and other valuable items. Some people would bot to sell RS money for actual money, or to use the money to buy partyhats and the likes.


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angel2w.gif Tip.It Website Crew Leader

[hide=Quotes]

I love it how Jafje comes outa nowhere and answers my questions

Hehe now we know what real life does...drugs, drugs, more drugs. Thank god we are addicted to something that won't kill us.

[/hide]

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I'm completely illiterate when it comes to Java, but I wonder...would raising the max cash or max xp cap have any repercussions that are non-market related? What I mean is, would it affect something in the code? Is it as easy as changing the numbers? Or at this point is the game too advanced and are the caps too ingrained to be changed?


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"He could climb to it, if he climbed alone, and once there he could suck on the pap of life, gulp down the incomparable milk of wonder."

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I'm completely illiterate when it comes to Java, but I wonder...would raising the max cash or max xp cap have any repercussions that are non-market related? What I mean is, would it affect something in the code? Is it as easy as changing the numbers? Or at this point is the game too advanced and are the caps too ingrained to be changed?

At the simplest level, anywhere that an item in game is moved around the game engine would have to be accounted for in at least two places, maybe more. Probably the way that game data is sent over the 'net would have to be reworked as well.

 

If they decided to do it, I would not envy the programmer's jobs.


99 dungeoneering achieved, thanks to everyone that celebrated with me!

 

♪♪ Don't interrupt me as I struggle to complete this thought
Have some respect for someone more forgetful than yourself ♪♪

♪♪ And I'm not done
And I won't be till my head falls off ♪♪

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Article on integer sizes:

 

Conceptionally a long is still a restricted set. While your article some valid points on the client end of the changes it ignored the technical end completely. No, a long is not just a bigger int, and cannot just be replaced for it.

 

Firstly java is a strongly typed language. While longs and ints have a level of interchangability it's not just about changing what variables you are using, but changing the variables you are passing too. All string manipulations would have to use a long conversion rather than standard int, all functions passed need changing, and most difficult of all there are some library functions which you cannot change so you have to make conversions to and from int and long every time you call them. In a huge chunk of code that becomes as hard as rewriting the whole thing, take it from someone who has done far too much retrofitting of code in the past.

 

Secondly: a long (aka a 64 bit int) is one of the few poorly supported standards in programming. Remember that runescape has more than just java, but will have C code hosting the core functions on the servers too. Java defines it's long as a 64 int, but doesnt enforce it. C defines it as 32 bit (although a long long int is supposed to be 64 but is not reliable). Only on a 64 bit machine is this the case, on a 32 bit it simply cannot be done. Some compilers will use compound maths, some wont, but as you can guess: any calculations that means breaking the number into two pieces and then trying to use both at he same time is complex. Incidentally, there is a classed called the BigInteger class that is truly limitless. It internally stores large numbers as a series of integers and has all the complex maths functions built in. Would be great for exp, but is fairly clumsy and inflexible to work with sometimes: you have to convert formats for a lot of functions.

 

last (and least): you are talking about adding a huge amount of size onto every account, and slightly increasing access times. To be honest: even rented servers are cheap for extra bulk storage and the server end isnt really the limiter: it's the bandwidth.


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"I hate it when my target's die laughing, makes me think my fly is open or something"

-Me

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